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16 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

Legality isn't a good metric for safety, alcohol and tobacco are both legal. I also think we're conflating cheating with law breaking. You can always say steroids are wrong here in the US but most of the world doesn't have those laws, so it can be cheating and legal, or illegal and not cheating depending on where you're located and what you're competing in.

Like I said.... you are adding a synthetic drug to your body in order to state you are stronger than another. Making impossible gains without them.  Then you have the natural working hard and eating food... never able to reach the juicer.... yet the juicers records exceed the naturals. Definitely wrong in my book. I do believe in moral absolutes.

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climber511

Seriously people are always going to do what they choose to do - we can have a "war on steroids" just like our "war on drugs" in general but we will always have the same results too I think.  You can train alone for years - do all the drugs you want - quit for a period of time and then compete "clean" but still have many of the benefits of the PEDs used in the developmental stages - and no test will ever tell.  I agree we have to try but it seems futile to me.  I do not believe you can make people quit by the fear of getting caught - it just doesn't work.

 

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Just now, climber511 said:

Seriously people are always going to do what they choose to do - we can have a "war on steroids" just like our "war on drugs" in general but we will always have the same results too I think.  You can train alone for years - do all the drugs you want - quit for a period of time and then compete "clean" but still have many of the benefits of the PEDs used in the developmental stages - and no test will ever tell.  I agree we have to try but it seems futile to me.  I do not believe you can make people quit by the fear of getting caught - it just doesn't work.

 

My whole point is the drugger getting records and the naturals being less and the druggers is recognized as legit. That burns me up. Drugs are cheating and should be on the table with natural records and drugged record categories. It’s gotta be separate. 

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Fist of Fury
59 minutes ago, Joseph Sullivan said:

So if there is no test for an illegal substance that makes it not cheating? If I steal from you and I don’t caught caught does that make it right? Because that’s how I see it! You bust your hump as a natural to the best of your ability and you have a drugged up athlete surpass you with minimal effort and that’s ok? Let’s say you want to certify on a COC and you bust your hump for years and you get it... then a drugger comes along and does it in no time... is his achievement as good or equal to yours? I am way more impressed by a Natural deadlifting 700 than a juicer deadlifting 1000.... I’m sorry but I can’t give the credit for it. And if anyone does decide to take ....that is their decision.... but like I said..... I am a purist. The only way I see taking a substance is justifiable is for an older athlete or diagnosed low testosterone athletes to get them up to normal ranges. I have no shame for my view. With all do respect to all..... 

If you have rules against certain substances you need to test for it otherwise it's just verbal masturbation and completely pointless. The reason some federations does not test for drugs is because there is no rules against it, people who run those shows are pro-doping. It's that simple.

If you steal from someone it's the police that should stop you and you should be prosecuted etc. For doping it will be the anti-doping agencies and the federations job to stop you.

There's no unspoken rules or anything like that. You have to walk the talk, if you want to get rid of doping you need to test every athlete at least once every 14 days. This will probably not happen unfortunately, simply beacuse it's too expensive.

My hope is that we find something which is better and more safe than steroids. As I see it, that's the only way steroid usage in sports will stop completely.

As it is now, I think that AW, Strongman, PL and BB is ahead of other sports because they have different federations and classes, so you can compete in the arena where they test you or the non-tested arena. This is way more "clean" and honest. In Olympic sports, there's a lot of doping and there's a lot of athletes who has never taken anything. So that is way more unfair actually. 

The Olympics is a guessing game of which athlete is taking what and who's clean etc. WSM is no guessing game, it's fair and square.

 

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Climber028

This is why I like what body building does, they just have two groups and have tested and untested. I'm totally with you that steroids give a huge advantage but I think we can solve that by being open about it and having separate divisions.

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Fist of Fury
8 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

This is why I like what body building does, they just have two groups and have tested and untested. I'm totally with you that steroids give a huge advantage but I think we can solve that by being open about it and having separate divisions.

Exactly.

Another thing I really don't like is that the debate is so polarized. I have suggested this many times to anti-doping people and they never listen. They always argue that dividing in different classes will never work because it will always be more money in the tested class, thus people will try to cheat. This is just speculation. Judging by David's comment about AW it seems like the opposite is true there, the most prestigious tournament seems to be non-tested.

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23 minutes ago, Fist of Fury said:

If you have rules against certain substances you need to test for it otherwise it's just verbal masturbation and completely pointless. The reason some federations does not test for drugs is because there is no rules against it, people who run those shows are pro-doping. It's that simple.

If you steal from someone it's the police that should stop you and you should be prosecuted etc. For doping it will be the anti-doping agencies and the federations job to stop you.

There's no unspoken rules or anything like that. You have to walk the talk, if you want to get rid of doping you need to test every athlete at least once every 14 days. This will probably not happen unfortunately, simply beacuse it's too expensive.

My hope is that we find something which is better and more safe than steroids. As I see it, that's the only way steroid usage in sports will stop completely.

As it is now, I think that AW, Strongman, PL and BB is ahead of other sports because they have different federations and classes, so you can compete in the arena where they test you or the non-tested arena. This is way more "clean" and honest. In Olympic sports, there's a lot of doping and there's a lot of athletes who has never taken anything. So that is way more unfair actually. 

The Olympics is a guessing game of which athlete is taking what and who's clean etc. WSM is no guessing game, it's fair and square.

 

In my eyes.... and it may mean nothing...... I see zero legitimacy to any records or achievements set while taking steroids. Period. 

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Fist of Fury
1 minute ago, Joseph Sullivan said:

In my eyes.... and it may mean nothing...... I see zero legitimacy to any records or achievements set while taking steroids. Period. 

You're entitled to you opinion, just don't expect everyone to agree with you. There's a lot of people taking steriods and they are not going to stop.

The winner of WSM is obviosly the best man and the legitimacy of his achivement is obvious since it's done fair and square. Regardless of what uninformed people might think.

In my eyes.... And it may mean nothing. I think the winner of WSM or Mr.Olympia is way more legit than almost any Olympic gold medalist. Because we don't really know if it was fair play. History have shown that it seldom is.

 

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22 minutes ago, Fist of Fury said:

You're entitled to you opinion, just don't expect everyone to agree with you. There's a lot of people taking steriods and they are not going to stop.

The winner of WSM is obviosly the best man and the legitimacy of his achivement is obvious since it's done fair and square. Regardless of what uninformed people might think.

In my eyes.... And it may mean nothing. I think the winner of WSM or Mr.Olympia is way more legit than almost any Olympic gold medalist. Because we don't really know if it was fair play. History have shown that it seldom is.

 

I don’t care if anyone agrees. It is what it is.... steroids in any form of use is cheating and not legit in my eyes. Whether it’s bodybuilding, strongman, grip, weightlifting or golf for that matter. No matter how we look at it.... If someone uses drugs and another doesn’t.... we will never know who the better man really was... in my eyes the one who did not use and got strong is the better and more honorable man. That may hurt some feelings.... but the truth hurts and not all care for the truth... they care for their own satisfaction. And like I said... if you choose to juice that’s your business.... but the naturals records or physique should never be compared or downplayed to a naturals. It’s just not comparable. That’s all I’m gonna say. One can attempt to justify it.... but it is what it is.

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Wannagrip

Guys, we let this go for a bit but in reality this is against our rules (steroid discussion). If the thread is to continue, please move off of the topic.

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Fist of Fury
5 minutes ago, Wannagrip said:

Guys, we let this go for a bit but in reality this is against our rules (steroid discussion). If the thread is to continue, please move off of the topic.

Better to close it down then. Since the topic is about the subject.

 

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David_wigren

I have alot of opinions and feelings regarding steroids and other PEDs. We could go on forever discussing what’s right or wrong regarding the use, all from a sports perspective to political and health perspective. But I don’t have the energy for that so I won’t. I’m just going to share my philosophical views on the matter. I like the idea of being natural because it means I can compare my efforts to every other natural lifter that has ever lived, and is ever going to live. Everyone’s efforts that has ever been is relatable to me. In a sense, all my efforts are completely mine, I own every achievement and they are mine forever. An enhanced athlete however, can only really compare their efforts to the other athletes from their particular era. Is Eddie Hall the current worlds strongest man? Or is he a current product concocted by the current chemicals availiable today? The answer is probably a mix of both. Because IMO as soon as you juice, then you’re not really a human any longer, you’re something else, something physically enhanced. Assuming that strongman is still around as a sport in 20-30 years, those athletes from that time will of course smash the current ones. But will they actually be better than the current athletes? In absolute terms, yes! But in philosophical terms, it’s hard to say. That’s pretty much how I see things. I could never bare the idea of taking drugs because everyone else’s efforts would no longer be relatable to me. They would become meaningless to me. In effect, making my own efforts meaningless. That’s the way I see it. I’m sure others see things differently. And with that said, I don’t judge anyone who choose to go the enhanced route. I still follow strongman and armwrestling almost religiously even though I know most of the top athletes are enhanced. But when I watch what they do, I don’t compare their efforts to mine, since we’re not doing the same thing.

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Fist of Fury
15 minutes ago, David_wigren said:

I have alot of opinions and feelings regarding steroids and other PEDs. We could go on forever discussing what’s right or wrong regarding the use, all from a sports perspective to political and health perspective. But I don’t have the energy for that so I won’t. I’m just going to share my philosophical views on the matter. I like the idea of being natural because it means I can compare my efforts to every other natural lifter that has ever lived, and is ever going to live. Everyone’s efforts that has ever been is relatable to me. In a sense, all my efforts are completely mine, I own every achievement and they are mine forever. An enhanced athlete however, can only really compare their efforts to the other athletes from their particular era. Is Eddie Hall the current worlds strongest man? Or is he a current product concocted by the current chemicals availiable today? The answer is probably a mix of both. Because IMO as soon as you juice, then you’re not really a human any longer, you’re something else, something physically enhanced. Assuming that strongman is still around as a sport in 20-30 years, those athletes from that time will of course smash the current ones. But will they actually be better than the current athletes? In absolute terms, yes! But in philosophical terms, it’s hard to say. That’s pretty much how I see things. I could never bare the idea of taking drugs because everyone else’s efforts would no longer be relatable to me. They would become meaningless to me. In effect, making my own efforts meaningless. That’s the way I see it. I’m sure others see things differently. And with that said, I don’t judge anyone who choose to go the enhanced route. I still follow strongman and armwrestling almost religiously even though I know most of the top athletes are enhanced. But when I watch what they do, I don’t compare their efforts to mine, since we’re not doing the same thing.

Well said, I feel pretty much the same way.

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16 minutes ago, David_wigren said:

I have alot of opinions and feelings regarding steroids and other PEDs. We could go on forever discussing what’s right or wrong regarding the use, all from a sports perspective to political and health perspective. But I don’t have the energy for that so I won’t. I’m just going to share my philosophical views on the matter. I like the idea of being natural because it means I can compare my efforts to every other natural lifter that has ever lived, and is ever going to live. Everyone’s efforts that has ever been is relatable to me. In a sense, all my efforts are completely mine, I own every achievement and they are mine forever. An enhanced athlete however, can only really compare their efforts to the other athletes from their particular era. Is Eddie Hall the current worlds strongest man? Or is he a current product concocted by the current chemicals availiable today? The answer is probably a mix of both. Because IMO as soon as you juice, then you’re not really a human any longer, you’re something else, something physically enhanced. Assuming that strongman is still around as a sport in 20-30 years, those athletes from that time will of course smash the current ones. But will they actually be better than the current athletes? In absolute terms, yes! But in philosophical terms, it’s hard to say. That’s pretty much how I see things. I could never bare the idea of taking drugs because everyone else’s efforts would no longer be relatable to me. They would become meaningless to me. In effect, making my own efforts meaningless. That’s the way I see it. I’m sure others see things differently. And with that said, I don’t judge anyone who choose to go the enhanced route. I still follow strongman and armwrestling almost religiously even though I know most of the top athletes are enhanced. But when I watch what they do, I don’t compare their efforts to mine, since we’re not doing the same thing.

I could not agree more

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