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Martin Gaisser

Well that sucks.  Will he make a return to the table now???  Dude was a freakin monster.  

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On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 3:30 PM, Martin Gaisser said:

Well that sucks.  Will he make a return to the table now???  Dude was a freakin monster.  

I mean.... if he was willing to cheat at bobsleigh, he was probably a monster at the table because he was cheating.

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Fist of Fury
2 minutes ago, Cannon said:

I mean.... if he was willing to cheat at bobsleigh, he was probably a monster at the table because he was cheating.

I would turn it around and say he didn't "cheat" in AW since many are juicing there but he was definitely a cheater in the Olympics.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Fist of Fury said:

I would turn it around and say he didn't "cheat" in AW since many are juicing there but he was definitely a cheater in the Olympics.

 

 

So juicing is legal in AW?  I honestly don't know the answer to that, but if the answer is "no", then he was cheating if he was doping at the table too.  And this is what sucks about cheating because how can you assume he was straight about anything? 

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Climber028

Most niche sports don't have any rules or testing for PEDs. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of gripsters are using. Tho here in America we have laws banning some substances, that just makes it illegal not necessarily cheating.

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Fist of Fury
29 minutes ago, Cannon said:

So juicing is legal in AW?  I honestly don't know the answer to that, but if the answer is "no", then he was cheating if he was doping at the table too.  And this is what sucks about cheating because how can you assume he was straight about anything? 

I used the quotation marks in "cheating" for a reason. It's against the rules in AW also (I believe) but if many people are doing it, it's not really cheating in it's true meaning. Is it unethical? Maybe yes but not really cheating. However in the Olympics it's strictly forbidden and they make a lot of testing and there's a large amount of clean athletes who compete there, so it's more cheating in that arena.

I'm by no means defending PED users, I don't like it but before someone use the "cheating" card, all facts has to be on the table I think. Everyone in pro Bodybuilding is using also but it's really not cheating if everyone does it. Same thing in WSM. But yes you can argue that all of them are cheaters but that to me is like seeing the world completely black & white.

I find it hilarious that they even let him in to the Olympics since there's really no question whether he has been taking PED's or not in my book. Yes there are people who are absurdly strong who are clean but doing the feats this guy has done, the chances it's 100% clean is minuscule.

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1 hour ago, Cannon said:

So juicing is legal in AW?  I honestly don't know the answer to that, but if the answer is "no", then he was cheating if he was doping at the table too.  And this is what sucks about cheating because how can you assume he was straight about anything? 

I have been following arm-wrestling since the 1990's. My daughter (Taylor Johnson) is a multiple national champion and took 4th at Worlds in Malaysia in 2015 for Team USA in the 121lb left hand Junior 21 division. I was the team doctor for the Team USA armwrestling team in 2010 at Worlds in Mesquite NV & was in charge of all the drug testing. There are very few competitions that actually do any kind of drug testing in armwrestling. Worlds is the main one. Some of the European competitions do. I think our USA qualifier for Worlds now does random testing of the top three finishers in each class; but that is about it for the United States. Alexey V. (like many others at the highest levels) to my knowledge has competed almost exclusively in competitions where they do not drug test. He made a comeback in the last couple of years and agreed to a supermatch with Tim Bresnan (see below), but Tim was too much for him and personally I don't think we will be seeing him back in armwrestling again, but who knows.

 

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Schweinemann

Vegan Power. I guess his Broccoli was poisoned, should have stayed with garlic.

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David_wigren

PED’s is banned at the European and World armwrestling championships. Which is probably why you don’t see some of the big names show up there, steroids use is unfortunately very common in the sport of armwrestling. There was an outspoken effort to eventually include doping tests at the WAL. But it seems that federation has more or less went under. 

The most prestigious(hardest) competition in the world is the Zloty tour. Mostly becuase there is no doping tests there. If you can win there, you are the strongest in the world. And I would say that it’s pretty much impossible to win that comp while being clean from steroids.

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11 hours ago, Climber028 said:

Most niche sports don't have any rules or testing for PEDs. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of gripsters are using. Tho here in America we have laws banning some substances, that just makes it illegal not necessarily cheating.

Dude I am ALL FOR testing! I would be the first one to volunteer to piss in a cup! I HATE DRUGS!

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11 hours ago, Fist of Fury said:

I used the quotation marks in "cheating" for a reason. It's against the rules in AW also (I believe) but if many people are doing it, it's not really cheating in it's true meaning. Is it unethical? Maybe yes but not really cheating. However in the Olympics it's strictly forbidden and they make a lot of testing and there's a large amount of clean athletes who compete there, so it's more cheating in that arena.

I'm by no means defending PED users, I don't like it but before someone use the "cheating" card, all facts has to be on the table I think. Everyone in pro Bodybuilding is using also but it's really not cheating if everyone does it. Same thing in WSM. But yes you can argue that all of them are cheaters but that to me is like seeing the world completely black & white.

I find it hilarious that they even let him in to the Olympics since there's really no question whether he has been taking PED's or not in my book. Yes there are people who are absurdly strong who are clean but doing the feats this guy has done, the chances it's 100% clean is minuscule.

If some are using drugs in any sport.... it is cheating and not fair to the clean participants. The clean ones are at a disadvantage no matter how good they are... someone that’s good and on drugs will beat the one who is good not using  drugs. I wish PEDs did not exist! Totally takes any legitimacy away from it in my book. Makes strength sports a side show. Because at the end of the day.... the drugged may be working hard... but they would not be putting the numbers up they are without them. Pisses me off royally. Takes away from the natural lifter. 

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Climber028

Everything is performance enhancing, protein powder, weights, vitamins, steroids, resistance bands, treadmills. Any line you draw between good and bad is arbitrary. 

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6 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

Everything is performance enhancing, protein powder, weights, vitamins, steroids, resistance bands, treadmills. Any line you draw between good and bad is arbitrary. 

Sorry dude you can’t compare food products to drugs... not even close...vitamins and protein are found in food. I draw the line with steroids, growth hormone and the like. It is black and white. If its food products it is not a drug and it will not enhance you like a drug. It will give you nutrition. Resistance bands and treadmills? Those are training tools that when used will build your body.... not a performance enhancing substance. Steroids and HGH do things to your body that would NEVER be without them.

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Climber028
10 hours ago, Joseph Sullivan said:

Sorry dude you can’t compare food products to drugs... not even close...vitamins and protein are found in food. I draw the line with steroids, growth hormone and the like. It is black and white. If its food products it is not a drug and it will not enhance you like a drug. It will give you nutrition. Resistance bands and treadmills? Those are training tools that when used will build your body.... not a performance enhancing substance. Steroids and HGH do things to your body that would NEVER be without them.

Unless you're in the jungle lifting trees and rocks, you're using performance enhancing tools. Steroids, creatine, hgh are all naturally occurring substances. I don't think anything is black and white, all performance tools exist on a spectrum and everyone will decide that they think is right but there is no inherent truth. People still argue about bench shirts and knee wraps, there's no consensus.

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Fist of Fury

It really isn't the performance enhancing factor that is the issue. That is the whole reason anyone would use steroids anyway. It's the long-term use and abuse of steroids that is the problem since it has negative effects on the system.

If you're in a sport like AW or PL where there's different federations with different rules I don't really see it as such a big problem actually, you can then choose where you want to compete and if you choose to compete where they do testing and you get caught, you'll have to face the consequences.

 

 

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Climber028

I can agree with most of that, tho being an elite athlete is unhealthy even without steroids.

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2 hours ago, Climber028 said:

Unless you're in the jungle lifting trees and rocks, you're using performance enhancing tools. Steroids, creatine, hgh are all naturally occurring substances. I don't think anything is black and white, all performance tools exist on a spectrum and everyone will decide that they think is right but there is no inherent truth. People still argue about bench shirts and knee wraps, there's no consensus.

Dude.... synthetic steroids and hgh being introduced to your Staten CANNOT be compared to eating protein and vitamins. The things drugs do to your body is not natural and would never occur outside their use.

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Just now, Joseph Sullivan said:

Dude.... synthetic steroids and hgh being introduced to your Staten CANNOT be compared to eating protein and vitamins. The things drugs do to your body is not natural and would never occur outside their use.

 

2 hours ago, Climber028 said:

Unless you're in the jungle lifting trees and rocks, you're using performance enhancing tools. Steroids, creatine, hgh are all naturally occurring substances. I don't think anything is black and white, all performance tools exist on a spectrum and everyone will decide that they think is right but there is no inherent truth. People still argue about bench shirts and knee wraps, there's no consensus.

It is black and white.... there is right and wrong... drugs are illegal and do things to you that would not happen outside their use. I can just as easily say that breathing air is performanace enhancing by your logic. And what does living in the jungle lifting rocks and logs mean? How is that different than conventional weights. I do nothing but eat food and lift... as does your jungle man comparison. 

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1 hour ago, Fist of Fury said:

It really isn't the performance enhancing factor that is the issue. That is the whole reason anyone would use steroids anyway. It's the long-term use and abuse of steroids that is the problem since it has negative effects on the system.

If you're in a sport like AW or PL where there's different federations with different rules I don't really see it as such a big problem actually, you can then choose where you want to compete and if you choose to compete where they do testing and you get caught, you'll have to face the consequences.

 

 

I do see a problem with it though... if you’re the clean guy do it with what God gave you and trying to be on par with a drugged.... and the foolish people that will defend their records as better than yours and natural.

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7 hours ago, Fist of Fury said:

Nope, it's definitely not cheating if there's no tests for it, then anyone is free to use it.

So if there is no test for an illegal substance that makes it not cheating? If I steal from you and I don’t caught caught does that make it right? Because that’s how I see it! You bust your hump as a natural to the best of your ability and you have a drugged up athlete surpass you with minimal effort and that’s ok? Let’s say you want to certify on a COC and you bust your hump for years and you get it... then a drugger comes along and does it in no time... is his achievement as good or equal to yours? I am way more impressed by a Natural deadlifting 700 than a juicer deadlifting 1000.... I’m sorry but I can’t give the credit for it. And if anyone does decide to take ....that is their decision.... but like I said..... I am a purist. The only way I see taking a substance is justifiable is for an older athlete or diagnosed low testosterone athletes to get them up to normal ranges. I have no shame for my view. With all do respect to all..... 

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Climber028
30 minutes ago, Joseph Sullivan said:

 

It is black and white.... there is right and wrong... drugs are illegal and do things to you that would not happen outside their use. I can just as easily say that breathing air is performanace enhancing by your logic. And what does living in the jungle lifting rocks and logs mean? How is that different than conventional weights. I do nothing but eat food and lift... as does your jungle man comparison. 

Legality isn't a good metric for safety, alcohol and tobacco are both legal. I also think we're conflating cheating with law breaking. You can always say steroids are wrong here in the US but most of the world doesn't have those laws, so it can be cheating and legal, or illegal and not cheating depending on where you're located and what you're competing in.

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Climber028
12 minutes ago, Joseph Sullivan said:

So if there is no test for an illegal substance that makes it not cheating? If I steal from you and I don’t caught caught does that make it right? Because that’s how I see it! You bust your hump as a natural to the best of your ability and you have a drugged up athlete surpass you with minimal effort and that’s ok? Let’s say you want to certify on a COC and you bust your hump for years and you get it... then a drugger comes along and does it in no time... is his achievement as good or equal to yours? I am way more impressed by a Natural deadlifting 700 than a juicer deadlifting 1000.... I’m sorry but I can’t give the credit for it. And if anyone does decide to take ....that is their decision.... but like I said..... I am a purist. The only way I see taking a substance is justifiable is for an older athlete or diagnosed low testosterone athletes to get them up to normal ranges. I have no shame for my view. With all do respect to all..... 

I would agree if ironmind had that in the rules, but they make no mention of drugs so how can they be cheating? Also, no shame here and definitely nothing personal, I love discussing opposing view points and always try to remain civil. I don't use steroids and don't have plans to so this is all just philosophical to me.

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12 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

I would agree if ironmind had that in the rules, but they make no mention of drugs so how can they be cheating? Also, no shame here and definitely nothing personal, I love discussing opposing view points and always try to remain civil. I don't use steroids and don't have plans to so this is all just philosophical to me.

It’s cheating the natural lifter! It’s cheating because drugs are illegal and a felony.... and it’s cheating because it’s doing things to your body that would NEVER be achieved without the SYNTHETIC substance. It is black and white. Juice and you cheat.

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