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genetics and other debates - my 2 cents


MarcoBuhl

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Mikael Siversson
2 hours ago, KapMan said:

Who here doesnt want to put effort into it? The lack of effort isnt in question. 

but you proved nates point. 

 

Well Tanner for example. As he states he does not want to put in the effort building up his weak deadlift again so it at least exceeds his grip strength. Reason being it would interfere with his climbing. Essentially we are asked to eliminate classic events so competitors can maintain a low level of core strength and continue to excel in other sports!

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Hey grip guys, the following is no hate against anyone. It is in my mind and i have to write it - so it is out of my mind :-) In Grip Sport every lift, every contest is discussed without end

Over the years i have been one pushing for the inclusion of climbers - which pretty much means weight classes.  Many climbers weigh from 135 to 155 - so asking them to have a 4 plate DL is a bit much

Sorry, this got long. I've done pretty well with axle, for what I'm working with. I got within about 5 lbs of a double BW lift (pulled 295 at 150).   I wouldn't say boycotting though. For me

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Boulderbrew
3 minutes ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Well Tanner for example. As he states he does not want to put in the effort building up his weak deadlift again so it at least exceeds his grip strength. Reason being it would interfere with his climbing. Essentially we are asked to eliminate classic events so competitors can maintain a low level of core strength and continue to excel in other sports!

I am in the minority, I will aknlowedge that. Do you have an obligation to develop core strength? If so, why? Do you criticize the squat of elite level arm wrestlers? Personally, I am only interested in a person's raw grip strength. I am not at all dismissive of other forms of strength. I think strong man is amazing and commendable. I happen to be a part of a minority who is interested in pure hand strength. That being said, I know most don't share my opinion, and I am totally okay with this community being a democracy. Let the majority rule! 

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Mikael Siversson

At least these discussions keep the forum alive. It can be a bit dull otherwise at times.

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burkhardmacht

True words, Marco!

For sure handsize is a factor - You simply have to deal with what You have. Personally I think when I can lift a (comparable) heavy weight a least those few people who know me in person can roughly estimate how difficult it was for me to do it and this is ok for me. With weight classes I'm not really sure. I always train alone - so most times I don't care about that. But watching people lift at the comp yesterday where some lifters weigh nearly 130-150% of my BW made me think about weightclasses again. But in the end it depends on the judgement of those who watch the comp/compete in the comp if they think the comparison between the competitors is fair or interesting to watch. By the way - handsize and BW are not the only factors involved - and everyone knows what I mean with that (no intention to discuss the last point for sure - simply not worth it).

Personally I think the axle event is so cool that I  would never refuse to compete because of this event. It's extremely difficult to improve but that's part of the fun!

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Cannon
8 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

While i do have the utmost, Matt, im gonna have to apologize. I know your back has been a nagging issue for some time. That is a bummer.

the flipside to your decision, is my decision that i refuse to attend based solely on the fact of boycotting the axle. So, now where does gripsport lie? On 1 hand, we have guys that will refuse to attend a comp if axle is contested (you, Tanner) and on the other, you have guys like me that are gonna refuse (on principal) to not attend a said comp because the axle is boycotted from competition. 

Now that all the cards are on the table, it appears that both sides are indeed not interested in growth of the sport. Does it not?

Sorry, this got long.

I've done pretty well with axle, for what I'm working with. I got within about 5 lbs of a double BW lift (pulled 295 at 150).  

I wouldn't say boycotting though. For me it's an economics decision for one. I'm not going to take PTO from work, travel, airfare, hotel, etc to attend a contest where I'll have to post a token lift in one of the events. And if I organized a contest, I would not put axle on the schedule. 

Having said that, for me and a lot of beginners or people new to the sport, axle isn't a grip lift.  Even if they are otherwise fit people who are interested in training and sports. I train my body and have worked my back to keep healthy, but I don't lift 300lbs in the gym ever. I do push ups, pull ups, run, and train my grip.  I excel at all those things. Still, for me, axle is not a grip lift.  I know that for other people, it is.  Like if you're already a powerlifter and now trying grip.   

So even though I'm voting on the events with my own personal attendance, I wouldn't say boycott because I would still support promoters who want to contest the axle. It is one of the choices and a lift with a lot of history. CPW will still send stuff and I wouldn't discourage others from going. It's good for the sport whenever someone takes on the challenge of promoting. But even if it's my own opinion, I suspect a contest with axle won't have a lot of new faces.  I would personally choose other events if I were hoping to draw newcomers rather than simply increase the number of contests for the people already in the sport. 

All of this is just my opinion.  One thing I think is great is that we can team up on this rather than be devisive.  I believe we can make it common place to have 30-40 people at a grip contest.  Personally, I think those contests won't have axle or bending or a few other things.  So I'll try and do that. I'll pour people into the top of the funnel.  If people stick with the sport, they're going to try axle and bending, etc.  it's part of "catching the bug" as we call it. Then they can attend more contests to do axle and the stuff they like.  

 

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For some time I actually couldn't do one handed rolling handle lifts because my knee didn't like the wide stance it requires. Still could do normal (or axle) deadlifts at the time. There's always going to be something... But I like both lifts. And I like the fact that gripsport is so incredible diverse. You could attend 3 different comps and never have even one event be the same as any of the others.

You know what really sucks about gripsport? The fact that there are no competitions being held in the Netherlands. :laugh ...and you all think you have it tough.

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Frank Pizzo

The axle...I've never avoided a contest with it or have any animosity towards the lift itself...my regular deadlift is as least 100lbs over my axle deadlift so for me my grip IS the limiting factor in the lift.  However, since I started competing in this sport I've often thought it was very strange to have it in a "grip contest" because to me it's more of a strongman style lift...but just my two cents.

Growth...I'm having 5 or 6 guys from work over in a couple weeks to do sort of an "intro to grip" contest.  They came over a while back (at different times) to try all my implements and get familiar with them.  I asked them all to choose 4 events for the contest and they unanimously chose the FBBC rolling handle for thickbar instead of my axle.  Nobody had any interest in the axle deadlift whatsoever...but that's just 6 guys that haven't been in the sport for 15 years and were interested in trying it out...who knows if they will continue with grip or not.

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jvance

The main advantage of the axle is it combines the strength of box hands (not allowing you to hide a weak thickbar hand like i have :) ). One hand lifts tend to make me overly focus on the dominant hand and to test both hands takes twice the time in contest. I prefer a larger diameter, up to 60mm to help with the back issues but still be a viable lift for those with smaller hands.

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jvance

Also... someone chimed in about wrists. So important.... if you want to overcome the hand size issue - get stronger wrists. Its that simple!

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Kluv#0

In the end for me, experience training various implements, is bigger factor than bodyweight, hand size, etc. I had a legendary grip man tell me to give myself "2 years to get strong" I told him my some of my current grip lifts and he said give yourself "2 years to get strong".  I started grip training Last August and it is amazing the difference between then and now or even January to now. Compete against yourself and everything will work out.

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Cannon
1 hour ago, jvance said:

The main advantage of the axle is it combines the strength of box hands (not allowing you to hide a weak thickbar hand like i have :) ). One hand lifts tend to make me overly focus on the dominant hand and to test both hands takes twice the time in contest. I prefer a larger diameter, up to 60mm to help with the back issues but still be a viable lift for those with smaller hands.

Interesting. Even though I make a conscious effort to train both hands, my right has always been stronger at grippers and key pinch, but left is stronger on handles and pinch. I like testing one hand in a contest and the lifter can spread it around how they like. My disparities keep me from going all right-handed. We're all snowflakes :santa:

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Cannon
1 hour ago, jvance said:

Also... someone chimed in about wrists. So important.... if you want to overcome the hand size issue - get stronger wrists. Its that simple!

I will always remember a blog post that Wes Peart made about strengthening your wrists. This is an area I "keep meaning to do something about."  I need to get on that. I agree, SO IMPORTANT. 

Edit: Wow, found the post. read it!

http://thewisdomoflazaruslong.blogspot.com/2008/02/closing-grippers-and-general.html?m=1

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jvance

That should be standard noobie reading material. If only i read it when i started out.

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climber511

Curious.  Is there some place where there is a list of all events that one would consider "grip strength" competition lifts?  Or one that might show training lifts as well?

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Anthony C.

I'm not getting involved in this conversation, but I did just want to chime in and say one thing....deadlifting doesn't make you gain weight. Eating a surplus of calories makes you gain weight.

Carry on, gents.

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Climber028
27 minutes ago, Anthony C. said:

I'm not getting involved in this conversation, but I did just want to chime in and say one thing....deadlifting doesn't make you gain weight. Eating a surplus of calories makes you gain weight.

Carry on, gents.

If people find this hard to believe, check out Richard Hawthorne. He's a 132lb power lifter who pulls something like 660lbs. Sure, he may be weaker than elite strongman but that puts him above most grip athletes, and far lighter.

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climber511

This is kind of like Power Lifting but saying - I don't want to bench press - squat or dead lift - those hurt my (whatever) - let's do triceps kick backs, one arm DB curls and calf raises instead.  There are lots of contests - pick one - will you like everything about it - probably not - but go - have fun - 99% of us were not going to win the overall or even our weight class no matter what the events were. 

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Andrew Dube

In my opinion the deadlift is a pre requisite for grip sport. Everything except levering and grippers involves picking something up from the ground.  I don't think people need to take up powerlifting or pull from the floor or even pull on an Olympic bar. But a good understanding of the body mechanics involved in lifting something will help in avoiding possible injuries as well as improve your lifts. The stronger your set up is the more you can concentrate on your grip. The faster you can lift something the less time you have to hold on to it. While grip sport lifts generally have a shorter ROM some of the implements get quite heavy and a strong upper back is required to support it. Some basic deadlift strength will only help if you want to push 400 on the tips tester, lift the dinnies,  lift 300+ on a v-bar or even lift the inch ( which is actually a deficit relative to the axle) let alone a double inch lift.

While the axle is a strongman event they will be allowed to use a reverse grip or even straps (something that drives me crazy) to ensure the biggest weights possible are lifted regardless of grip. The DO axle only exists in grip and if it were removed I don't know where it would be contested. 

@Boulderbrew I 100% respect your choice to train however you like and pursue your own goals. However learning to deadlift would only help your grip lifts and would give you a very competitive and probably world class axle lift given your raw hand strength. I wouldn't expect you to need to gain any more weight either. Average gym goers your size can deadlift 400+ and the deadlift isn't known to pack on muscle the same way other lifts do (squats and bench). Especially if you avoid the eccentric. 

@anwnate  I feel terrible for anyone with chronic back pain. I've had disc issues myself and I know how frustrating it can be. I love that grip sport has many different events and that people can still participate around such injuries. However if someone can't axle deadlift, I listed a number of other lifts above which are probably not possible either but that doesn't make them not feats of grip. 

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anwnate

My thoughts in Blue.

1 hour ago, Andrew Dube said:

In my opinion the deadlift is a pre requisite for grip sport. Everything except levering and grippers involves picking something up from the ground.  

This is true, however nearly all of the of lifts in Gripsport are one handed and done from an erect position.

I don't think people need to take up powerlifting or pull from the floor or even pull on an Olympic bar. But a good understanding of the body mechanics involved in lifting something will help in avoiding possible injuries as well as improve your lifts. The stronger your set up is the more you can concentrate on your grip. The faster you can lift something the less time you have to hold on to it.

While assuredly true, the Axle does not test Gripstrength directly as a one handed rolling handle...so why is it necessary?  Are the majority of proponents of the Axle simply being altruistic to the general grip population?  Is there a real concern that Gripsters become all over strong?

While grip sport lifts generally have a shorter ROM

This is both true and important.

some of the implements get quite heavy and a strong upper back is required to support it. Some basic deadlift strength will only help if you want to push 400 on the tips tester, lift the dinnies,  lift 300+ on a v-bar or even lift the inch ( which is actually a deficit relative to the axle) let alone a double inch lift.

There are a several important things to point out here.   The Dinnie Stones are lifted at your sides, much like a trap bar.  The INCH is a one handed lift that maxes out at 174lbs. Furthermore, neither the Dinnie Stones, nor the Inch are contested in Gripsport.  

Not only is the V-bar done in a essentially erect position, a completed lift is only 2" off the floor.  The Tips Tester is probably the worst on the back, but it does have a couple things going for it.  The weight is centered between your legs, and the lift is only 6" off the floor.  If the Axle was 6" off the floor, Durniat would have a 515lb Gripsport Record.

While the axle is a strongman event they will be allowed to use a reverse grip or even straps (something that drives me crazy) to ensure the biggest weights possible are lifted regardless of grip. The DO axle only exists in grip and if it were removed I don't know where it would be contested.

The Axle is a great and impressive body/grip lift, but I don't really consider it the responsibility of Gripsport to include it.   While it may not be contested elsewhere, that doesn't mean it's best for Gripsport.  It's a full body grip lift and it's inclusion is essentially a one-off of events contested. 

There is a significant portion of the population you are shutting out of the NAGS Championship event.  After upper respiratory infections, back pain is the number one reason people go to the doctor.  Not everyone has the goal of attending NAGSC, but knowing ahead of time they won't be at all competitive in 25% of the scoring, isn't the best motivator to go.

@Boulderbrew I 100% respect your choice to train however you like and pursue your own goals. However learning to deadlift would only help your grip lifts and would give you a very competitive and probably world class axle lift given your raw hand strength. I wouldn't expect you to need to gain any more weight either. Average gym goers your size can deadlift 400+ and the deadlift isn't known to pack on muscle the same way other lifts do (squats and bench). Especially if you avoid the eccentric. 

@anwnate  I feel terrible for anyone with chronic back pain. I've had disc issues myself and I know how frustrating it can be. I love that grip sport has many different events and that people can still participate around such injuries. However if someone can't axle deadlift, I listed a number of other lifts above which are probably not possible either but that doesn't make them not feats of grip.

I addressed this above.

In the months of arguing, I have yet to hear a single statement that the Axle is a better way to test openhand/support strength than a rolling handle.  

Not one.

IF this is the case...why the heck argue for something inferior?

 

 

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climber511

I addressed this above.

In the months of arguing, I have yet to hear a single statement that the Axle is a better way to test openhand/support strength than a rolling handle.  

Not one.

IF this is the case...why the heck argue for something inferior?

I have twice hurt my back on V - bar - 2 or 3 times on one hand ring lifts - once on the RT - and while the dead lift / Axle does hurt me - it has never been responsible for a (damn - where's the drugs and my bed) type injury.  This thread has once again pretty much proven that for one guy on one side there is a guy on the other side of the issue.  I haven't seen anyone change their mind yet and really don't expect to. 

Another thing that is probably just me is "Rolling Handles" don't carry over to much of anything in my real life where Fat long and short bars do.  When I trained rolling handle I made almost zero progress over a period of months - and I usually make substantial progress when training loadable 2" and 2 3/8" handled DBs and BBs.  Why I have no idea but I have proven that "for me" one works and the other doesn't. 

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Bryan Hunsaker

Guys, Brian Shaw picked up 250 on the RT the other day like it was a bag of groceries.  Getting stronger overall translates to improving grip strength.  Don't respond to that with "he weighs 200kg" or "He juices", which are both true, but diminish the fact that he's really strong, and that strength equates to a big RT lift without training.

Second point on the RT - it doesn't demonstrate what the axle does.  I'm using the RT universally for Crusher and Mammoth and whatever else is out there.  I've almost hit 240 on the RT righty, and 225 left.  So I should be able to do 470ish on the axle, right?  Not even close!  It is not the same lift, and it doesn't equate. @anwnate

I closed a 2.5 COC the first time I touched it, probably because I was a 400+lb bencher (and lifetime drug-free for the record).  Strength ties-in.  Not my bodyweight.  Strength. 

If Grip Sport grows, it has to have presence at Fitness shows from a regional Fit Expo to the Arnold - that is where strength contest happen.  If you want to be there, you have to put on a show.  You can't do small lifts, with small groups in small venues.  Growth is derived from putting on a show, and a show requires big lifts.  People can wrap their head around an axle deadlift.  They won't understand a coin lift, and won't stop to watch it.  It doesn't necessarily have to be an axle, but it is always a draw when it is out. 

Marco, I align with a lot of what you say.  This debate never seems to end.  We may have to have 2 sports - grip sport and armlifting.  That's unfortunate. @MarcoBuhl

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Squeezus

What do you guys think Joe Kinney could pull on the axle?

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KapMan
13 minutes ago, Squeezus said:

What do you guys think Joe Kinney could pull on the axle?

Follow up question, How much do think John Brookfield can pull.

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WestSlope
14 minutes ago, Squeezus said:

What do you guys think Joe Kinney could pull on the axle?

I'll call his mom and report back here.

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anwnate
54 minutes ago, Bryan Hunsaker said:

Guys, Brian Shaw picked up 250 on the RT the other day like it was a bag of groceries.  Getting stronger overall translates to improving grip strength.  Don't respond to that with "he weighs 200kg" or "He juices", which are both true, but diminish the fact that he's really strong, and that strength equates to a big RT lift without training.

10" hands also equate to big RT lifts without training.

Did you really just bring up the world's strongest man as a point into a comparison about strength and grip? :) 

I actually watched that 250 lift at least 5 times in a row and was surprised it wasn't easier for him...or that he didn't even hold it at the top for a few seconds.

Second point on the RT - it doesn't demonstrate what the axle does.  I'm using the RT universally for Crusher and Mammoth and whatever else is out there.  I've almost hit 240 on the RT righty, and 225 left.  So I should be able to do 470ish on the axle, right?  Not even close!  It is not the same lift, and it doesn't equate. @anwnate

Of course that math is off.  It's definitely not the same lift.  One is a 2 handed full body with grip lift that has a great range of motion.  One is 1 handed grip based lift with a short range of motion.

I closed a 2.5 COC the first time I touched it, probably because I was a 400+lb bencher (and lifetime drug-free for the record).  Strength ties-in.  Not my bodyweight.  Strength. 

If Grip Sport grows, it has to have presence at Fitness shows from a regional Fit Expo to the Arnold - that is where strength contest happen.  If you want to be there, you have to put on a show.  You can't do small lifts, with small groups in small venues.  Growth is derived from putting on a show, and a show requires big lifts.  People can wrap their head around an axle deadlift.  They won't understand a coin lift, and won't stop to watch it.  It doesn't necessarily have to be an axle, but it is always a draw when it is out. 

It's highly unlikely that Gripsport will ever grow from "putting on a show."  

It will grow from being accessible, good promotion and a strong organization.

The equipment can't be overly cumbersome or expensive.

The events can't be too intimidating for newcomers.

Promoting can't center strictly around the Gripboard.

The organization must be fully committed to growth.

Marco, I align with a lot of what you say.  This debate never seems to end.  We may have to have 2 sports - grip sport and armlifting.  That's unfortunate. @MarcoBuhl

Armlifting already does exist...and features the Axle.  I don't see that as unfortunate.  There is plenty of crossover already.

 

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