Jump to content

Strengthdifference in grip


Geralt

Recommended Posts

Anyone an idea on what defines strength for lower arms and hands? I understand this is not an easy thing to answer. 

Just watched Gabriel Sum's latest video on YT and he just reps out TNS sets with a #3 like it's nothing. 
Now it's easy to just say 'strength', in my opinion. 
Gripsport is less represented of course in world perspective, but the internet is full of 300kg+ deadlifters but regarding big gripfeats, you're most likely to see the same bunch of guys every time. 

In regular stengthwork, every body type has a certain lift that favors the build of that body, i.e benchers, deadlifters etc. Regarding lower arm/hand stength however, the strongest guys are mostly just normal built guys, look at the recent Russian Gold nail bender, and several strong gripper guys. 

What would explain their strengthbase? Thicker tendons? 
The strength difference is sometimes so big, it's puzzling me. 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 56
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Paul Savage

    13

  • Geralt

    8

  • Mikael Siversson

    5

  • wobbler

    4

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

@Mikael Siversson, I know that you probably have a different experience than I with "people of African descent", but that is a very wide definition. While there are a number of people who are very sui

I'll ramble a bit here, with the intent of staying on topic [in a roundabout way]. I'm still fairly a newbie with regards to the approach of this community towards measuring and documenting grip stren

First off the shipping to get the stuff is expensive overseas and certain events like the stub, half penny, meat hooks, wrist developer etc just aren't big events in the US to justify training them ye

Posted Images

Mikael Siversson

Well the most dominant grip competitor we have had regardless of weight class is Chad (Too tall) and the best pound-for-pound is Kody. Both are tall for their weight. Climbers often do very well with relatively little grip sport training for a given weight class and they too are tall for their weight. Basically I think the optimum build for a given weight class is one with modest development in muscle mass where it is not directly needed for grip. Large hands help in thickbar to some extent but not in grippers or pinch (on a Euro set up). People with a huge thickbar I have noticed often struggle a bit in the pinch.

Link to post
Share on other sites
gripmaniac

I don't think there is a simple short answer to this question.

To my way of thinking there are a number of factors that contribute to (or detract from)  a grip strengthbase. Tendon thickness and insertion points are certainly two of them. Bone density, and hand structure (finger length as a % of overall size) are a probably a couple more. There be others - but I'm struggling to name them.  Some can be changed, but most are constants.

Whilst I don't have all the answers, I know this subject would make for a good article  - somebody with some academic "cred" should volunteer!

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say daily workload, perseverance, and not getting injured, but that doesn't really answer the question.

The real answer will be in finding people who try a bit of everything, and are relatively good at some stuff, relatively bad at other stuff.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Paul Savage
15 hours ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Well the most dominant grip competitor we have had regardless of weight class is Chad (Too tall) and the best pound-for-pound is Kody. Both are tall for their weight. Climbers often do very well with relatively little grip sport training for a given weight class and they too are tall for their weight. Basically I think the optimum build for a given weight class is one with modest development in muscle mass where it is not directly needed for grip. Large hands help in thickbar to some extent but not in grippers or pinch (on a Euro set up). People with a huge thickbar I have noticed often struggle a bit in the pinch.

With all due respect to those two chaps i strongly disagree with the first comments. David Horne typically competes between 100 and 110kg and if I'm thinking correctly he's now won 15 national titles, European, champion of champions comp and 4 world's strongest hands titles. He has by far been the most winning and consistent grip competitor of all time. Still improving today at 52. This also answers the question of how - a lot of consistent training year in year out.

Edited by Paul Savage
Link to post
Share on other sites
Mikael Siversson

Chad took over the position in the US as dominant overall grip competitor in allround grip comps in 2006 and got bored of winning around 2009 or thereabouts. David has dominated the UK grip comp scene. Grip sport is bigger in the US compared with UK. It is therefore more difficult to reach the #1 spot in the US compared with UK. Chad's most significant wins (US Nationals) were all in competitions organised by other people. I will not continue this discussion with you (as we have gone through this once before) so feel free to have the last word.

Edited by Mikael Siversson
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Paul Savage said:

With all due respect to those two chaps i strongly disagree with the first comments. David Horne typically competes between 100 and 110kg and if I'm thinking correctly he's now won 15 national titles, European, champion of champions comp and 4 world's strongest hands titles. He has by far been the most winning and consistent grip competitor of all time. Still improving today at 52. This also answers the question of how - a lot of consistent training year in year out.

Glossing over Jedd Johnson is flat out wrong. Gil Goodman and Kody Burns are amazing, too. Speaking of age, Bob Sundin is 56   And has the U.S. record( recently set) of david Horne shallow hub- he can give anyone a fight in the world in pinch, v-bar, inch dumbbell lift, the list goes on.

Edited by Kluv#0
Link to post
Share on other sites
Paul Savage
1 hour ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Chad took over the position in the US as dominant overall grip competitor in allround grip comps in 2006 and got bored of winning around 2009 or thereabouts. David has dominated the UK grip comp scene. Grip sport is bigger in the US compared with UK. It is therefore more difficult to reach the #1 spot in the US compared with UK. Chad's most significant wins (US Nationals) were all in competitions organised by other people. I will not continue this discussion with you (as we have gone through this once before) so feel free to have the last word.

I don't care about having the last word but I feel David has more than earned the top spot and deserves his due. America is a bigger country but it depends who your competing against, David won a lot of his national titles against multiple European champion, and he's beat everybody world over for many years, including other worlds strongest hands champions (only winning when he's not competed). You can say well it's his comp he's going to win it but then you would have to put near everybody who's put on a comp in that bracket and grip is typically promoted by competitors. His events are always fair (often adjustable to fit) and straight forward, available world over and contested world over, and he announces them months (sometimes several) before the comp so everybody can have good long prep. He couldn't really make it any more fair and his lifts are almost always recorded so everybody can see them.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Geralt, I think it comes down to genetics and anatomy, as what dictates how quickly one can progress. I believe if i didnt spread my strength out far and wide i would be CoC and beyond. I am similar to you as someone who grinds out the work, yet people like Sum or the latest ghp 9 cert guy continue to baffle us with unexplainable progress. 

I think there are other certain lifts that others might think the same about me. Stuff i progressed in fairly quickly. I know i am capable of a 120- 125 1hp or blob +15- 20lbs, but i know i will never close an easy 4 or the like. So i will continue to grind away and celebrate the small victories with lifts i am not as naturally suited for.

 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

Jedd Johnson is synonymous with grip in the U.S.   David Horne is synonymous with grip in the U.K.  - Both are legends, promoters and have withstood the test of time. However, Jedd Johnson has faced much tougher competition. Just my opinion but doing much research on grip that is my conclusion. Happy Holidays to all

Link to post
Share on other sites

Look guys Geralt didn't ask who the best damn gripster in the world is now did he?

So why is it that quite a few of the strongest grip guys aren't huge? Even David Horne and Jedd aren't huge. Where does their strength come from? Super CNS? Bigger tendons? Better insertions/leverage? Or does it really just come down to perseverance? It's a hard one to answer for sure.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think its a combination of many factors (genetics, perseverance, anatomy etc) . The sport is also young and not many people train it so its hard to tell. You only have control over some of these like perseverance so I focus on those because my hands aren't going to get any bigger. Another one I try to have control over is my thought process over training. I analyze my training a lot and look at the training of others for ideas. Intelligent training is huge in my opinion. Once I figured out what worked for me, my progress soared. 

Edited by Chez
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Paul Savage
1 hour ago, Kluv#0 said:

Jedd Johnson is synonymous with grip in the U.S.   David Horne is synonymous with grip in the U.K.  - Both are legends, promoters and have withstood the test of time. However, Jedd Johnson has faced much tougher competition. Just my opinion but doing much research on grip that is my conclusion. Happy Holidays to all

Cant have done much research, Im pretty sure there's not been a single time David hasn't beat jedd In competition and don't recall of it ever being close either. Last year's world's strongest hands 1st place David 15 points, 5th place Jedd 37 points. 2011 results 3 event series David 1st place 440 points jedd again 5th place 99 points. Ivan, juha, durniat, Adam t glass all in line up, beat them all easily. He's stood the test of time and beat everybody who's competed against him.

Note this is not a knock on anybody else it's purely that David deserves the #1 spot as he's clearly earned it in legit national and international comps over many years and is still to this day the world champion of what is really the only world championships in the sport.

Edited by Paul Savage
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not getting involved in the debate but I will point that the US grip comps often have very different events than world's strongest hands. The only one I can think which is consistently contested in the US is the euro. Also, I never liked the scoring for these world wide grip events (reverse strongman). I beat Jedd a few years back at King Kong which uses similar scoring and lets be honest here, the only event I can consistently beat Jedd at is max gripper close. I only beat him in one of the 4 events at KK that year (the hub). I was shocked that I ended up above him. I like the percentage based scoring at US grip comps. I don't remember Durniat in the top 5 at world's strongest hands (hes not a fan of a lot of the events) and the dude was a straight up beast when he focused on grip. He would run away with US nationals.  

Edited by Chez
Link to post
Share on other sites
Paul Savage
35 minutes ago, Chez said:

I'm not getting involved in the debate but I will point that the US grip comps often have very different events than world's strongest hands. The only one I can think which is consistently contested in the US is the euro. Also, I never liked the scoring for these world wide grip events (reverse strongman). I beat Jedd a few years back at King Kong which uses similar scoring and lets be honest here, the only event I can consistently beat Jedd at is max gripper close. I only beat him in one of the 4 events at KK that year (the hub). I was shocked that I ended up above him. I like the percentage based scoring at US grip comps. I don't remember Durniat in the top 5 at world's strongest hands (hes not a fan of a lot of the events) and the dude was a straight up beast when he focused on grip. He would run away with US nationals.  

Curious as what is disliked about the events?

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Paul Savage said:

Curious as what is disliked about the events?

First off the shipping to get the stuff is expensive overseas and certain events like the stub, half penny, meat hooks, wrist developer etc just aren't big events in the US to justify training them year round. These are made by david and he knows they will be in his comp so he trains them constantly. I'm not insulting anyone or saying certain events are better etc. but there is def a style difference between the american events and the events in world strongest hands. A lot of Americans find those events odd (Just saying what i hear and what is discussed some times). I'm not saying that is right but we don't spend a lot of time training them. Usually you only find them in a medley here. Although Jedd does hold comps with them because he likes to add that international flavor but its still not super common in the majority of comps here. Jedd needs to focus on the more common US events year round to do well here and keep his title here.  

The big american events are the 2 hand pinch (this is pretty much accepted as the pinch standard here as well although the flask is a nice substitute for a quicker comp), axle (not the same as the thick top because you can't wrap your hand fully around the thick top which I don't like) and grippers (Torsion spring grippers feel very different than the Vulcan but the Vulcan is a valuable tool). A lot of us in the US call these the big 3 like in power lifting. All 3 have been contested at the last couple US nationals in a row. There are some substitutes like often we contest the crusher instead of the axle, past couple years wrist events like the sledge choke have been common.   

 

My point is, you can't use results from one specific comp to say who is better. Its more complicated than that and that is the great thing about grip, we all have the events we excel in the ones we struggle in. I like my odds in any gripper event for example. 

Edited by Chez
  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
Paul Savage
16 minutes ago, Chez said:

First off the shipping to get the stuff is expensive overseas and certain events like the stub, half penny, meat hooks, wrist developer etc just aren't big events in the US to justify training them year round. These are made by david and he knows they will be in his comp so he trains them constantly. I'm not insulting anyone or saying certain events are better etc. but there is def a style difference between the american events and the events in world strongest hands. A lot of Americans find those events odd (Just saying what i hear and what is discussed some times). I'm not saying that is right but we don't spend a lot of time training them. Usually you only find them in a medley here. Although Jedd does hold comps with them because he likes to add that international flavor but its still not super common in the majority of comps here. Jedd needs to focus on the more common US events year round to do well here and keep his title here.  

The big american events are the 2 hand pinch (this is pretty much accepted as the pinch standard here as well although the flask is a nice substitute for a quicker comp), axle (not the same as the thick top because you can't wrap your hand fully around the thick top which I don't like) and grippers (Torsion spring grippers feel very different than the Vulcan but the Vulcan is a valuable tool). A lot of us in the US call these the big 3 like in power lifting. All 3 have been contested at the last couple US nationals in a row. There are some substitutes like often we contest the crusher instead of the axle, past couple years wrist events like the sledge choke have been common.   

 

My point is, you can't use results from one specific comp to say who is better. Its more complicated than that and that is the great thing about grip, we all have the events we excel in the ones we struggle in. I like my odds in any gripper event for example. 

Thanks

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to get even more off track, (sorry Geralt) one thing i do like about David's events are the endurance tests. All around grip can be broken down by both categories; brute strength 1RM stuff and strength endurance/work capacity. The latter has definitely become part of my training and perhaps the reason why my 1RM progress isnt as linear as i would like - but it has yielded results and durability over the long haul.

Edited by jvance
Link to post
Share on other sites
climber511

There are "specialists" and "all arounders" in grip.  It's not possible to pick what's best and choose any one individual in my opinion.  Personally I would much rather be fairly good at everything than very good at one thing even if it may keep you off some list or another.  This seems to lessen the effects of big/small hands - big/smaller body size etc.  I also value strength per pound highly.  The guys I like are the ones that destroy the super huge Medleys - and of course they are also near the top in individual events but with a reserve of strength endurance.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Paul Savage
1 hour ago, jvance said:

Not to get even more off track, (sorry Geralt) one thing i do like about David's events are the endurance tests. All around grip can be broken down by both categories; brute strength 1RM stuff and strength endurance/work capacity. The latter has definitely become part of my training and perhaps the reason why my 1RM progress isnt as linear as i would like - but it has yielded results and durability over the long haul.

Personally I think david's comp typically do the best job of testing all around grip, fingers, wrists, thumbs, different tests. I can understand things from a traditional stand point, but personally like a lot of his innovative events. The key pinch events especially I think are very good as they single out the thumb without making it a thickbar event as often times I feel like events become very thickbar dominant. Axle plus thick rolling handle for example for me is too much and then turns the contest to suit larger hands. David does a good job of taking hand size out of it and making it more about hand strength. I too like the events for time.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Lucasraymond

Well I can say that in the time I have trained with Jedd there are times we will barely train for a contest especially if there are events that aren't involved in the major events in the USA throughout the year (those events being King Kong, Gripmas, NAGS, 1 contest Jedd throws). So in the WSH contests that I have been part of and trained for there has been minimal training for those because the time of year is not good for training due to being in the summer and having so many other things going on. So basing WSH results isn't exactly accurate. I would say both are very dominant in the sports; but I believe if Chad Woodall started training regularly and competing again there would be no contest with anyone. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Mikael Siversson

Pound-for-pound I regard David Horne as a bit better allround grip competitor than Chad but in absolute hand strength I believe Chad would win if the events chosen are not too cryptic (eg if we picked the 'big three' and a wrist event). Chad is an excellent example of why we need weight classes. He is very large overall and the overall strongest we have had competing. Hardly a coincidence so to answer the original question  again size matters most (everything else equal), especially when expressed as a large frame (rather than very muscular build for a given height).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you all for the input guys. Indeed, it was not so much my question who is the best athlete. Gabriel sum isn't perhaps the best gripathlete all round, but he is capable of for instance TNS gripperwork which even the top guys, can't come even close to, despite being quite high on the MM ladder. I also remember him casually TNS-ing an Elite while holding the camera in his other hand. You see what I am getting at? 

I wonder what mechanics are playing a rol here. Several guys above mentioned a few things already. 

Perseverance is a big factor indeed, but even perseverance, things like 10+ reps TNS with a #3 or that very quick rise in bending strength cannot be easily trained, even with years of dedicated training. Another strange phenomenon in find in grip is, that two more or less equal movements, don't necessarily need to complement each other, i.e gripmachine vs. gripper, thickbar vs RT, and so on. For instance in the Dutch comp I recently attended, there were some pretty good thickbarlifts, but compared to their gripperwork,  there was a lot of strengthdifference. And I would not address this solely to lack of technique. The differences would have been even higher if it was not for the fact that grippers were to be closed within a short timeframe, instead of three max attempts with recovery time in between. The risk of burning out on a too heavy gripper was too high. 

It's very interesting for me.  

Btw personally, I think Laine Snook always was a marvel to watch. He has a scary amount of strength output, both Vulcan and the double Inch lift. If this man would be a few years younger now and had his way on the more recent implements, he would be ripping a lot of current PR's in half. But, that's off topic. 

 

Edited by Geralt
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Squeezus
6 minutes ago, Geralt said:

Thank you all for the input guys. Indeed, it was not so much my question who is the best athlete. Gabriel sum isn't perhaps the best gripathlete all round, but he is capable of for instance TNS gripperwork which even the top guys, can't come even close to, despite being quite high on the MM ladder. I also remember him casually TNS-ing an Elite while holding the camera in his other hand. You see what I am getting at? 

For TNS work specifically, there are a lot of things that must come together to make a good TNSer. It's not good enough to have a big hand and be strong at grippers. You need to have a certain level of dexterity and relative finger length and strength. Having a long dextrous pinky makes TNS much more manageable. I have really long hands, but my pinky is a full inch shorter than my ring finger and struggles to hook the handle so that I can reposition my fingers. Also, my right pinky locks up and is nearly useless on TNS closes. A lot of the good TNS guys seems to also have a perfect pocket in their palm that is able to hold the gripper handle without much pressure from the thumb. These things plus dexterity, on top of insane crushing power are necessary to be a badass at TNS.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy policies.