Arnold Classic

[pawel r]

http://www.myarmtv.com/player_pseudo.php?id=2223

[G-Man]

It didn't look like a pin from that angle but shows that Don Underwood is in amazing shape right now. I never would have predicted Underwood-Espey-Larratt as the final result.

[G-Man]

After watching it several more times in slow motion, it may have been a bad call. It did not look like Devon's forearm touched the pad.

[Schweinemann]

no pin

[mightyjoe]

You can get pinned (parallel pin) without the forearm touching the pin pad depending

on rules for that tournament/association.

I would like to see the same footage from several different angles. At that

particular view it doesn't appear to be a pin either way. When I refed tournaments

in 1992-1994 things are seen different from the refs perspective than what you may

see on video (VHS back then). It's all about angles, line of sight, timing, etc...

In the SH class they don't hit much faster or harder than Underwood. Love him or hate

him his hits are enormous.

[bicio]

It seems the old issue from Bob Brown is getting out again

Don is unbelievable...very strong especially if he takes the opponent hand as he wants.

I think Devon has underestimated Don's Toproll...

(maybe i'm wrong but i've seen only this pull from AC)

Bicio

[fightertrainer]

IMO, I don't think it's a parallel pin. DEvon's forearm is too long to be in parallel pin. His forearm/hand was over the pad from lower angle. Had his wrist/hand been parallel it would have disappeared from low camera angle. The pad is about 4" high, then every parallel object (inside of it) will be away from line of sight from lower angle. Don't believe me? place a 4" hight object (or anything same height) inside the pad then squat down below the table to see if you can still see it...no see? That's why all the controversies are going on. To say it's a pin from ref's angle is an easy escape for a bad call and illogical (read above) YOu can't ref like that when world class athletes are competing, especially when top 10 level are there. Just as you can't throw out top NBA player from play off game, when it's not necesary (Ahem, remember Clyde Drexler any one...?) That ref at ACAC must live with the call for the rest of his life

I have to say Don was very confident that day, at least he looked so. But Devon should never let it happen to that point any way (losing his hand, double faults...) He's had just a bad day. BUt the ref for such a high profile tournament must be someone who is known for being fair. Then DEvon will now has to live with the fact that "he should go more tournaments" to erase any myth. IMO, Don would have won the whole thing any way that day

[bicio]

Maybe for the Parallel Pin you're right due to the size of Devon's forearm....

About table sizes...I don't know (i wasn'there unfortunately) but it think

the table used is not adeguate to the importance of the competition and athletes involved.

Why not Mazurenko's... at high level even few inches for feet position are important.

Legs of the table are TOO much inside and I think the pinpads are a little bit shorter than 4".

Maybe someone present can say if i'm wrong or not (and i'll appreciate to know that)

THE FACT, as Fightertrainer wrote, is that Devon has lost his wrist/hand twice.

Definitively YES the bad day is always ready for anybody.... And Devon is a man as everybody.

I think the vendetta style is the most spectacular show... but competing in tournaments

is more challenging and quite tough for an armwrestler especially with these high level athletes.

I'm hoping to see Devon, Don, Tim, John, and many others from USA at Zloty this year against

Europeans athletes.

[mightyjoe]

IMO, I don't think it's a parallel pin. DEvon's forearm is too long to be in parallel pin. His forearm/hand was over the pad from lower angle. Had his wrist/hand been parallel it would have disappeared from low camera angle. The pad is about 4" high, then every parallel object (inside of it) will be away from line of sight from lower angle. Don't believe me? place a 4" hight object (or anything same height) inside the pad then squat down below the table to see if you can still see it...no see? That's why all the controversies are going on. To say it's a pin from ref's angle is an easy escape for a bad call and illogical (read above) YOu can't ref like that when world class athletes are competing, especially when top 10 level are there. Just as you can't throw out top NBA player from play off game, when it's not necesary (Ahem, remember Clyde Drexler any one...?) That ref at ACAC must live with the call for the rest of his life

I have to say Don was very confident that day, at least he looked so. But Devon should never let it happen to that point any way (losing his hand, double faults...) He's had just a bad day. BUt the ref for such a high profile tournament must be someone who is known for being fair. Then DEvon will now has to live with the fact that "he should go more tournaments" to erase any myth. IMO, Don would have won the whole thing any way that day

Fightertrainer, your speaking from your point of view as seen

on video from a low angle. Watch the video closely and look at the refs line of sight, different story from his perspective.. It's higher than level. You're leaving the refs view out of your equation. Nothing illogical about it.

BTW, the pins pads for the table at Arnolds are 3" not 4".

I don't know if you were directing your comments to me but I

did say it didn't look like a pin either way from that view.

[G-Man]

In his supermatches, Devon beat Tim Bresnan, Ron Bath, John Brzenk and Dave Randall. Even in his recent practice pulls with John, Devon looked extremely strong.

Maybe Devon underestimated Don - and many agree it was a premature call. One thing remains clear: Don Underwood is a MONSTER. He is ... EPIC ARM WRESTLING MAN.

The recent Arnold results also gives one an appreciation for what John Brzenk was able to accomplish for so many years.

Edited March 8, 2010 by G-Man

[bicio]

The recent Arnold results also gives one an appreciation for what John Brzenk was able to accomplish for so many years.

I agree 100%

[fightertrainer]

Hi Joe, It doesn't matter if it's 3" or 4" pad, the logic is stil the same. Place an equal height object on the inside part of the pad and squat down to observe it from a lower angle it will disappear from line of sight. Everyone' saying the video was from lower angle, that is exactly why it is obvious not a pin. Had Devon hand been parallel then from lower angle it would have disappeared for a moment which is nearly impossible because of his forearm length it would have to touch the pad first. I didn't direct it toward you or dislike Don's win, just a general observation like everyone else. Don's time has come to shine

[jad]

Whether it was a pin or not, MUCH respect to Don Underwood. I think everbody, myself included, expected Devon to toy with everyone there considering Brzenk wasn't pulling. Don is a BEAST! Devon is a class act and after traveling all that way and taking what some would call a questionable loss, he was up at the Crossfit booth within an hour, smile on his face, promoting our sport like nothing happened.

[Florian Kellersmann]

It seems the old issue from Bob Brown is getting out again

Don is unbelievable...very strong especially if he takes the opponent hand as he wants.

I think Devon has underestimated Don's Toproll...

(maybe i'm wrong but i've seen only this pull from AC)

Bicio

Since "Toproll" was written on Woody's cap, Devon was warned

[mightyjoe]

Hi Joe, It doesn't matter if it's 3" or 4" pad, the logic is stil the same. Place an equal height object on the inside part of the pad and squat down to observe it from a lower angle it will disappear from line of sight. Everyone' saying the video was from lower angle, that is exactly why it is obvious not a pin. Had Devon hand been parallel then from lower angle it would have disappeared for a moment which is nearly impossible because of his forearm length it would have to touch the pad first. I didn't direct it toward you or dislike Don's win, just a general observation like everyone else. Don's time has come to shine

My point exactly. We are seeing it from a low angle the ref didn't.

No big deal. Also I noticed that the ref called the pin and then a split second later

he looked for the pin. His actions were opposite of his call.

I agree that from the angle we are seeing, it wasn't a pin either way.

BTW, Don looked way bigger than he did at ROTN 5 months ago.

[bobbrown]

What impressed me the most about Don is actually the match he lost to Devon the day before. He hits Devon over but IMO he losses hand control to Devon. This showed me Don is fast but I was not impressed yet. Then they went to the straps. After the GO Devon looked at Don as if to say "I got Ya" but then Dons arm never moved. This showed me Dons back pressure and wrist are equal to Devons. Then when Don walked up Devons thumb showing me his technique was better. Then he hit Devon and broke Devons wrist back. This show his wrist is stronger than Devons. Of course he elbow fouled in the process and lost. But this is what I was impressed with.

Now for day two. Lets assume the pin was never called. Either Don keeps up the side pressure which would of put great pressure on his own wrist thus IMO causing him to lose his own wrist and then the match. OR Don brings him back up to center, works on Devons thumb then hits again. Now that would of been great to see.

With all that said. My $1.00 would still be on Devon in a re-match. But I am crazy impressed with Don.

[Schweinemann]

What impressed me the most about Don is actually the match he lost to Devon the day before. He hits Devon over but IMO he losses hand control to Devon. This showed me Don is fast but I was not impressed yet. Then they went to the straps. After the GO Devon looked at Don as if to say "I got Ya" but then Dons arm never moved. This showed me Dons back pressure and wrist are equal to Devons. Then when Don walked up Devons thumb showing me his technique was better. Then he hit Devon and broke Devons wrist back. This show his wrist is stronger than Devons. Of course he elbow fouled in the process and lost. But this is what I was impressed with.

Now for day two. Lets assume the pin was never called. Either Don keeps up the side pressure which would of put great pressure on his own wrist thus IMO causing him to lose his own wrist and then the match. OR Don brings him back up to center, works on Devons thumb then hits again. Now that would of been great to see.

With all that said. My $1.00 would still be on Devon in a re-match. But I am crazy impressed with Don.

--> besides of that, are you still rooting for Liliev or are you with your buddy now? Just curious...

[bobbrown]

What impressed me the most about Don is actually the match he lost to Devon the day before. He hits Devon over but IMO he losses hand control to Devon. This showed me Don is fast but I was not impressed yet. Then they went to the straps. After the GO Devon looked at Don as if to say "I got Ya" but then Dons arm never moved. This showed me Dons back pressure and wrist are equal to Devons. Then when Don walked up Devons thumb showing me his technique was better. Then he hit Devon and broke Devons wrist back. This show his wrist is stronger than Devons. Of course he elbow fouled in the process and lost. But this is what I was impressed with.

Now for day two. Lets assume the pin was never called. Either Don keeps up the side pressure which would of put great pressure on his own wrist thus IMO causing him to lose his own wrist and then the match. OR Don brings him back up to center, works on Devons thumb then hits again. Now that would of been great to see.

With all that said. My $1.00 would still be on Devon in a re-match. But I am crazy impressed with Don.

--> besides of that, are you still rooting for Liliev or are you with your buddy now? Just curious...

I am going with John.

[darthsith19]

I bought one of the Arnold Tables - it is in my basement right now. I will go measure it.

Elbow Pads: 7 by 7 and 1.5" tall

Pin Pads: 8.5 by 3 and 3" tall

the table legs are closer together than any other table I have ever seen, but I don't mind this. I just put my leg through the table and out the side if this makes sense. This is the official USAA table that is used in all USAA tournaments.

[jad]

Dang Josh, how'd you pull that off

[bobbrown]

I bought one of the Arnold Tables - it is in my basement right now. I will go measure it.

Elbow Pads: 7 by 7 and 1.5" tall

Pin Pads: 8.5 by 3 and 3" tall

the table legs are closer together than any other table I have ever seen, but I don't mind this. I just put my leg through the table and out the side if this makes sense. This is the official USAA table that is used in all USAA tournaments.

Well Josh as much as I like Leonard and Denise. If they are the measurements you should change them. The KEY measurements are the 8in between the 2 elbow pads. AND a 2 inch difference between elbow and pin pad heights.

[MarkH]

What impressed me the most about Don is actually the match he lost to Devon the day before. He hits Devon over but IMO he losses hand control to Devon. This showed me Don is fast but I was not impressed yet. Then they went to the straps. After the GO Devon looked at Don as if to say "I got Ya" but then Dons arm never moved. This showed me Dons back pressure and wrist are equal to Devons. Then when Don walked up Devons thumb showing me his technique was better. Then he hit Devon and broke Devons wrist back. This show his wrist is stronger than Devons. Of course he elbow fouled in the process and lost. But this is what I was impressed with.

Now for day two. Lets assume the pin was never called. Either Don keeps up the side pressure which would of put great pressure on his own wrist thus IMO causing him to lose his own wrist and then the match. OR Don brings him back up to center, works on Devons thumb then hits again. Now that would of been great to see.

With all that said. My $1.00 would still be on Devon in a re-match. But I am crazy impressed with Don.

While I'm going to agree with you that Don's hits, although they may look like he takes Devon's hand (he actually doesn't, as he ends up with bottom position, no wrist control and only a thumb to attack on), put him at a disadvantage, I'm going to disagree with you regarding your conclusions drawn from what transpires in the straps. You have to keep in mind that perhaps Devon's strongest attribute is his stamina and endurance. That being said, the longer he can draw out matches he feels he can win against adept opponents that he may face later, the better his chances are at success. This can be risky, of course, but I believe he was on A side during this match. You're also assuming several things: 1) That Devon is on the attack after the initial stop 2) That Don walking up Devon's hand is indicative of superior technique, instead of a corollary of Devon's ulnar deviated post 3) That having his wrist bent marginally back is indicative of having a weak wrist...this was the same way the slip panned out, and at the point of the slip Devon had superior position. You know better than most the advantages of the strap and its ability to negate hand position on a high hand top. Klimenko is a great example of how you can forgo wrist position if you have confidence in your arms abilities, with his wins over Ivankin, and I've seen John do it many times as well.

Just my interpretation of the mechanics that I saw from the video, and from knowing how Devon pulls.

[darthsith19]

Dang Josh, how'd you pull that off

It wasn't that hard... they are for sale on their website. By picking it up on the Arnold, I saved $45 on shipping + got a discount since the table was used (by world champions so why would I care? )

Edited March 12, 2010 by Josh H

[Schweinemann]

What impressed me the most about Don is actually the match he lost to Devon the day before. He hits Devon over but IMO he losses hand control to Devon. This showed me Don is fast but I was not impressed yet. Then they went to the straps. After the GO Devon looked at Don as if to say "I got Ya" but then Dons arm never moved. This showed me Dons back pressure and wrist are equal to Devons. Then when Don walked up Devons thumb showing me his technique was better. Then he hit Devon and broke Devons wrist back. This show his wrist is stronger than Devons. Of course he elbow fouled in the process and lost. But this is what I was impressed with.

Now for day two. Lets assume the pin was never called. Either Don keeps up the side pressure which would of put great pressure on his own wrist thus IMO causing him to lose his own wrist and then the match. OR Don brings him back up to center, works on Devons thumb then hits again. Now that would of been great to see.

With all that said. My $1.00 would still be on Devon in a re-match. But I am crazy impressed with Don.

While I'm going to agree with you that Don's hits, although they may look like he takes Devon's hand (he actually doesn't, as he ends up with bottom position, no wrist control and only a thumb to attack on), put him at a disadvantage, I'm going to disagree with you regarding your conclusions drawn from what transpires in the straps. You have to keep in mind that perhaps Devon's strongest attribute is his stamina and endurance. That being said, the longer he can draw out matches he feels he can win against adept opponents that he may face later, the better his chances are at success. This can be risky, of course, but I believe he was on A side during this match. You're also assuming several things: 1) That Devon is on the attack after the initial stop 2) That Don walking up Devon's hand is indicative of superior technique, instead of a corollary of Devon's ulnar deviated post 3) That having his wrist bent marginally back is indicative of having a weak wrist...this was the same way the slip panned out, and at the point of the slip Devon had superior position. You know better than most the advantages of the strap and its ability to negate hand position on a high hand top. Klimenko is a great example of how you can forgo wrist position if you have confidence in your arms abilities, with his wins over Ivankin, and I've seen John do it many times as well.

Just my interpretation of the mechanics that I saw from the video, and from knowing how Devon pulls.

--> i have to agree, doesnt look like Don taking Devons hand. Devons wrist looked still solid. Devon stopped Randall in a "losing" position and pulled back and im pretty sure he would have done the same against Underwood. Its similar to John and Tarras in 2004/2005/2007, even though Devons wrist looked more solid than Johns against Tarras. Im sure Devon would outpower Underwood. Strong hit, but not strong enough.

[bobbrown]

Gentleman,

I don't think you read the post accurately or did not understand the meaning. We basically agree. Notice I said that after the hit(outside straps) he LOST hand position. So I agree with you. Also this was not a down on Devon but just a point of impression on Dons part. As far as Don taking Devons wrist in the straps. He did. Can really deny that. But if the match had continued I do believe that the constant pressure on Dons wrist would of caused it to eventually fail and Devon would of taken Dons wrist back and finished which I also stated in the post. And then at the end of the post I still said Devons the one I would put my money on.