The Kinney #4

[Bill Piche]

IM: a) it didn't exist.

Answer: Everyone knew it existed (at least here on this board).  The question was on his ORIGINAL gripper he certified with. It's missing. Per Joe's words himself.

IM: b) had been tampered with

Answer: No one knows this except Joe himself since NO credible expert witnessed him closing it or examined the gripper for themselves.

IM: c) was unusually weak

Answer: There are no weak #4's. However, examining the picture one can see the handles are set very low on the spring.  This means it's likely an "easier 4" if there is such a thing (there is not). The handles are set very low. Probably the lowest I have ever seen on a 4.  So, if anything this picture lends credible evidence Joe closed it.

IM: b) it's been well used

Answer: For sure. Joe was known to do 100 reps at 50 per hand PER workout.

IM: c) We recently re-tested it.

Answer: Wait a minute here!  When was it tested in the first place?!  Prior to all the guys here figuring out all was not as it seemed (massive gripper variance), there was NO testing. Now, it's been re-tested?!  By what method?  We also know through PDA's research that testing is hit or miss at best and IM was one of the biggest bashers of "testing" when the truth came out on this board about the variances and meaningless numbers placed on them.

IM: c) it came in at full strength

Answer: What the heck is "full strength"!?  It's well known now that through seasoning a gripper will weaken and then level off to an easier level than when brand new.  With Kinney's volume, his gripper was definitely seasoned so how could it come in at full strength? By the way, what's full strength again?!

IM: d) anyone who says anything to the contrary is misinformed or has an axe to grind.

Answer: The only people misinformed are those reading the IM catalog who haven't been to this board.  Axe to grind? Again, it seems a bash of 1st COC?

I am throughly disappointed in what was written.

[Bill Piche]

Bump for those faint hearted.

Signed:

The Bad Guy

[Roark]

It's like Animal House, 'Didn't that sign used to have a

different message'? Only if you are paying attention,

only if you are paying attention. Otherwise the newer

generation, not knowing the history, accepts what the

newest version is.

[Rick Walker]

Wanagrip-

We must keep in mind that many of the people recieving this catalogue are "newbies".  Many do not even know about the COCs until this book arrives in their mailbox-I DIDNT!!!

That being said-I dont think Strossen was trying to prove anything to us.  As a matter of fact-I think he probably doesnt care to much for us grip freaks because we expose the truth.  ####-we all know that gripper was never tested-not now and not then!  He is a buisness man (Strossen) and he sells his product.  

I enjoy Ironmind's products and I will continue to purchase from them-heck check page 28-a nice big blue quote from me-RW from Punxsutawney!

Rick "still thinks Kinney closed the #4" Walker

:hehe

[Roark]

Rick,

That's the entire point: Newbies and veterans

should be getting the same version of history.

[Bill Piche]

As usual, I get dialogue OFF the board agreeing with me and people seem afraid to post on the board. Again, I am just presenting FACTS and was disappointed that again the story of the grippers is not factually presented.  Yes, I agree Rick, most will not have read this board. Which makes it WORSE in my mind to print erroneous or misleading information.  That's  not right in my mind. Oh well, again I'll be the bad guy while others seem afraid to state the facts and or make an opinion. I am sure I'll get pegged for bashing again which is NOT the case at all as I have said about 100 times.   ???  

[Tom Black]

That being said-I dont think Strossen was trying to prove anything to us.

I disagree Rick, I think he is addressing us.  Who else knows that the original 4 was lost?  And what about the "testing" what is that referring to?  Certainly, that is/was a topic here.  The newbies reading the catalog probably wouldn't have a clue who/what is being addressed by that section.  I agree with every word that Wannagrip posted, actually, it almost looks like I could have written it because it mirrored my thoughts exactly.   I think Ironmind products are great, I own practically the entire catalog, so much in fact that I'm sending one of my relatives there for gift ideas but have to warn him not to buy anything other than what's on my list (mostly new items) otherwise he would get something I have.  I think, however, that in a nutshell, calling the grippers like "uncalibrated plates" is wildly inaccurate and should not be used in future catalogs.    The differences in grippers are really not Ironmind's fault, the whole design does not lead itself to a perfectly matched device.  They should just admit that.  It's not a big deal to admit the truth, and we would certainly understand.

[Bill Piche]

Actually, presenting the facts discovered and discussed here would be the right thing to do in my mind.  I mean knowing the facts didn't prevent me from ordering another 4 or 5 grippers after the fact. I cut one, looked for a harder 3, etc.

[Bill Piche]

Oh yeah. Thanks Tom for posting your opinions.

[Tom Black]

Come to think of it, I've probably bought more grippers for the sole purpose that I know they are different.  I'm not really looking for easy ones, mind you, but ones "in between" on a scale.  They could sell more if they said "hey, we just got in a hard set of #2's and are saving them for people who care about such things."    My last #3 was selected from three of them that I ordered with some friends.  I selected the hardest one because I extended it and I'm working my way down.

[Roark]

It is no secret that Randy and I are about as opposite as

people can become on the issue of Paul Anderson's backlift.

Sometimes, rather than have people consider that I am

speaking against Randy, whom I like personally, but disagree

with regarding Anderson, I simply refrain from posting.

But when history, which is something I tend to adore, is

being altered, then something needs a front end adjustment,

no matter whether it is Wannagrip, or Tom Black or me getting

it wrong. Or Randy.

If that #4 was tested, then we are being let in on a secret

after the fact. Also, according to PDA's tests, and please

jump on my sorry lats if I am wrong, but NO GRIPPER ever

tested the same when new and after it had been closed

dozens of times.

[Rick Walker]

Okay-I guess I didnt express my opinion enough and managed to get lumped with those who are "scared".

First and foremost-we own our grippers.  We have payed our dues-we have forked out the cold hard $$ (atleast in my case) for these things.  I could care less what my gripper is tested at-who gives a flying sh*t?  I do know I have closed a gripper "tested" at 387 IPs for 3 reps yet I still can't mash Mr. SOB consistently enough to get certified.  Oh no, someone else is certified for an easy #3!!!  Bring your a$$ to my house-close my $hit-then talk your talk.

I repsect Strossen for being a buisness man.  He sells his.  As this board gets more and more popular-Ironmind does more and more buiness-controversy sells stuff.  Heck-newbies flock here-why?  Cause they typed "Grip training" in thier search engine-like I did back in January.  

I dont disrespect Ironmind and I never will.  I , for one, think Kinney did close the #4.  People are funny about stuff-no one believes anyone.  Okay-maybe He didnt test Kinneys #4-so what?  When I close the #4 the last thing on my mind will be-"does the GripBoard think I did it?"  "Did I provide enough witnesses?"  Heck no-frankly-if you "Pros" dont belive it-I could care less.

Maybe no one belives I can pull 600+?  Okay-come here-I will prove it.  Riotgrip witnessed it?  WHOS NEXT?

Thats my point-give it up.  #4s are different, #3s are different, #2s are differnet.

Rick Walker

:hehe

[Roark]

"I dont disrespect Ironmind and I never will.  I , for one, think Kinney did close the #4.  People are funny about stuff-no one believes anyone.  Okay-maybe He didnt test Kinneys #4-so what?  When I close the #4 the last thing on my mind will be-"does the GripBoard think I did it?"  "Did I provide enough witnesses?"  Heck no-frankly-if you "Pros" dont belive it-I could care less."

Rick,

Can't have it both ways. If the #4 was claimed to have been

tested, but was not tested, you say 'so what'?  So, here: if

that is the case, then what does it take for you to disrespect

the situation? You respect fiction paraded as truth?

You may accomplish whatever you can in private, but if it

is world class and you want world class recognition, witnesses

and proof are not too much to ask. Private 'records' seeking

public acclaim don't cut it.

No one is suggesting anyone should disrepect anyone else here, we are asking to be shown some respect by not being

treated as though we can't figure this stuff out.

Get busy on your #4

[Bill Piche]

Rick, how the heck did you think you were getting lumped into those who were scared?  No one even mentioned you (it was more of a general statement, not specific when I made it) and you were actually the first one to post on the claims made on the 4 in the catalog.  How many beers did you have tonight!?  :p

[OldGuy]

I doubt if Strossen has ever tested any Ironmind grippers using any kind of method sophisticated or otherwise. Has it not been written that he asked Richard Sorin to come up with estimates for the different grippers and that those numbers have been used by him ever since? When Kinney was certified , his wife was his witness and the feat was accepted and that was that. Now after all this time we read about before and after testing of Joe's gripper. We are lead to believe that he still has his gripper and it is as good as new and unchanged. He says he lost his gripper or it was stolen. How do you lose a gripper, who on earth would steal a #4 ? Can you trust a person who is also selling a tape and something called a secret weapon? Why hasn't anyone else come closer than 1/2'' on a #4 ?

[ruffhans]

This kinney thing gets talked about every few months ive noticed.  wen i first came to the grippage i was unlearned about things, now that i have been training, and coming here, i ave a better grasp on things asfar as the COCs. i would like to get the kinney video someday. i guess i dont believe that he didnt close it, i think it is very possible. however a few things keep coming to my mind that i cant seem to shake.

this is what always think about in my own mind.

#1 Brookfield and Sorin closed a #4 didnt they? why are they not certified? i understand if Brookfield use his other hand to help hold the spring. but what about Soin?

#2 as close as some realy stroooong guys on here are to a #4, and been training for a loooong time, Kinney just closed it like nothing in like what, 8 months?

#3 an awesome thing like closing a #4 was done and now the gripper is missing, and the man who closed it is sick, and seems to stay away from the grip world?

i admit all theese things sure do stack up agianst kinney! it all smells so fishy! however, only Kinney knows if he closed it or not. and if he did-thats great! im proud of him.

i guss after a few more #4 grippers have been closed it wont matter. i know that if i could close my #4 not only would i fly to Navada city to show I.M face to face, i would do allll i could to show my fellow grip brothers on this board.

#2

[Roark]

ruffans,

That's the thing about history, books continue to be

re-written based on further knowledge, so whether Kinney

closed the 4 or not will always matter.

But history books should be re-written based on evidence.

Just because dozens of people have closed a 3, and that

probably many more will do so, does not lessen the

importance of those who already have closed a 3, not does

it open the back door to allow questionable closes in.

To Randy's credit, he has been unflinching in his demand to

have certification by independent witnesses etc, so far as

I understand.

But that same process has not been in place for the 4. Even

though Joe is the only man on the 4 list, it can be accurately

asserted that 100% of those closing the 4 have not been required to meet the #3 standards.

Why is that?

[Bill Piche]

Looking at the gripper Kinney closed in his video, I am now sitting across the side of the fence that says he closed it.  Those handles are pretty darn low. Like I said, the lowest I have ever seen.  

And, I still believe his training was so radically different with no mental blocks....

[ruffhans]

I have a favor to ask you guys.

if i paid the shipping and handeling, would one of you be willing to send me your Kinney video?

i would very much like to view it, but it would be awhie before i buy it.

i will view it and send it back.

[Bearcat 74]

I say he closed it.  The handles maybe low, but who kows the spring make-up?  My hard 4 is set almost the same as the easy one, big freakin' difference!  Some springs are just mean.  Kinney is the ONLY man to close a #4, end of story.  No one else has done it, if they did they would be certifed.  Someone asked why would someone steal a gripper, why do people steal period?  I know people that will take anything they see laying around, so that's possible.  Kinney's sick and has never been out in the grip world.  There wasn't much of a grip world when he closed the 4.  His training was and is still unmatched, his mental outlook was focused on one thing.  He set a goal, and didn't quit until it was completed.   I feel sorry for the next person to close the 4.  The gripper will be confiscated and be tested about 6000000000000000000 times, and none of them will be the same, so it won't be closed.  The person to close it will be disected, only to find out that they aren't made of steel cable and titanium, so there's no way they closed it.  And look at how they trained, either not long enough, or too long, so long that they had to have cheated either way.  Plus, look how hard or easy they trained, Lord knows that no one could get there with that little, or it took them so long they couldn't be progressing........

[Patrik_F]

I dont know all the facts about the "Kinney closing the #4" thing but from what I have heard I really think he closed it. If a man tells my he did something, I believe him. I really dont need proof. This is where I think Ironmind kind of messed things up when they certified him without any neutral witness. Especially with #4 since nobody had been near closing it before, you figure it would take a little more proof than than for the #3 but the opposite was true in this case.

So I really think the problem is Ironmind here. Not that I hate them or anythining, but from what I have heard it seems like they messed up.

What is the story of Kinney being sick? I have only heard that he had some problem with his wrist after closing the #4 with caused severe pain for him. I can think that closing the #4 can be very painful and damaging to the joints and stuff because it is such an extreme strength feat.

About the first gripper he closed being stolen or lost, I agree it sounds very suspicous. But hey, it can still happen so you cant really bash him for that.

[ruffhans]

Thats what i was trying to say.

there is alot of things that dont add up. but, i do believe he closed it.

besides, he wasnt the first to my knowledge. he was just the first to be certified. from what info i have read on here, Sorin had a stronger crushing grip.  asfar as being sick, i heard Kinney had diabetes. i agree, all theese things that go along with Kinney closing the #4 are kinda odd, but they can all happen.

maybe he just had somebad luck. i guess Mr. Kinney has nothing to prove to us. if he were to just close one agian, that would end it!

from what i understand though, he would have to do alot of training just to close it agian. if i recal a post about a phantom #4 i believe Sorin said it took all he had and even he thought he mite pop something closing it.

I wonder if Kiney sits back and luaghs at all this? it can get to be an issue sometimes for all of us who are realy into the gripworld.

[OldGuy]

I do believe he closed it. I was just bringing up some of the things that have created doubt in some peoples minds. No two people are the same, and no two grippers are the same. I kind of like that.      Grippers being inconsistent creates more sales and keeps the price low. Strossen stays away from here to avoid argument and controversy. He should acknowledge the importance of this board to him though.

[3Crusher]

I believe that Joe Kinney shut the #4 gripper because he focused and modified his training specifically towards closing this gripper and was very determined to do so.  Are there Grip Board members that are as determined, resourceful, and hard working as Mr. Kinney?  Yes, but those who are, may not ever close a #4 or a #3 for that matter, because they may never find the right mix of blood, sweat, and tears that will work specifically for them.  I hate to mention genetics as I believe many fall back on this as an excuse, but this comes into play as well.  I have had the pleasure of speaking to Joe on many occasions, and he comes across as an honest man.  If the man was making millions on his video tape and secret weapon, he surely hides it well.  In speaking with Ironmind, they have acknowledged that they should have made a bigger deal out of this by getting Joe's #4 close witnessed in person.  When a #4 gets closed in the future, I would bet that Dr. Strossen takes care of it this time the way it should be.  There, that's my 2 cents.

[Bill Piche]

This is getting off topic a bit. The point of my post was that the info provided in the "public" if you call it that is still "off" from the real facts.