Closing The #4 Coc

[Teemu I]

I hate to weigh in on this thread at all since I'm kind of a mutant and my perception may be a little skewed, but here goes. I've seen and done many things by myself and others done that I would never have dreamed possible. Many things can be done and strength beyond your believed limit can be obtained beyond your believed potential or even limits. Intelligent training is the key though. The human body is an amazing machine, adaptable to the extreme. As to whether I think that anyone can close a #4, well not everyone but I would think with the right training and motivation and time a great many could. Thats my opinion anyway based on what know and see. limits are made much more in your mind than by your body.

- Aaron

I agree with you all the way, allthough I'm not a mutant. Mind is the key.

Great post buddy!

Edited May 24, 2008 by Teemu I

[PowerHouse]

I'm not saying that either that anyone can close a #4. I'm just saying don't set your limits before even really trying to find out.

I agree 100%.

Although now it seems like a pipe dream now, I will cert on the #3. Might take 10 years to do it but it will happen.

[Teemu I]

Although now it seems like a pipe dream now, I will cert on the #3. Might take 10 years to do it but it will happen.

You will, just keep on pounding away.

[timiacobucci]

Those that believe that any man with training can MMS close a #4, assuming it's not a ridiculously easy and tampered gripper, are fooling themselves. I like the never say die attitudes and optimism but to me it's like saying any man has the possibility of bench pressing 600 raw. If any man could achieve it then it wouldn't mean nearly as much or be as special as it is now. Fast forwarding 25 years probably won't see the number of #4 closers at even 100.

Firstly I suck at grippers, I have respect for them but I prefer to specialize in bending. I do have an opinion on this subject though mainly through my bending experience. I agree with you Ben that not anyone can do this feat. But it is not because thier bodies are not physically capable of adapting to achieve this task, it is because of the intelligence and sheer determiniation and will that it requires. Many people have the physical potential, not many have the mental. I think this makes the feat all the move impressive though because it is not something only the genetically elite can acomplish, most any strong guy COULD do it if they had the will and to me it is that extreme determination and will that I respect more and that make the feat all the more special.

I think Gazza and Tim T are great examples. I would say unbraced bending 3/8" crs or braced bending 10" x 1/2" hrs are nearly #4 range feats. This is just a guess they are not really comparable I realize. But if you compare the number of people that can do either of those 2 things they are even less than those who can close a #4. And those 2 guys are well above that level now. 6" x 3/8" stainless and an 8" x 1/2" hrs bends prove to me that with the will and determination the body will adapt to some really crazy stuff. Also look at these 2 men, no offense but neither of them look like supermen, but they certainly are capable of INSANE feats of strength. So I don't see why any normal guy with the will to do so cannot close a #4 in time.

[bencrush]

We could argue this all day long I guess and I really do respect the other opinions. But the idea that it's mostly mental doesn't sit well with me still. Motivation is one of the most important aspects of achieving a goal. Physical ability is paramount of course. Mental is huge too. Combine the 3 in the right mixture and you've got a world class feat. Take one out of the equation, or weaken it to a large degree, and you drastically lessen the chances of achieving that world class goal. I will always rate the physical ability or "physical base" as the most important piece of the puzzle.

Here's an example:

#1) Motivation. Offer 1 million dollars for a witnessed MMS #4 (calibrated at least 190-since that's the calibration of the #4 closed at the BBB1) close. That would certainly be enough money to encourage even the most steadfastly anti-grip guy to start training in earnest to close the #4. If 1 million dollars was really offered and paid to every man who MMS closed a 190 or higher calibrated we'd be seeing a slew of men within the next few years training for and doing exactly what they need to do to get paid the huge bounty.

#2) Physical Ability. I'd choose a man like Tex (or a dozen others that come to mind) if I wanted to prove what I already know-that a highly motivated, physically gifted or developed man, who has the right mindset can close the #4 with a focused regimen of training.

A large number of posters here apparently think this isn't necessarily a big part of the equation. Then there shouldn't be any problem finding a 70-90 year old nursing home resident who can just train a year or two and MMS close the #4. This is of course an extreme example but it illustrates the point that a good-great physical base is a necessity. Even though we're not talking about a full body exercise it's still one where a lot of resistance is at hand.

#3) Mental. There are many guys who have the mindset to close the #4. Yet they never do and probably never will despite hundreds and thousands of hours of training. Why is that? Mindset conquers all, right? Not when it doesn't have the physical base and the motivation to back it up.

[Scott Styles]

Great points Ben.

I suspect many who insist the #4 is possible for most have never tried one.

[bencrush]

Great points Ben.

I suspect many who insist the #4 is possible for most have never tried one.

Thanks Scott. I'm really not trying to be a dasher of hope. I'm just trying to bring a heaping helping of reality back to the board. It's great to have some huge goals. Achieve the short term ones you set and then set one a little higher. Keep doing that and you'll go far. You can tell yourself all day that you'll close the #4. And you might. But you may have a lot more motivation, physical ability, or mental drive to do it than the general public. I eventually want to close a #4 too. Do I think I'm above average in any of the 3 aspects that I've mentioned? Yes. But those 3 aspects are fluid for everyone. Motivation wanes and then soars. Physical ability comes and goes with injuries and training. Mental drive for me also wanes and soars at other times.

[The Mac]

Whether an individual can actually close a #4 will only be known in retrospect, but I believe everyone should be training like one day they will be able to.

This being Olympic year, across all the sports and events there are probably only a handful in each who have a realisitic chance of winning (and, of course, being a competition only one individual/team will win each Gold) but I would bet that there are many, many thousands more people who crawled from their warm, comfortable beds this morning to head out into the rain to hit the streets/gym/pool etc inspired by the thought that it could be them.

[wscorpion]

There are only a couple of hundred people in the world training grip.

Maybe a few thousand training grippers.

There are many more training strong man / strength.

If those guys (who have the right mindset) would focus on the #4, a lot more certs will be done soon.

---------------------------

A few years ago bending the red was something special.

Now it's just a nice stepping stone like the 60d, but that's it.

As long as something (like braced bending 10" x 1/2" HRS) isn't done by many people yet, it is special, just like the #4, and people will worship it.

But honestly, how many people truly focus on the grippers? I don't believe too many do. You have all other kinds of grip feats which are also interesting.

But the ones truly focusing on the grippers, they will get the great results!

Just like the ones truly focusing on bending, like Gazza and Tim T for example.

That's the true will needed to close that #4, and most people don't have it

--------------------------------

Joining the green barrettes:

Approx. 150 people start the training. within the first week several will drop out.

Within a few weeks more will drop out.

Close to the end of the training, only 8 remain. All others have dropped out. A few dropped out because of injuries, but most dropped out because a lack of motivation.

Now, are those 8 special and gifted? Maybe in a way that they can keep themselves motivated, but their body is the same as 99% of the population. It will still bleed if you cut it with a knife, it will still bruise if you hit it with a stick.

It will tire if you use it a lot in a very short time, etc. Yet they manage to do what others can't........

-------------------------------

Quite smoking:

A lot of people try, but a lot less actually succeed....

Do they have a gifted body which allows them to quite smoking easier then the rest of us?

Don't think so

Just believe in yourself and go for it, I know I will!

Edited May 25, 2008 by White Scorpion

[Teemu I]

Whether an individual can actually close a #4 will only be known in retrospect, but I believe everyone should be training like one day they will be able to.

My thoughts exactly, well said.

[Pancake Sprawl]

There are only a couple of hundred people in the world training grip.

Maybe a few thousand training grippers.

There are many more training strong man / strength.

If those guys (who have the right mindset) would focus on the #4, a lot more certs will be done soon.

---------------------------

A few years ago bending the red was something special.

Now it's just a nice stepping stone like the 60d, but that's it.

As long as something (like braced bending 10" x 1/2" HRS) isn't done by many people yet, it is special, just like the #4, and people will worship it.

But honestly, how many people truly focus on the grippers? I don't believe too many do. You have all other kinds of grip feats which are also interesting.

But the ones truly focusing on the grippers, they will get the great results!

Just like the ones truly focusing on bending, like Gazza and Tim T for example.

That's the true will needed to close that #4, and most people don't have it

--------------------------------

Joining the green barrettes:

Approx. 150 people start the training. within the first week several will drop out.

Within a few weeks more will drop out.

Close to the end of the training, only 8 remain. All others have dropped out. A few dropped out because of injuries, but most dropped out because a lack of motivation.

Now, are those 8 special and gifted? Maybe in a way that they can keep themselves motivated, but their body is the same as 99% of the population. It will still bleed if you cut it with a knife, it will still bruise if you hit it with a stick.

It will tire if you use it a lot in a very short time, etc. Yet they manage to do what others can't........

-------------------------------

Quite smoking:

A lot of people try, but a lot less actually succeed....

Do they have a gifted body which allows them to quite smoking easier then the rest of us?

Don't think so

Just believe in yourself and go for it, I know I will!

is Andrus Murmets certed on the #3? i saw and interview with him and Zyndrunas Savickas and he said he close the #3 but was a little short of the #4. he also said he didn't think it was good for training because when you do strongman it's more about the support grip.

[mobsterone]

Whether an individual can actually close a #4 will only be known in retrospect, but I believe everyone should be training like one day they will be able to.

My thoughts exactly, well said.

Unless they cheat or are misleading... see the other threads today.

[wscorpion]

is Andrus Murmets certed on the #3? i saw and interview with him and Zyndrunas Savickas and he said he close the #3 but was a little short of the #4. he also said he didn't think it was good for training because when you do strongman it's more about the support grip.

I don't get it

What's your point here?

[Teemu I]

Whether an individual can actually close a #4 will only be known in retrospect, but I believe everyone should be training like one day they will be able to.

My thoughts exactly, well said.

Unless they cheat or are misleading... see the other threads today.

Again, good thoughts..that is why I brought up my suspicions about Steels beeing Timmy, and right I was.

[mobsterone]

That they might be capable but that doing so would serve them not at all. I train with strongman competitors at our Whey Gym and support many such events. We've seen again and again that the gripper as a tool does not help most strongman events. Support grip and thick bar (inc RT work) does but not grippers.

[wscorpion]

That they might be capable but that doing so would serve them not at all. I train with strongman competitors at our Whey Gym and support many such events. We've seen again and again that the gripper as a tool does not help most strongman events. Support grip and thick bar (inc RT work) does but not grippers.

Agreed, but those people do have the motivation to push their body to the limits and beyond, that's why if strongmen competitors would focus on grippers the #4 would fall many more times

[mobsterone]

True.

[Jacobs86]

I'm not saying that either that anyone can close a #4. I'm just saying don't set your limits before even really trying to find out.

Bingo!

Yes I might not ever shut the four, but then my friend wasn't supposed to be able to walk again, but he and I, don't know till we try

[ae_yogi]

I'm not saying that either that anyone can close a #4. I'm just saying don't set your limits before even really trying to find out.

Bingo!

Yes I might not ever shut the four, but then my friend wasn't supposed to be able to walk again, but he and I, don't know till we try

I agree entirely. I would just like to add that while training for any goal one must remain detached from the results, and keep his focus on the process. I have seen those who are too attached to the results of their training are easily dejected by failures and setbacks and will make bad decisions to reap quick gains.

I will train like I will someday close the #4, but I will focus on the quality of my training that it is not too much nor too little and done intellegently. What results can come will come and I am doing everything in my power to bring those results.

[lloyd80s]

hi,

I always heard people saying that you have to be geneticlly gifted to close the #4

and that always frustrated me

is that true?!

Yeah it's true, to close a #4 you need to be gifted in the sense that you have the determination to work you ass off, train HARD HARD HARD and then some. It's a feat that only a few have managed and just look at these guys, it's shows you how special they are. Magnus was THE WORLDS STRONGEST MAN at one point and Kinney show's how gifted he is though to mentaly defeat the #4 way before he actualy closed it. You need to be gifted not in hand size or forarems but in your mind to work up to a #4.

[timiacobucci]

This is an interesting discussion. I don't think the essence of this debate is about a gripper really but the old one of genetic physical potential vs mental drive and willpower. I do agree with Ben that your body certainly has allot to do with how easy or hard a certain goal will be to achieve, but the more first hand experience I have with extreme forms of training like steel bending, the more I am really starting to believe that the mental aspect of training has a much much greater effect than I ever thought before.

Think of tibetan monks who can willfully slow their heart rate to frighteningly slow levels. I have no idea how to control my heart rate at all really. If I didn't know the truth of this I would have said it was silly and impossible, that heart rate is purely physical and no thought process on my behalf would alter it.

Now look at Gazza. The stuff he has done many people thought was completely impossible in a similar manner. He never beleived this and acted as such, and now he is the only one (for now) that can do these things. Is this a coincidence? No offense to him but physically Gaza is no Zyndrunas Savickas, but he forged his body to be capable of these feats by sheer force of will. The factors of this are not genetic it seems to me to say so is to severly underate the actual insane effort and will he put forward towards this development. I might say the same of you as well Ben. How focused and intense was your bending training to be where you are at? It is a cop out to say you have a better physical advantage that allows you to make faster gains, you busted your ass and I will have to do just the same to achieve similar goals.

I beleive the body is incredible but actually somewhat stupid in a sense. It is geared for survival and adaptive response. Training is mearly forcing an alteration in the normal adaptive response of your body to grow and alter and strengthen various systems and in a larger sense in a very drastic manner as well when compared to the normal efficiencies the body would strive for on it's own. So would it not make sense that if you have a preconceived notion of your own physical limitations that your will and guiding focus for altering that adaptive response are going to be greatly limited?

I am not saying nothing is phsyically impossible. I am just saying I am now more than ever less willing to judge other people's or even my own limitations so quickly. Like I said some may have a harder time some easier, but I certainly cannot rule out anyone, even a 90 year old nursing home resident if they had the psychotic will of a Gazza.

But importantly I would say less people have that will than would have a genetically easy time of it. Hell look at guys like Dennis Rogers, allot of times it is the guys that start out with less that learn most truely the falsness of their limitations and forge their will to achieve things once thought impossible.

If you are genetically gifted and told you can do anything and things come easy to you what happens when you face a challenge?

What if you were always told you would never be great and you persevered and learned to beleive in your own will power and work hard as hell to achieve your goals, and learned also that the limitations others impose on you have about as much effect as the air blowing around you?

With an ideally unlimited mindset I cannot say with any certainty what the phsyical limitations of any human body might be. But again my point is that I believe this quality is even more rare and thus even more special than any physical genetics.

This really starts to get into an objectivism/subjectivism debate but which would you take as a greater compliment? (this is to anyone not just Ben) My saying that you had acheived the things you have because it was enevitable with the superior genetics and physical capabilies you were born with once you began training in earnest. Or to say you achieved these things because you focused and formed your physical abilities through intense training and an iron force of will. Or a hardened alloy steel will as we all know this is actually much stronger than iron.

[Tim71]

Hmmm. Very interesting points.

Several points from my limited point of view. I kinda agree with Ben on this one. My Dad's side of the family was always gifted to be very strong and retain it with very limited work.

Mental aspect of the feats of strength: I think mental is very important but I believe that it works in the negative. Simply put, I've handed guys steel who probably could've bent it physically but it psychs them out and they think it's even harder than it is. I don't think I can give average Joe a motivational talk and hand them a 80d spike and have them bend it. Like I said, it's my opinion that it's important but you're in essense elimitating a negative factor.

Now, I think a person should train like they are one of the physically gifted who can close a #4 with reasonable effort. If you never make it, so what, you've had a great workout. I'm just starting grippers as Ben can tell you and I plan to have the mindset that I could be the first to close a BBpro. Do I think anybody can accomplish it with training that will allow a normal life? No.

I think the problem is with grip, is that the exceptionally gifted individuals who could close the #4 and larger grippers, are naturally drawn to strongman stuff because of more notoriety and more importantly, large paydays for the top guys. If like Ben said, somebody offered a million dollars for every #4 close, then those guys would be hammering the training and probably have great results. Offer 5 million for the first BBpro close and I suspect the WSM guys would attack it with a vengence and probably someone would do it.

I'm betting not everybody is capable of it though which is fine with me. I didn't start all this to be normal.

Slim is a great example. Like Dennis Rogers says, "there will only be one hammerman" and I agree. Dennis does some suprisingly good hammer levers for his size in Slim's DVD but Slim is IDEAL for hammer levering. Those crazy wide hands of his with wide bone structurs and crazy thick tendons are primo for hammer levering. Simple physics dictate that he will be capable of more then the same strength person with average hands.

Great discussion guys!

Tim

[1stCoC]

The #4 is not magical but the difficulty level in relation to what I have personally observed in the world of strengh individuals in the past 45 years makes it a task of rare exception for those humans with gifted bodys, mind and spirit. It is attainable but is at such a high level on the scale of "human ability" and if done on proper equipment by accepted rules not many will ever complete the task. IF it were easy or attainable by enthusiasm, dedication or magic workouts all the people worldwide on this site would be shutting the 4 ...and they are not. I know of a couple I would think have those "things" "gifts" or "abilities" to reach that level. Remember we are humans, not really changed in the last 10,000 or so years and unless by, cheating,changing rules, drugs, support exoskeletons, we and our performances in movements of strength remain about the same. The gripper , Jumping, and weightlifting are all examples of srength/power tasks with some technique thrown in but if you look at the records they have changed very little in the last 30 years so, believe me hard work by an "average guys" sadly, will not result in dozens closing the #4 in the near future. Where are all the guys that have been "close" to closing the #4 over the past 10 years???? Did they all take pro basketball contracts ? Good luck to one and all and I await the day to see a #4 shut ccs out of the package by the rules! RS

[Mlstrass]

Richard pretty much summed up my thoughts on this topic and in a way that most should understand as not being negative or limiting, just being realistic...

[jad]

MMS on a 200# or less #4 is achievable for many but certainly not everyone. As far as certing under the current rules and the most important word is 'current'; genetics and luck play the biggest role.