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Poll: Genetics And The #4


pdoire

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I apologize for busting on you like this on your board, but it is just such a discouragement to see people hold themselves back...

I never said people should not set goals and go for them. You must set goals that are out there and then set new goals when the old ones are achieved.

So you conquered the 3, now conquer the 4. Your genetics aren't the problem as it seems, but your lack of desire to specialize your program is.

Edited by Lich
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Wannagrip
but your lack of desire to specialize your program is.

Yup, that must be it. Except I am probably one of the biggest proponents if not the biggest for saying one must specialize to attain their highest potentials in the various grip feats. :stuart

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Wannagrip
Tis true but grip isn't as easy to tell. You have outlifted me on many times on the powerlifts and yet I have a better crush than you have. More detail please.

I have? I don't think so Steve.

When newbies come on here posting their backgrounds, progress, and training programs for a few months it is. Or, at least a good guess can be made.

A good indicator is when the established members think the newbie is a troll due to their starting strength or rate of progress.

Just like Steve Weiner and I thought Heath was a troll. No lie. :laugh

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but your lack of desire to specialize your program is.

Yup, that must be it. Except I am probably one of the biggest proponents if not the biggest for saying one must specialize to attain their highest potentials in the various grip feats. :stuart

Well I am glad we agree on something then.

****Wannagrip wrote:****

""I have to specialize on everything. Without dedication on grippers for example, I can't even close a #3. It took me YEARS to get to a #3 and it took the radical KTA program for me to get there.""

This means that with dedication you could close the #4. Even if it takes years and the radical KTA program. You could get there.

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You are stating what you believe as if it were a fact. Will I run a 3minute mile as long as I persist in training for long enough? Is Anthony Robbins big in Germany?

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It's more comfortable for you to say "oh this newbie is busting my chops" isn't it?

Yeah, for the two years of KB's I only dabbled in grip. Yeah, the real stuff has only just recently started grip wise. But in the whole of the last 10 years lifting, I have come to believe there is no predisposition (aside from certain handicaps) to what you can accomplish. Structurally yes, there are limits, but a nr. 4. Come on. Physically, anyone who trains for it can achieve it if they stick with it and train wisely not recklessly.

Just say you don't wanna close the #4 and let's be done with this.

Bottom line: I think your genetics claim is bullshit. It's a way out and that's all. You will never admit that I am correct since you have all those squares and the "administrator" under your name, and I just have the dumb "newbie" sign. Also, you can't prove that anyone aside from cripples, amputees, or the mentally disabled is unable to close the 4 genetically. Thus, there is no more point in arguing.

Have a nice day.

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The question here is has Wanna tried to use the KTA program..

or some other modified version to conquer the #4. Bill became

certified as a COC in 2001. It has been 3 years has he specialized

exclusively in chasing the #4??

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Rick Walker

You CANNOT ignore genetics. I dont care if it is just the hands, genetics do still play a huge roll. Saying everyone can close the #4 is like saying everyone can squat 800 pounds. Or like saying everyone can over head press 400. No way.

Case in point-I have the build and genetics to lift heavy weights. No matter how hard I train to run a 4 minute mile-it aint gonna happen. At 5'9 and 230, I could focus on running from now until the day I die, and I will never break a 4 minute mile. Now, I have a good friend that is 5'11 and 140. He can not run for months, come back and do a 4:30 mile with in a few weeks of training. He trained with me in the weight room for a solid year. We hit squats and deadlifts hard. I gained 50 pounds on my squat and deadlift. He went from 185 to 205 in the squat and 300 to 315 in the deadlift. That was in 2000. Eating like a horse and still training hard, his squat is now 215, and his deadlift is 330. He weighs 150 pounds. He gained 10 pounds in 4 years. He will never outlift me. I will never out run him. Genetics.

The hands are the same way. Yes-you could specialize and believe and be positive, etc. etc, but you still might not get the #4. Just like you might not get an 800 pound squat. Just like you might not get a 400 pound over head press.

To the newbies on the board who think "anything is possible", train your hands for a good 3-4 years, then get back to us. The gains slow down, just like they do for the body. How many guys who have been certified on the #4 have closed grippers tougher than a #4? None. There is a reason for that. If you could continue to close harder and harder grippers, guys like Morton would be at the WT by now.

If you are going for it-good luck. Just dont hold your breath...

Rick Walker :rock

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mobsterone

I have? I don't think so Steve.

I'm pretty sure of it. My best bench is only 286, my deadlift 489 and my squat 400 x 2.

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Wannagrip

I have? I don't think so Steve.

I'm pretty sure of it. My best bench is only 286, my deadlift 489 and my squat 400 x 2.

Oh come on Steve. I've seen even your partial deadlift.

When were these? Years ago? :rolleyes

I think you have a bit more potential than a 489 deadlift assuming you never injured your back.

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What have you achieved in 10 years of training, and even a little grip training that has lead you to believe anything is possible inspite of genetics? Do you feel that this board is too negative and that our leader is a poor role model? What do you think of Internet trolls?

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Wannagrip
To the newbies on the board who think "anything is possible", train your hands for a good 3-4 years, then get back to us.

This sums up where I will leave this. I should have just said this earlier Rick myself. :mosher

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Isn't it true that grip is so relatively new a sport that what

was previously seen as genetic limitations can be overcome in the future by the discovery of new techniques...new nutritional aids to help recovery....some have been spoken about in this very board.

Just like Steve Reeves was considered as big as you could get in his day...maybe one day with all the advancements possible....squeezing the #4 will be within the grasp of mere mortals.

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Bill,

In your own KTA program, that I have purchased and am currently using,

Haven't your techniques and program helped people achieve closing the #3...

people who were absolutely sure they would never have baan able to do it on their own...in their own minds...reached their genetic limitation. But, low and behold your program saved them from their despair.

Maybe other things will be developed similar to your excellent KTA program.

Then the whole argument of genetic limitations will be redefined once again.

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Lich, I seriously suggest you just stop arguing as neither of you are getting anywhere. You think he can close the four and he is completely convinced and sure he can't. There is absolutely no point arguing.

What is a troll?

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What have you achieved in 10 years of training, and even a little grip training that has lead you to believe anything is possible inspite of genetics? Do you feel that this board is too negative and that our leader is a poor role model? What do you think of Internet trolls?

I think our leader can close a #4, that's all.

I am not an internet troll. I was here before, and would have stayed, but had my own forum here in Germany for a short while to deal with.

I have been told that a 6 minute mile (i.e., an 18 min 3 mile USMC PFT standards) would be nearly impossible for me to attain due to having broken both feet in multiple places, and subsequent incorrect healing. Currently I'm at 00:06:08 on my first mile (from 00:07:30 /mi. that I ran before the injury). I was told after injuries to my spine not to handle KB's at all, and have since snatched the 48 Kg. This is not the same as genetics exactly, but the principle of overcoming is the same - and I'm not just saying, "oh, I'll never be able..."

You guys have years on me grip training wise, and some of you have years on me overall. Great. I respect that and hope to learn something. Seriously. However by the time I reach my 5th year of grip training, I hope to have accomplished a few things, and I will tell the newbies of that time to go give it hell, and the hell with genetics.

I propose that we just agree to disagree here. I'm not going to accept the genetics defeat, and you're not going to buy my "oh my god, I can walk again" positivity. Let's just leave it.

Edited by Lich
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Lich, I seriously suggest you just stop arguing as neither of you are getting anywhere. You think he can close the four and he is completely convinced and sure he can't. There is absolutely no point arguing.

OK. Your right.

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Wannagrip
Woah wait a second. Who wrote the KTA program?

I did, why?

Because I state I can't close a #4, that's somehow bad? :laugh

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Confidence is good; overconfidence MIGHT lead to great accomplishments but before you try to beat the odds make sure you can survive the odds beating you!

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It's not that complicated. Gains start out fast and easy and get harder as you go. After 5 years of hard training as an adult, you should have a pretty good idea of your potential.

If it takes you 5 years of hard training to bench press 225, you're never going to do 600. If we can all agree there, then the question becomes how difficult of a feat is the #4? I think Wanna has a pretty good idea, and newbies really don't have a clue.

There are dreamers and there are realists. No point in getting all worked up about it.

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mobsterone

Oh come on Steve. I've seen even your partial deadlift.

When were these? Years ago? :rolleyes

I think you have a bit more potential than a 489 deadlift assuming you never injured your back.

It is true that I have an 'nasty' partial (subtle smug look on face) and can one hand lift 240k right and 225k left but the last time - and it had been years since I full deadlifted - I equalled my old 220 kilos record. I then had an old back injury annoy me for weeks after. So I tend to leave it alone.

There in lies the rub. I have the potential to beat 220 kilos / 489lbs but am held back because of problems. Straight backed partials, one hand or another, would have you think I was good for 550 or even 600.

It may well be the case that a few here might have done the 4 under the setting rules but now cannot under the credit card rules. Short stubby fingers and the like. But all things being equal (hand lengths etc) I am of the feeling that way more than we might think could well be capable.

It has, after all, taken me a very long time to get where I am and if you'd have asked me about partial deadlifting 1000+ lbs or some of the other feats I am now capable of when I started 25 years ago I had looked at you kinda funny. I think I got as far as I did on some lifts because I had the attitude of seeing how far I can go and not knowing where that might be. Others may have seen what I could do - but I didn't know.

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Good post Steve.

One thing I would like to say - getting the #4 would be easier than winning the Mr O. Reason? Only one person can ever win the Olympia per year - there are no such limits on #4 closers. ;)

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It's not that complicated.  Gains start out fast and easy and get harder as you go.  After 5 years of hard training as an adult, you should have a pretty good idea of your potential.

If it takes you 5 years of hard training to bench press 225, you're never going to do 600.  If we can all agree there, then the question becomes how difficult of a feat is the #4?  I think Wanna has a pretty good idea, and newbies really don't have a clue.

There are dreamers and there are realists.  No point in getting all worked up about it.

So just curious, what classifies a newbie? If I am a newbie at say, roughly a month, of solid grip training, and can already almost close the #3, then under your rules I should have a damn good shot at the #4. Or, if all my sideline grip bullshitting around for the past two years counts, then am I still a newbie? Just curious.

Mobsterone just wrote that he has been training for 25 years. Maybe then in that context, someone who has trained even for five years is still a newbie. So, is there a chart or something to define what exactly newbie means? Just looking for a little consistency here.

A different question to Mobsterone:

Blob weights and thick bars of 2.5 inches and above: Similiar training effect since the hand is spread just about as far (say a 3" bar compared to a 35 lb blob)??? Also very curious to know what your opinion is on the Holle it Up dumbbell for moves other than lifting, i.e., pressing overhead with the camming effect? I like my cammed DB, but notice some minor pain in the thumb pad after overhead work with it.

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