Questioning the integrity of Mash Monster certifications

[Glitch]

For the mods: Apologies if this topic is in the wrong forum, feel free to move it to the correct one.

I have been following the new Mash Monster procedures relatively close and gotten to know the requirements needed to certificate on any gripper. The rulebook at the time of writing this message is here:



So far I have seen greenlighted closes from multiple Mash Monster certified people, all which have been fully deserved. Congratulations to the people who have certified so far.

However, I found out today that @C8Myotome has had their certification attempt redlighted. I saw this through his IG feed, in which he wrote publicly:

"Apparently 22" is standing too far, to keep the gripper in frame while setting, and there's an unwritten rule you need to be 3" from the camera and can't move your body at all. Also, apparently this is a "deep set", after set blocks were decided not to be included in the rules."

As of this moment he has uploaded the full video in YouTube, available to be seen here:

After watching the video, it is evident that:

1. The distance from the camera is close enough that you can see the gripper is closed on at least one of the attempts. As the rules say, even one close is enough.

2. The gripper never leaves the frame. During setting it can be seen going near the bottom of the camera frame, but it never leaves it. Derek also stays in the frame during the entire video.

3. Nowhere in the rules it says you need to be 3" from the camera. No idea where that came from.

4. None of the closes were deep sets, there was more than 20mm between the handles during each close (I personally would argue the width to be even closer to 30mm, but that doesn't matter). Also the rules specifically forbid using any kind of a setting block.

So my question is; Regarding the integrity and credibility of Mash Monster towards the future, are there any other reasons we are unaware of why Derek's certification attempt was redlighted? Because as of now, with the information we have, the rules were followed during all stages of the certification procedure and the attempts were still redlighted.

Tagging @Cannon and @dubyagrip just in case, do you (or anyone else involved in judging certification attempts) have any comments regarding this situation?

[dubyagrip]

The judges decisions are final.  The consensus was that the video was poor quality and sets and closes weren't conclusive. Again, judging is final.

Please keep the discussion on this topic civil and constructive.

My opinion is that Derek should just practice filming and lighting things better. He would easily certify if he put more effort into that and tried again.

[DoctorOfCrush]

I will preface this with the fact that I am not a judge. 

22" must refer to where his back foot starts because by the close, those gripper handles are much further away from the camera than that. I think the 3" comment was just some hyperbole, not something that was actually stated as an unwritten rule. 

The sets seem ok (again, not an actual judge), but the handles are just hard to confirm as closed with how far away they are. In all reality, I don't think the judges should have to cycle through freeze frames and zoom in to confirm a close. 

There is really no reason to not just get closer to the camera. 

[dubyagrip]

There are no distance requirements.  It just needs to be clear that the set is good and the handles touch.  The judges did not feel his video provided that clarity.  I don't know what else needs to be said.

[Glitch]

7 minutes ago, dubyagrip said:

There are no distance requirements.  It just needs to be clear that the set is good and the handles touch.  The judges did not feel his video provided that clarity.  I don't know what more needs to be said.

Perhaps some additional specifications in the rules section would be in order to prevent future disqualifications like this?

 

23 minutes ago, dubyagrip said:

The judges decisions are final.  The consensus was that the video was poor quality and sets and closes weren't conclusive. Again, judging is final.

Please keep the discussion on this topic civil and constructive.

My opinion is that Derek should just practice filming and lighting things better. He would easily certify if he put more effort into that and tried again.

Considering Derek's video is 1080p quality and objectively done in good lighting, the issue lies elsewhere.

[DoctorOfCrush]

1 minute ago, Glitch said:

the issue lies elsewhere.

Yes, here: 

18 minutes ago, dubyagrip said:

It just needs to be clear that the set is good and the handles touch.  The judges did not feel his video provided that clarity. 

 

[slazbob]

Definitely a bit too far …and would have to pause to see the set depth and close.

nobody is getting paid to judge, so making it as easy as possible for them should be the goal. 

[Cannon]

I am happy to address some of these questions, but will not set a precedent that "no pass" results will be belabored in public.

 

53 minutes ago, Glitch said:

"Apparently 22" is standing too far, to keep the gripper in frame while setting, and there's an unwritten rule you need to be 3" from the camera and can't move your body at all. Also, apparently this is a "deep set", after set blocks were decided not to be included in the rules."

There is no distance requirement. No numbers were given to Derek in any feedback. The requirement is that the judges need to clearly see sets and closes on the video submitted.

 

53 minutes ago, Glitch said:

1. The distance from the camera is close enough that you can see the gripper is closed on at least one of the attempts. As the rules say, even one close is enough.

A single attempt needs to get two out of three white lights to pass. A visible set here and a visible close there does not "add up" to a successful attempt.

 

38 minutes ago, DoctorOfCrush said:

In all reality, I don't think the judges should have to cycle through freeze frames and zoom in to confirm a close. 

The judges are not required to edit the video, take stills, go frame-by-frame or zoom the video. Many do use the technology available to them to try and finalize a decision on a tough call. Ultimately I trust their final call and am very thankful to have them on a volunteer basis.

 

53 minutes ago, Glitch said:

3. Nowhere in the rules it says you need to be 3" from the camera. No idea where that came from.

It came from Derek.

 

I have full confidence in the MM judges. It is the same crowd as the prior certification and you can see who they are under GripBoard Staff. They are some of the most seasoned and upstanding members of the community and we are all just doing our best.    

[bencrush]

2 hours ago, Cannon said:

I am happy to address some of these questions, but will not set a precedent that "no pass" results will be belabored in public.

It feels icky.  I'd take my lumps and do a better job of filming.  

[dubyagrip]

Just now, bencrush said:

It feels icky.  I'd take my lumps and do a better job of filming.  

Yes, we've all failed.  I don't understand the drama.

[Bearcat 74]

3 hours ago, dubyagrip said:

Yes, we've all failed.  I don't understand the drama.

 

Yep, I failed the original mm3 first go.   I redid my cert and moved on.  
 

Actually I failed an mm7 and at least one 4 cert as well. 

[Blacksmith513]

Every body has to held to the same standard. That’s why we have standards.

[Luke Blackwell]

I'm really suprised he stood that far away. Just being closer would have cleared a lot of doubt

[DoctorOfCrush]

6 minutes ago, Luke Blackwell said:

I'm really suprised he stood that far away. Just being closer would have cleared a lot of doubt

I think he does because of his full body windup (to keep the gripper in frame), but he’ll just have to shift closer once he’s set. Or change his windup sequence to be less dynamic.

I have faith he’ll figure out a way to make it work and pretty easily get the cert. 

[Luke Blackwell]

5 minutes ago, DoctorOfCrush said:

I think he does because of his full body windup (to keep the gripper in frame), but he’ll just have to shift closer once he’s set. Or change his windup sequence to be less dynamic.

I have faith he’ll figure out a way to make it work and pretty easily get the cert. 

That was exactly what I thought. He does have a very aggressive set that needs the extra space

 Filming grippers is tricky for sure

[ZRMMA]

@C8Myotome I know you fail all these certs the first time or two to keep everyone on their toes (coc3, CTD, and now this). Just have that skeleton hold a flashlight for you to improve the lighting and you'll be golden champ! 

[Glitch]

5 hours ago, ZRMMA said:

@C8Myotome I know you fail all these certs the first time or two to keep everyone on their toes (coc3, CTD, and now this). Just have that skeleton hold a flashlight for you to improve the lighting and you'll be golden champ! 

Let’s keep it civil.

[Fist of Fury]

First attempt looked good but it's impossible to tell for sure because of the video. It's just too far away.

So it would have been redlighted by me as well.

As far as the integrity of the MM certs I think it's really solid. Far better than any other certs.

Edited November 22 by Fist of Fury

[matek]

I agree that it's too far away to tell. Judges need to be absolutely sure that the handles are fully closed, and they cannot whitelight it based on smg like "If I have to choose, I’d say it was closed" or "it's more likely it was closed than it wasn't".

But the set (of the first attempt, at least) was way over parallel. The gap is much wider than a handle. But it's not like it matters in this case.

Anyways, I'm sure Derek will redo it and cert no problem.

Edit: most modern smartphones can shoot videos in 4k. I recommend recording and uploading these videos at the highest resolution you can, it makes a huge difference on a large display.

Edited November 22 by matek

[Glitch]

16 minutes ago, matek said:

I agree that it's too far away to tell. Judges need to be absolutely sure that the handles are fully closed, and they cannot whitelight it based on smg like "If I have to choose, I’d say it was closed" or "it's more likely it was closed than it wasn't".

But the set (of the first attempt, at least) was way over parallel. The gap is much wider than a handle. But it's not like it matters in this case.

Anyways, I'm sure Derek will redo it and cert no problem.

Edit: most modern smartphones can shoot videos in 4k. I recommend recording and uploading these videos at the highest resolution you can, it makes a huge difference on a large display.

I agree with what you've said, albeit the core problem lies with whatever the judges consider a good quality video with good lighting.

If the judges are not required to zoom the video or take screenshots to verify the close, and that the judges decision is final, it can set a precedent where the athlete can close the gripper multiple times and still get disqualified for any reason without any possibility for reconsideration. When we are talking about the future of Mash Monster in terms of reputation, you need accountability on this from the judges as well, no matter if they are paid for judging or not.

But then again, I understand a simple human error and lack of certainty because of video quality etc is and has always been a thing with online certs, so naturally it is something that just happens. It can be solved by buying the third tier subscription to GripBoard and thusly getting unlimited MM cert attempts.

[DoctorOfCrush]

55 minutes ago, Glitch said:

I agree with what you've said, albeit the core problem lies with whatever the judges consider a good quality video with good lighting.

If the judges are not required to zoom the video or take screenshots to verify the close, and that the judges decision is final, it can set a precedent where the athlete can close the gripper multiple times and still get disqualified for any reason without any possibility for reconsideration. When we are talking about the future of Mash Monster in terms of reputation, you need accountability on this from the judges as well, no matter if they are paid for judging or not.

But then again, I understand a simple human error and lack of certainty because of video quality etc is and has always been a thing with online certs, so naturally it is something that just happens. It can be solved by buying the third tier subscription to GripBoard and thusly getting unlimited MM cert attempts.

I don’t believe that this is the smoking gun-type situation that you think it is. And I don’t think the others who have replied do either.

The attempts didn’t pass. The judges gave reasons, which I don’t believe they’re required to even do that, but they did so to guide future attempts for this individual. The judges’ decision is final. That’s it. Time to move on and re-attempt the cert. 

I’m not worried about what effect failing these attempts or the reasons given will have on the reputation of the Mash Monster certification going forward. What I AM worried about is the prospect that we are going to re-litigate failed attempts like this. A failed attempt is a failed attempt. These don’t then go to the GripBoard for a vote. 

I don’t remember this happening under the previous cert, and I’m glad it didn’t. 

[Climber028]

It's always better to have a cert that is too strict instead of too loose. It's not a problem if someone might be able to do the feat and doesn't end up on the list, it's a huge problem if someone is on a list and they don't belong there. Totally agree with the entire rules set and trust the judges for their calls on this 

[Glitch]

27 minutes ago, DoctorOfCrush said:

I don’t believe that this is the smoking gun-type situation that you think it is. And I don’t think the others who have replied do either.

The attempts didn’t pass. The judges gave reasons, which I don’t believe they’re required to even do that, but they did so to guide future attempts for this individual. The judges’ decision is final. That’s it. Time to move on and re-attempt the cert. 

I’m not worried about what effect failing these attempts or the reasons given will have on the reputation of the Mash Monster certification going forward. What I AM worried about is the prospect that we are going to re-litigate failed attempts like this. A failed attempt is a failed attempt. These don’t then go to the GripBoard for a vote. 

I don’t remember this happening under the previous cert, and I’m glad it didn’t. 

Yeah ultimately I agree - The attempt did not pass and reasons were given, even though the results are more open to interpretation but as matek said, judges need to be absolutely sure it is closed, not 99% there. And there has to be 2/3 who think the same way.

Good to have a cert program that is too strict rather than too loose with qualified certs, like climber028 said above.

[Fist of Fury]

40 minutes ago, DoctorOfCrush said:

I don’t believe that this is the smoking gun-type situation that you think it is. And I don’t think the others who have replied do either.

The attempts didn’t pass. The judges gave reasons, which I don’t believe they’re required to even do that, but they did so to guide future attempts for this individual. The judges’ decision is final. That’s it. Time to move on and re-attempt the cert. 

I’m not worried about what effect failing these attempts or the reasons given will have on the reputation of the Mash Monster certification going forward. What I AM worried about is the prospect that we are going to re-litigate failed attempts like this. A failed attempt is a failed attempt. These don’t then go to the GripBoard for a vote. 

I don’t remember this happening under the previous cert, and I’m glad it didn’t. 

I agree with this. This shouldn't be the case. If you have objections I think it should be solved by speaking directly to the judges and if you're not given any reasons for failing, then you can complain about it publicly IMO.

I know the judges don't need to tell a reason but to be honest I think they should. Because it's really easy to do at the same time you "press" the red light.

Edited November 22 by Fist of Fury

[Cannon]

  

1 hour ago, Fist of Fury said:

I know the judges don't need to tell a reason but to be honest I think they should.

Judges are required to give a reason for red lights. And I pass along feedback from the judges whether it relates to the attempts or the video. We did troubleshooting with Ben Helms before his MM190 attempt and he made great adjustments to his video.
 

1 hour ago, DoctorOfCrush said:

A failed attempt is a failed attempt. These don’t then go to the GripBoard for a vote. 

Well said. And at this point I have closed this thread. I am not looking to provide a platform where everybody weighs in about a cert result. 

There will be close calls and controversial results. As the certs move forward I believe that impartial judging, strength, and sportsmanship will prevail.