TNS or Wide Set Closes

[Ben Helms]

Id love for people to chime in about this topic. Which is better sweep training? Table No Set, or Wide Set Close?

I feel like tns is good if you want to do that Baraban TNS certification but if its just sweep training for lets say, the Captains of Crush gripper certification, I feel like getting a good placement in your hand using your off hand and doing a wide set would be more beneficial for sweep. (Besides actually training on a credit card) Lets just say you have a very clean and crisp credit card set but want to close heavier grippers not using the card. 
While TNS does train sweep well, the closes can be hit or miss if you dont get you fingers on the handles right. Even getting your fingers in the right spot uses a good amount of energy, but also strengthens those finger by working in the placement with one hand.

This discussion is not mentioning hand size because there are narrow grippers out there that work for all sizes like the new Atomgripz, N series Baraban’s, and Silarukov’s. 
Id love to see others peoples takes on which they prefer and please provide details as to why. You could always mix it up and do both on different training days or a mix in the same day but what Im asking is which do you think is better at strengthening your sweep strength in a gripper. 
Just to clarify if you dont know what sweep is, its the first part of the 3 stages of the close, from start to parallel, then the second portion is parallel to the last 3-5mm, and the last portion is 3-5mm to close (aka the crush)
 

[Climber028]

I would always value wide set over TNS. You get better purchase by using your off hand to get optimal placement of the gripper even if you aren't applying extra force to close the gripper

I see it as the same way as using your off hand to get the perfect setup on a pinch implement, then removing the off hand and completing the lift. It's possible to get a grip with only one hand but it might not be perfect and then you're leaving pounds on the table for an arbitrary reason. Getting your lifting hand in the ideal position is difficult and in some cases impossible by only using one hand

[DoctorOfCrush]

I’ve come to believe that TNS is good for one thing: getting better at TNSing. If that’s your goal, it’s what you have to do. The ergonomics, at least for me and how I am able to stabilize the gripper in a particular position is completely different in a TNS compared to reps with a set. Back when my palm was bruised, I trained only TNS on my right hand, and my TNS certainly improved, but I didn’t notice a lot of carryover to my sweep strength. Once I started incorporating 38mm sets, however, I did. And I felt that my ability to get any particular gripper to parallel for an MMS attempt also felt like it required less effort. 

The different ergonomics and the amount of wasted energy in the TNS just make it a different beast entirely and, IMO, not ideal for improving sweep strength. 

(On a side note, it is amazing how every non-grip person on the internet thinks TNS is the only thing that counts, at least the few that comment whenever I post a YT short.)

[dubyagrip]

Training wide set and ccs on grippers with a really wide spread had always served me well in developing a brutal sweep. TNS was never a training method for me.  I see that as more of a feat.

[Ben Helms]

12 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

I would always value wide set over TNS. You get better purchase by using your off hand to get optimal placement of the gripper even if you aren't applying extra force to close the gripper

I see it as the same way as using your off hand to get the perfect setup on a pinch implement, then removing the off hand and completing the lift. It's possible to get a grip with only one hand but it might not be perfect and then you're leaving pounds on the table for an arbitrary reason. Getting your lifting hand in the ideal position is difficult and in some cases impossible by only using one hand

Yes very great points made! Thank you for your time! How much would you consider a wide set close? Maybe setting it about 10mm deep or barely moving the handles at all? Im not sure what a maximum number of mm’s it would be to call it a wide set? Is anything over parallel considered wide? For me, I consider a wide set wider than a parallel but thats just for me. Maybe wide set has an actual measurement?

@Carl Myerscough @Ivan Cuk @stranger what do you fellas consider a wide set close?

[Ben Helms]

5 minutes ago, DoctorOfCrush said:

I’ve come to believe that TNS is good for one thing: getting better at TNSing. If that’s your goal, it’s what you have to do. The ergonomics, at least for me and how I am able to stabilize the gripper in a particular position is completely different in a TNS compared to reps with a set. Back when my palm was bruised, I trained only TNS on my right hand, and my TNS certainly improved, but I didn’t notice a lot of carryover to my sweep strength. Once I started incorporating 38mm sets, however, I did. And I felt that my ability to get any particular gripper to parallel for an MMS attempt also felt like it required less effort. 

The different ergonomics and the amount of wasted energy in the TNS just make it a different beast entirely and, IMO, not ideal for improving sweep strength. 

(On a side note, it is amazing how every non-grip person on the internet thinks TNS is the only thing that counts, at least the few that comment whenever I post a YT short.)

Interesting! Would you consider 38mm a wide set close?

[Luke Blackwell]

Ccs is as wide as i go at the moment, although im primarily mms. My goal right now is closing heavy grippers, and I feel Tns wouldnt help enough with the end range. It takes so much energy just to close the gripper at all with Tns.

Edited October 1 by Luke Blackwell

[Ben Helms]

24 minutes ago, dubyagrip said:

Training wide set and ccs on grippers with a really wide spread had always served me well in developing a brutal sweep. TNS was never a training method for me.  I see that as more of a feat.

Yes! Wide spreads are killer wide set training grippers. Totally forgot to mention that! Thanks man!

[Ben Helms]

18 minutes ago, Luke Blackwell said:

Ccs is as wide as i go at the moment, although im primarily mms. My goal right now is closing heavy grippers, and I feel Tns wouldnt help enough with the end range. It takes so much energy just to close the gripper at all with Tns.

I agree! I do train TNS with light grippers for set of 5 though. Doing reps tns really works my fingers in a wide position in a comfortable way. It feels like a strength training workout pump youd get doing bench or triceps. That muscle pump is the same feeling i get in my fingers lol its freaky. 

[stranger]

@Ben Helms I'd consider 38mm to be wide i guess. Below parallel is narrow.  Everywhere else is the correct set depth. 

[Luke Blackwell]

25 minutes ago, Ben Helms said:

I agree! I do train TNS with light grippers for set of 5 though. Doing reps tns really works my fingers in a wide position in a comfortable way. It feels like a strength training workout pump youd get doing bench or triceps. That muscle pump is the same feeling i get in my fingers lol its freaky. 

  Good stuff.

  I Like doing a high rep finish with my trainer, 30+ wide reps. Feels good after a hard workout

[DoctorOfCrush]

1 hour ago, Ben Helms said:

Interesting! Would you consider 38mm a wide set close?

Yes, I would. For me, the metric is 20mm/parallel. Any narrower is deep and anything wider is wide. That’s just how I think about it. 

[Cannon]

1 hour ago, stranger said:

Everywhere else is the correct set depth. 

WORD

[gripmaniac]

12 hours ago, Ben Helms said:

Which is better sweep training? Table No Set, or Wide Set Close?

I feel like tns is good if you want to do that Baraban TNS certification but if its just sweep training for lets say, the Captains of Crush gripper certification, I feel like getting a good placement in your hand using your off hand and doing a wide set would be more beneficial for sweep. (Besides actually training on a credit card) Lets just say you have a very clean and crisp credit card set but want to close heavier grippers not using the card. 

While TNS does train sweep well, the closes can be hit or miss if you dont get you fingers on the handles right. Even getting your fingers in the right spot uses a good amount of energy, but also strengthens those finger by working in the placement with one hand.

This discussion is not mentioning hand size because there are narrow grippers out there that work for all sizes like the new Atomgripz, N series Baraban’s, and Silarukov’s. 
 

In my response I was going to mention hand size . . .but I'll refrain.

I'd like to point out that you don't necessarily need to close the gripper when you're training sweep. Sure, it's nice - but what is the point of this targeted training? 

Personally I got more benefit out of TNS for multiple (3-6) controlled squeezes/attempts per set.  Yes, they are awkward and taxing. . . . but I genuinely felt they helped my sweep AND overall crushing strength. 

Never did more than 4 sets - unless I was using progressively lighter grippers.  Sometimes I'd use a 20 or 30mm block to gauge progress - if I couldn't sandwich the block with the handles it didn't count.  Really forced me to focus on what I was doing !!!!

 

[Ivan Cuk]

On 10/1/2024 at 10:45 AM, Ben Helms said:

Id love for people to chime in about this topic. Which is better sweep training? Table No Set, or Wide Set Close?

I feel like tns is good if you want to do that Baraban TNS certification but if its just sweep training for lets say, the Captains of Crush gripper certification, I feel like getting a good placement in your hand using your off hand and doing a wide set would be more beneficial for sweep. (Besides actually training on a credit card) Lets just say you have a very clean and crisp credit card set but want to close heavier grippers not using the card. 
While TNS does train sweep well, the closes can be hit or miss if you dont get you fingers on the handles right. Even getting your fingers in the right spot uses a good amount of energy, but also strengthens those finger by working in the placement with one hand.

This discussion is not mentioning hand size because there are narrow grippers out there that work for all sizes like the new Atomgripz, N series Baraban’s, and Silarukov’s. 
Id love to see others peoples takes on which they prefer and please provide details as to why. You could always mix it up and do both on different training days or a mix in the same day but what Im asking is which do you think is better at strengthening your sweep strength in a gripper. 
Just to clarify if you dont know what sweep is, its the first part of the 3 stages of the close, from start to parallel, then the second portion is parallel to the last 3-5mm, and the last portion is 3-5mm to close (aka the crush)
 

I'd say training the sweep is not super important since its the last few mm that matter the most when closing a gripper. If your hand is big enough to hold a credit card position then the sweep wont be much of an issue. Since you can close more a 20mm with the handle placed on the first crease than if it was slid back and 54mm, the sweep of that lighter gripper you're trying to ccs will not be limiting factor unless your hands too small to hold that position and you then need to sacrifice lot more leverage to pull it off. Open hand strength like thickbar would carry over to sweep strength pretty well, otherwise its mostly coordination issue. 

[Carl Myerscough]

On 10/1/2024 at 9:10 AM, Ben Helms said:

Yes very great points made! Thank you for your time! How much would you consider a wide set close? Maybe setting it about 10mm deep or barely moving the handles at all? Im not sure what a maximum number of mm’s it would be to call it a wide set? Is anything over parallel considered wide? For me, I consider a wide set wider than a parallel but thats just for me. Maybe wide set has an actual measurement?

@Carl Myerscough @Ivan Cuk @stranger what do you fellas consider a wide set close?

I don't really think there is any exact measurements. I consider 20mm and below deep, 20 - 40mm medium. But if is say medium I usually mean 30mm, and wide anything above 40mm. As Ivan said sweep is really no limiting factor to be worried about. 

However, I always set the gripper down if I can to between 20 and 35mm irregardless of the type of close I'm going to do, then open the hand up as necessary from there to potentiate the system and set up the stretch reflex. So whether it's a block or card I will always set it lower than the starting width.

Tns is a skill and different thing all together, the secret being to learn how to pull very hard initially with just the index and middle finger and then wrap the pinky as late as possible. 

For general training I think it's best to open each rep up to about 30mm, this gives a good training effect. From that 30mm width you can do a specific block of ccs or deep set as desired and the transition isn't to hard. Doing just deep set is perfectly fine, but the transition to ccs is just too much and similarly just ccs to deep set isn't easy.

If I'm doing a ccs day or a deep set day or even tns, all my warm up sets will be 20-35mm. For ccs and tns in particular this is important because if you do all the reps through full range you'll be shot before you've started and can't get any work in. They will take you far beyond warming up into fatigue before you get to the heavy sets.

[Ben Helms]

Thank you @Carl Myerscough & @Ivan Cuk for your insight! Excellent explanation on setting and sweep. Much appreciated!