gazza Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Does anybody know the difference in poundage between the 3 grades of bolt,also there relative hardness to bend compared to a Med 60d nail,not there poundage over the 60d,more there hardness in the actual bend. Also does anybody no wether the carriage/coach bolts in England compare to the US equivalents. Lastly how much harder is a Red than a grade 5 and Grade 8 bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 From my bending, the grade 2 normal bolts are compareable to most 60D's, sometimes much easier. The metal looks tough and shiny, but some bolts are noodle-soft. The grade-5's that I have are considerably harder than 60D's. Unless it's a specaliy made 60D, made in batches of 12 for special cases, I would say no 60D on the market comes even close to the grade-5's. I think some one mentioend that there was a 60D harder than a grade-5, but I greatly doubt it and would like to find the source of these magic-60D's. If 60D's are in the 260-330 range, grade-5's are in the 346-365 range. The normal bolts are in the 250-290 range. I own a few grade-8's, but have not attempted them. The better benders would have to comment on them. From what I heard, they are a bit easier than the RED nail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 Thanks Eric. The main reasons i ask is,being in England it is sometimes hard to compare like for like i u-shaped a carriage bolt unbraced 6"x7mms zinc plated which i later tested at 370lbs to bend by the deadlift through loading pin method,i later tested another one of the same batch to make shure it was not a one off,both took 370lbs to bend 40degrees. looking on Nutty .com they are the same carriage bolts as on there with the round heads,what i want to no now is,are these upto a hexhead grade 5 bolt or inferior,seeing as mine took 370lbs to bend 40degrees,the poundage should bear this out,but are they softer metal than the hexheads,i am a little confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Steve Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 I do not know much about #s that it takes to bend things. I would say that a 5 grade bolt is like a good 60d cut down 1/2 inch to an inch. One thing I have learned in my short time in this game is don't think about the #s or how hard the bend is. Know that you can bend it then do it. Grade 2 is like a 60d nail to me and 8 grade feels like its two 60ds. Its a beast!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Ultimately, I don’t think you can really add numbers to nails with out a calibrated method of measuring the bending force of these nails. For me, I have a rough idea of what’s what and how things compare to each other, but in the end it’s all the “Godfrey system of measurements”. The numbers may never make sense to anybody else. In the same sense, there is the Black system, the Gazza system, and the Bender53 system. If every experienced bender sat down with their most educated guesses, their proven results and calculated data, I bet that no conclusion could be found for actual numbers applied to nails. As for the dead-lift technique for nails, this is a good way for you two judge nails, but there are so many factors involved that can change up the numbers. Speed: The faster you lift the weight, the more force on the nail. Easier nails can be lifted faster, and may appear to bend at lighter weights. This can be resolved by a slooow lift. Grip: If you grip the nail with the whole hand, it will take much more weight to bend as torque is reduced. When I dead lift nails on a loading pin, I do it with just my index fingers at the very end of the nail. This keeps it accurate from nail to nail, but limits dead lifting much more than about 350lbs. Steel Flexibility: Terry Duty pointed this one out, and he’s absolutely right. You may be able to test a nail with a loading pin dead lift, and get an low number, but then find that it is more difficult than steel you’ve bent which had a much higher number from the same test. This is due to the flexibility of the metal. When you first apply your strength to the nail, the hardest part is just getting it started. A flexible steel will bow, allowing you to use your strength better. A harder steel won’t, preventing you from effectivly applying your strength. To the loading pin, there isn’t a difference, but to the dynamics of how the hand and body bends the nail, there’s a major difference. In the end, we’d need a set press with exact machinery and calibrated gauges, like the PDA machine for testing their grippers, to really make any sense of what numbers really mean. What it all boils down to is what Steve said: One thing I have learned in my short time in this game is don't think about the #s or how hard the bend is. Know that you can bend it then do it. That’s all that really matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 I have recently used Tom Black's deadlift method of testing bars and nails, trying to lift at the same speed and having a pause when the weight is up. I found that method very close to what I guessed. I have figures from 5 tests, here they are for your interest. 1. 6" long x 6mm thick round rod, used by the novices in last years nail bending champs. Bent to 16mm @ 80k (176.3lb) 30mm @ 90k (198.4lb) 68mm @ 100k (220.4lb) Right angle @ 105k (231.4lb) 2. 6" x 6mm nail. Bent to 6mm @ 110k (242.5lb) 15mm @ 120k (264.5lb) 25mm @ 130k (286.5lb) 28mm @ 140k (308.6lb) 53mm @ 150k (330.6lb) Right angle @ 160k (352.7lb) 3. Two 6" x 6mm nails taped together. Bent to 3mm @ 180k (396.8lb) 11mm @ 200k (440.9lb) 65mm @ 220k (485lb) Right angle @ 230k (507lb) 4. Ironmind Red bar. Bent to 3mm @ 180k ( 396.8lb) 9mm @ 200k (440.9lb) 10.5mm @ 220k (485lb) 23mm @ 240k (529.1lb) 82mm @ 260k (573.1lb) Right angle @ 270k (595.2lb) The 5th test is someone elses nail, and I don't want to mention this one. I feel that knowing what poundage you are doing, and knowing what poundage you are aiming for, and how far you are away from cerain bends is very useful. I gripped the wrapped nail with my two hands in the same position that I would if I was to attempt to bend it. Hope you find the info interesting, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 David Any info that you can supply is always interesting and useful I did the nail and bolt test the same way as yourself,my hands were right next to the loading pin pivot/nut at all times,so that i would get the same affect each time. I have various 60d nails here that range from 264lbs to 396lbs.Some are from Pat,Big Steve and Rick Browne(Zcor) I have some 7" nails sent to me by David Herzeler(the Swiss)These tested out at 376lbs,the same nail cut too 6 3/4" took 398lbs to bend. As you say it is nice to be able to sellect a poundage nail/bolt for progression. I also tested some HRS 6.5mms thick steel,the poundage i found to bend these lengths are as follows. hrs 8"x6.5mms=160lbs hrs 7.5"x6.5mms=184lbs hrs 7"x6.5mms=209lbs hrs 6.5"x6.5mms=237lbs hrs 6"x6.5mms=274lbs hrs 5.5"x6.5mms=309lbs All bends including the nails were to between 40-45 degrees. Like Big Steve says just go for it But sometimes the jumps are to big,for me anyway. David i shure did get a good grip workout from the nail deadlifting.LOL. Those 2x60d,s taped together and the RED are Beastly poundages. I would just like to say a big THANKYOU to eveyone that is into the Bending,for all your support,information,knowledge etc,it has helped me out a great deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Gary, Thanks for your test results. Yes, I'd like to reiterate Gary's point and say thanks to everyone who is helping me with my bending knowledge. They know who they are. I'll be pleased when I can bend my two 6" nails taped together unbraced, then I know I'm only some 90lbs away from the red. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 If anyone wants me to calibrate their bars or nails please send them to me. It will give me a workout. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 David I Retested all my 60d,s before,here are the results. 60d nail Wickes brand=264lbs...UK bought nail. 60d nail Lloyd+sons brand=283lbs(bright coloured)....UK bought nail. 60d nail Lloyd+sons brand=314lbs(dark coloured)...UK bought later than above. 60d nail Robert Bernards brand=327lbs...UK bought nail. 60d nail Forward brand=344lbs...UK bought nail. 60d nail sent by Rick(zcor)Browne=388lbs...US sent nail. 60d nail sent by Big Steve(Bender53)=396lbs...US sent nail. 80d nail sent by Big Steve(Bender53)=310lbs...US sent nail.....These feel much harder to me than 310lbs,so i tested another one and it was correct at 310lbs. 7"x7mms nail sent by David the Swiss=376lbs...European sent nail. I also have a load of different nails sent to me by PAT,but cause i only have 1-2 of each of these nails,i do not want to waist them on a test,some of them feel as hard or harder than Big Steves 60d at 396lbs.Those Spirals feel very Brutal.Needless to say i am not up to this level of strength yet. David do you no off anywere in the UK that does CRSx5/16 it would be interesting to test this out against the RED nail. I see by your testing that your 2xtaped 60d,s are still 90lbs off,of the RED,would you say that those 2taped 60d,s that you tested are medium strength 60d,s or harder. Pat was right alot of his 60d,s are way harder than a grade 5 bolt,i just this minute tested one of his 60d,s labelled medium hard it took 391lbs to bend 40degrees, Phew my hands are wrecked. All i can say is that the MEN that bend these things are ANIMALS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Great stuff. By the way, I tested Big Steve's nail and it came very close to your figure at Right angle @ 175k (385.8lb). I have some other nails from Steve to test later when I get some time. I am going to be sorting out all the bars for the future British and European Grip champs, and will have some great challenge bars that I will be sending to guys like Pat and Steve. All the bars I will be using will be HRS, because I wanted consistency between all the varying widths. So I haven't really checked out any CRS sources. I'd say that the 6" nails I tested there are medium strength, certainly compared to some from the U.S. You are right these men are something. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 David Have you also noticed that the US nails are all slightly thicker than the UK ones. Those 60d,s of Big Steves are realy Brutal. The CRS that will be used at the next Brits and Europeans,will it be 6mms,8mms and 10mms or the imperial equivalents and will the above bars be a certain length say 6" or will you be judging shorter bends than 6" as well. Yourself and Arne should do very well once you both master the best style/technique for the unbraced bending,as you will both be able to put that awesome wrist strength to good use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Gary, The bars for next years contests will rise in millimetres, and also be in differing lengths from 6"-7", to add more increments. Yes the U.S. nails are slightly thicker and of course tougher. I hope to be better at bending for next year. We shall see. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 7"x7mms nail sent by David the Swiss=376lbs...European sent nail. Argg that's the tougher thing i can bend unbraced and there are 60Ds harder than that !??... I thought i could bend things beyond the american 60Ds And perhaps the nails of The Swiss are harder than mine It's like a long long way to the red nail ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 Amaury Like the 60d nails that i have found here in the UK,there seams to be a great variance in strength in the US 60d,s,i think that some of PATS would take over 400lbs to bend. Have you found much variation in the European nails,i think the 7"x7mms nails that i got off the Swiss are the same nails you have,these are tough,they took about the same poundage to bend as my 6" x7mms carige/coach bolts,but the Carrige/coach bolt was harder for me to bend,probably because of the 1" difference in length. I 2 feel that the RED for me is along way away,but i will get it oneday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the swiss Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 (edited) Hi Gazza, are you quite sure the nails I sent you are 7mm and not 6.5mm? I thought I'd only sent you 5.5, 6 and 6.5mm nails. may be wrong though. anyway, cool info there, thanks ! david Edited September 1, 2003 by the swiss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 David : i hope you're right ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Steve Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Gazza, The 80d nails are 1/4 inch thick and 8 inches long. It is called a skinny spike. I had them special ordered. These are great to cut down and bend. I think they have a lot of carbon in them. They are also good bridge nails from nail to nail because they can be cut to length. I have found them stronger then blue or cold rolled stock cut to 6 inches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted September 1, 2003 Author Share Posted September 1, 2003 David The Swiss. You were right those 7"nails you sent are 6.5mms and not 7,Still tough tho. I managed to u shape one today cut down to 6" unbraced,it was a struggle.LOL. Big Man I have managed to u shape a couple of those 80d,s you sent ,you are right they are a good deal harder than the blue,i will start cutting them down and trying them,i need to rest for a few days as little injuries are starting to appear. Those 60d,s you sent me are awesome,it will be a while afor i can get one of them unbraced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimwylie1 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Gazza Didn't know that you'd got into nail bending? I'm trying to work on this but I'm pretty pathetic at the moment . I purchased some 60D nails from Wilko's the other expecting them to be easy. I can't currently bend one un-braced. I'll send one up to the Wirral for testing if you like? Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSW Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Jim, A 60 penny is an advanced bend. Try bending some 6mm stock cut to different lengths. i usually bend a 7"x1/4" and then a 6"x1/4" piece of steel for warm ups before i try a 60D nail. For me at least, the warm ups make it a lot easier to bend the nail. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimwylie1 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Robert Where can purchase such steel in the UK? I can just about bend a normal 60D nail unbraced but this particular brand seem very tough . I need to get a lot stronger over the next 9 months for next years iron grip championships. I'd appreciate any tips Thanks Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted September 1, 2003 Author Share Posted September 1, 2003 Jim What style are you useing,with your hand and wrist power the 60d,s should be toast.LOL Of coarse all 60d,s are not created equal,you might have a tough brand,The 60d,s i have range from 264lbs to 398lbs and i aint even tested any of Pats Beastly ones yet. Send it on over mate,its goin down.LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted September 1, 2003 Author Share Posted September 1, 2003 Jim I will try and share my out look on bending with you,but remember,i am only a baby compared Pat,Steve w,Big Steve,Tom Black,Amaury,RSW,the Swiss,Terry Duty,Eric etc,But here is how i see through my mind and what applies to me. Bending to me is mostly mental,strength and technique.I AM and WILL get stronger.My technique IS and WILL get better. Mentally i always bend till it HURTS,this i feel ius the way for me,i am always treading the thin line of injury,but i feel that the more i can overcome the PAIN the better bender i will become,a bit like you doing those massive weights on the V-Bar,you new you was gonna hurt/lose your finger/thumb nail,but you new you had to stand the pain to accomplish the lift,you just need to apply this now to your bending. Be careful tho,once on the road to unbraced bending,you will be metal shaper for life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimwylie1 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Gazza I'm using the spike bending style at the moment cause this is currently the only way that I can bend a 60D unbraced. Dave is using another method that Pat put him onto but this isn't working that well for me. To be honest the 6" nails feel very small in my big hands and I feel that I'd be do better with a longer bar that takes the same amount of force to bend (if that makes sense??). The bar that Dave is getting sorted for the comp will be in various lengths so I'll soon find out . What sort of poundage nail are you bending at the moment then Gazza? There seems to be some level of correlation between the methods you and Dave are using to measure nail strength, so I can draw some comparisons Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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