What Do U Want?- G. G. Bash #2

[EricMilfeld]

Dates: How about contesting from Aug. 8 thru 14?

LIFTS

IM grippers: a poundage awarded for the strength of gripper you close, with addtional pounds added for any additional reps.

Wrist Curl: like last contest, but with the thumbs around the bar being mandated

2 Hands Pinch: maybe plates again, or perhaps using a device with a more uniform texture?

Right Hand Barbell or Dumbell Deadlift: performed with a revolving sleeve barbell or dumbell of atleast a one inch diameter, and without knurling. Straddle the bar and lift to knee height.

Left Hand Barbell or Dumbell DL: same as above, but with other hand

Let's have some feedback. I'm attempting to accommodate all. We can make it bigger and better than before

[Patrik_F]

My first thought is a Softball lift since its easy for everyone to make their own. It is a funny and not so taxing lift. Also I think one wrist movement is enough, maybe try plate wrist curl? I know the problem there with different size plates and everything but that is a problem more or less with every event. I personally just feel plate wrist curls more fun and practical than barbell wrist curls. Just my opinion.

[gazza]

Eric

The dates are fine with me.

Since it is gonna be spread over a week,how about doin as many exercises as poss with both hands and mixing the score.

grippers left and right hand.

rolling thunder left and right hand.

Some sort of pinch left and right hand.

Plate wrist curl left and right hand.

weaver stick lift left and right hand.

Weaver sticks can be made by anyone,out of a broom handle or pole.

The softball lift also sounds good and is easy to make,possibly replace the plate pinch.

Maybe swop the rolling thunder for a thickbar deadlift leftand right hand.

Just a few ideas,what ever we decide on is fine by me.

[2strong]

what ever we decide on is fine by me. 

Me to !

[AnimalCage]

I like the idea of testing both hands. I know not everyone has a Rolling Thunder. Maybe just any implement 2" thick or bigger to simulate an RT-type lift.

On the plate wrist curls, do we use any weight for max, or pick just a standard plate and do reps?

I like the softball lift idea, as long as everyone has access to a softball. We are talking a world-wide event here. I may just make one of those anyways.

I love the way this is developing.

[EricMilfeld]

Good ideas. Yes, contesting both hands on all events seems like a good idea to me.

Here's what I'm trying to accomplish. I'd prefer that all the equipment be easily attainable. I'd like finger length to be as little a factor as possible. I know you would probably feel differently about the latter goal, Gazza, but I'm thinking the concensus would probably be to eliminate finger length as a huge factor. Also, I don't object to plate wrist curls, as long as it's with max weight, as I'm trying to make this a contest of absolute strength, and not endurance. The question is, how do we account for different sized and shaped plates, and ensure that the weight added to the plate is done so in such a way that no one is given a leverage advantage? This is why I opted for the barbell wrist curl in the last contest. I kinda like the softball idea, though I've never tried the lift. Would you all say finger length as a factor is kept to minimum on this lift? If so, it would be a nice miniature blob type lift. We could contest this in addition to some type of conventional pinching. Do all softballs possess about the same "grippability"?

Edited May 8, 2003 by eric milfeld

[Jonathan McMillan]

I like the idea of trying a weaver stick or lever lift of some kind in the next contest. I think it's important to try and hit all the main groups of grip strength in the contest.

Jon@han

[Bob Lipinski]

Eric,

One thing which might make the competition more fair is a point system like strongman- 5 for first, 4 for second, etc.

This would weigh all events evenly, so that the lifts where the huge weights are lifted will be evenly stacked with lifts where the differences will be tiny. Total lifted just doesn't seem right with grip contests, where the different "lifts" have huge poundage variations.

[EricMilfeld]

Good idea Bob. Now we need to figure out a good point system, should we go that route.

What do you all think of Patrik's softball idea? Are softballs consistent enough in terms of construction and materials to include in the contest? Can all of our foreign buddies attain one? I've never tried this lift, but it does strike me as a fun one.

The levering, at first glance, seems to be a difficult event to contest with any high degree of objectivity. Any advice?

[Patrik_F]

I am not a softball expert, perhaps any of the americans can answer that question better? I had a hard time even finding a ball in Sweden. None of the sports stores sells them, I had to contact a Baseball Club to get me one. There arent many Baseball Clubs in Sweden I can tell you that.

The softball lift is a funny grip lift, although it does in a way favour guys with bigger hands but not that much I would think. I have done the lift on like 3-4 occasions and I have enjoyed it every time. It tests open hand strength and also greath thumb strength is needed. If it is included we have to agree on rules how we perform it such as not cheating and cupping your hand from under and so on.

[Incindium]

How about 2in wrist roller for weight with a certain minimum height lifted requirement. As far as the scoring each event goes I like it. How about just ranking the contestant's performance in each event and you get 1 point for placing first in an event and 10 points for placing 10th with the lowest point total for all events wins the competition?

[bender]

Softballs come in a number of different sizes too. There are different sizes for women, men, children and the type of league they are in. When I bought my soft ball and baseball for makeing grip stuff, there were four distinct softball sizes... 8", 9", 10"... I'm not sure which one I have now, but it fits my hand perfectly. I guess it would be Rorak's "Fair Ball". Oh, and don't forget about some gloveless league, I think it's in Chicago, where they use something like a 12" ball.

I also fully agree with the point system. It levels things out a bit. The extended and expanded competition time is much better too. I couldn't get to a good gym on the contest day, so went the day after to one by my house, only to wait an hour for two guys to finish curling in the squat rack... A full week would be perfect.

[underdawg]

i like the points system, and the extended time frame too. anything that gets more people to participate is great IMO. like everyone else i would like to see some different events too, but standardizing might be a problem. of course, those of us who did the last one didn't use the exact same apparatus. i guess it will require some thought, and some very detailed rules to keep it as fair as possible. if grippers are contested again i like the idea of timed holds better than reps. the timed holds seem a lot tougher to me, but a penny or something would have to go between the handles so one could be sure when the handles open. i think the one hand deadlift, no hook grip, on a 7' bar would be a good event.

[Jonathan McMillan]

Excellent point on having a point system Bob!

The softball lift sounds kindof cool, read about it in MOHS but never tried it.

Jon@han

[EricMilfeld]

I hadn't considered the possibility of hand cupping, with the softball lift. Maybe we shouldn't contest this lift? As much as I'd like to include it, I think it's one of those lifts with which creating a level playing field would prove next to impossible.

If we use points, I like the idea of first place receiving one point, on down to last place receiving points for the equivalent of his placing. For example, if last place ranks fourteenth, he receives fourteen points.

The downside to points is the fact that someone who greatly excells at a particular event is given no more credit than one who barely garnishes first on a particular lift.

[AnimalCage]

Eric,

I have an idea.

This idea uses both weight totals and placement together to determine point standings. It rewards greater achievement with more points, as well as being fair from a standings point of view. It's not as difficult as it might seem at first glance, and it works really well in Excel. (I can hear Wannagrip moaning from here ). I've created a small instruction set if you are interested.

GGBC Scoring Proposal

Thanks, Alan

[EricMilfeld]

Alan, ingenious! Did you come up with this all by yourself, or was Einstein's ghost helping you? Obviously, I would have to post the results via a link, and there would be a fairly large amount of work involved. And I'm computer illiterate, but what are wives for? First impression is most favorable. Let's look into this. What does everyone else think about this?

[Patrik_F]

Maybe have a poll on which events we want to have in the next contest? I am still pulling for the softball lift! I dont think it would be much harder to set reasonably even rules for everybody on that lift than on other lifts/events. My softball is 12" around btw.

[BulletTooth]

I'm for including the softball lift. I got my softball at Wal-Mart but I'm not sure what size it is.

How about including the brick lift?

That's a great scoring system. However, you don't need to include both percentage points for weight and percentage points for placement. Since they are both percentage based you can use one, or the other, or both, and still get the same final results.

[AnimalCage]

Not true. Perentage points for placement is evenly scaled depending upon the number of users. If you have 25 users, there are 4 points per place. First place gets 10, 2nd 9.6, 3rd 9.2, etc. Percentage Points for weight depends upon a comparison of the weights lifted. If first place lifts twice as much as second place and four times as much as third, then first place gets 10, 2nd 5, 3rd 2.5. Combine these for 1st getting 20 point, second getting 14.6, and third gets 11.7.

This addresses Eric'c concern of a superior lift not getting credit, while not basing the entire score on weight alone.

[EricMilfeld]

I'm leaning towards using the points system for weight lifted, as outlined by Alan, as the sole criteria for placement. It's fairly simple, allows for credit where one excells on a given lift, as well as prevents someone who's gifted with a "high weight" lift from gaining an unfair advantage. For example, a competitor who lifts 5% more on a deadlift type lift would gain a considerable advantage over one who lifts 5% more on a pinch lift. Alan's plan corrects this.

[AnimalCage]

It also eliminates the possibility of one "heavy weight" lift from dominating the entire competition. Example, if the comp is scored on weight alone, the 780 lbs barbell hold in a single event could eclipse four other events because the max weights are 200 and under. It would take four events to equal the one.

[BulletTooth]

Not true.  Perentage points for placement is evenly scaled depending upon the number of users.  If you have 25 users, there are 4 points per place.  First place gets 10, 2nd 9.6, 3rd 9.2, etc.  Percentage Points for weight depends upon a comparison of the weights lifted.  If first place lifts twice as much as second place and four times as much as third, then first place gets 10, 2nd 5, 3rd 2.5.  Combine these for 1st getting 20 point, second getting 14.6, and third gets 11.7.

This addresses Eric'c concern of a superior lift not getting credit, while not basing the entire score on weight alone.

Doh! When the light came on, I was nearly blinded…

You're right of course. It was just too much math for my small brain. I had to put everything in Excel to get the big picture. Here are the GGB results in raw format, AnimalCage format and Milfield format: GGB Scoring I think that Eric's idea of using percentage points for weight lifted seems the fairest. The interesting thing is that this resulted in almost the exact same rankings as the raw results: only 9th and 10th places were swapped…

[EricMilfeld]

Nice work, BulletTooth. Though the rankings remained almost unchanged, you'll notice that Tou's barbell hold doesn't overpower the effect of the other competitor's winning performances in the other "lighter weight" lifts. I'm even confused by that last sentence! But you get my drift: it's a good thing, this new fangled scoring system.

By the way, my last name is spelled Milfeld. A very common mistake. Maybe I should just change the spelling of my name

Edited May 9, 2003 by eric milfeld

[BulletTooth]

Nice work, BulletTooth.  Though the rankings remained almost unchanged, you'll notice that Tou's barbell hold doesn't overpower the effect of the other competitors winning performances in the other "lighter weight" lifts.  I'm even confused by that last sentence!  But you get my drift: it's a good thing, this new fangled scoring system.

By the way, my last name is spelled Milfeld.  A very common mistake.  Maybe I should just change the spelling of my name

Dang! First my math, now my spelling!! Maybe I shouldn't be doing it at 2:30 AM.

(Score sheet fixed.)

I see what you mean about the scoring. Tou's 780 lb barbell was over 55% of his raw score total but it's less than 25% of his total under the new system.

Either way, he's the man: