Roark Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 On the diesel power board which is usually more cluttered with trolls than serious messages, there is a discussion in progress about is bodyweight a factor in grip strength contests. Our own bseedot (Brian Carlton) is participating and offers, as usual, solid arguments. It is my opinion that the more isolated a grip feat becomes then the less bodyweight matters: grippers. But the more muscles that become involved then the more bodyweight (mass/muscles) matter- in the sense that deadlifting two heavy dumbells but being unable to farmer's walk with them, may depend of course on knees, traps etc. Some feedback please- frankly, I think what Mobster did far surpasses what Henry did with the MB because of bodyweight, but others disagree. This is one of the issues I have not formed a solid stance on, so help me out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 I have to agree with Joe and Steve's lift being bigger than Mark's. I also agree that the more isolated the less bodyweight is a factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Mark Henry has been a phenom of strength since his teens. He has all the God given assets when it comes to liffting huge weights. Mobsterone is far smaller and started from much more modest begginings. Inspite of this he too was able to hoist the MD. I am more impressed with his lift. If a man specializes on grip and neglects heavy training for the rest of his body, then in Inch type lifts he is going to suffer. Size does matter in grip, but the man who trains the hardest and wisest will overtake them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 I'd still give kudos to Mark for his work with either hand and lack of any ability to get at a MDB unlike myself and to still succeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 In so much as taller, more thickly built men will tend to have bigger, stronger hands, simply as a result of the fact that their hands are in proportion to the rest or their body; then yes, body weight is a factor. But, body weight is more of a factor in say, a deadlift, cuz it requires hips,quads, erectors, lats, abs, forearms, traps,etc., while on the otherhand it is perfectly coceivable to have an anorexic lower body and no pecs, yet possess a gorilla grip. So do we have weight classes in grip meets? No, cuz then the man who doesn't squat or poweclean has an unfair advantage. So, unless we develop classes based on forearm and hand weight , I guess we keep going like we've been going. Of course there is always the possibility of having height classes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 (edited) I think I bring a very valid point to this discussion: I have a genetic clone. My identical twin brother and I have lived two completely different lives. Me: Been lifting for 8 years, with lots of pulls. Been training my grip for almost a year. Am a soldier in the US infantry, an occupation where physical conditioning and hand strength matter. Him: Drinks lots of beer. Smokes. Is still a super-super-super senior in college trying to finish his BA. Lifts about once a month. Has no interest in healthy living. (Was recently converted to hand-strength training, by me) We have the exact same potential, and have the exact same genetic make up. Compared to my brother, I am in fantastic shape. Here comes my point: Through training, I weigh a lean 185 lbs. Through my brother’s lack of activity and sloth, he weights a Very soft 245. (both at 5'11") With all of my training, and grip specialization, I brought my thick-handled dumbbell home this last X-mas. We had exactly equal strength on the T-HDB. Then, in the weight room, he lifted more than I with wrist curling. My gripper strength was higher, and my bending’s were much higher, but all of the larger muscle group lifting’s were equal or worse. From this experience, I would say that specialized grip strength, like grippers and bending are independent of body weight, but any grip or wrist activity that uses larger muscle groups is noticeably affected by body weight. Also, I didn’t get a tape measure, but my over-weight twin brother’s wrists and forearms were much bigger than mine. Not just soft tissue, but lean muscle and tendons. Him being so inactive, I don’t understand how it could happen. Again, it all comes down to body weight. Edited January 24, 2003 by bender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Also, I didn’t get a tape measure, but my over-weight twin brother’s wrists and forearms were much bigger than mine. Not just soft tissue, but lean muscle and tendons. Him being so inactive, I don’t understand how it could happen. Again, it all comes down to body weight. It's all the beer and smokes.....I guess that joke about 12oz hammer curls had some truth to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSW Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Very interesting Bender. I always thought that steel bending favored the larger man because of the upperbody strength used in the crushdown portion. Maybe your twin will pass you in bending with a bit more work. I think grippers are pretty much independent of BW, but hand size and shape certainly come in to play. It is interesting that your think handled dumbell lifts were identical. I assume that you do train thickbar lifts? Could bodyweight be that much of a factor? Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan McMillan Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 People often say body weight gives one increased leverage....so what about the typical leverage movements? Sledgehammers and such? Jon@han Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 I've posted quite a bit on this already and I just responded to someone on DPF but I'll bring it here as it's more relevant on this board. The poster on DPF made the following statement: "And for those who think bodyweight does not matter, then certainly if the overall bodyweight does not matter, individual body parts' weights don't matter either, therefore ANY lift becomes bodyweight irrelevant, which is nonsense." To which I responded: "Bodyweight DOESN'T matter in nearly every event of grip strength. When lifting the MDB, what body part weight is also being supported by the strength of the hand? The sport of grip strength is just that, the sport of grip strength. As far as bodyweight goes, it does not correlate well to any other strength sport. Nearly all grip strength events have grip strength being the limiting factor. Therefore, bodyweight is irrelevant." To which he responded: "Brian, Would you also argue that in a two handed deadlift no other bodyparts are being lifted/supported by the hands? If you would, then do you agree weight classes in the deadlift should be abolished?" To my most recent response: "I think that my answer is yes, but let's be clear on what it is that we're talking about. My previous question hasn't been answered and so I'm not sure that we're on the same page. What body part's weight are the hands supporting in a DL? I'll tell you my answer first. I don't think they're supporting the weight of any body part. The weight of the arms, for example, is being supported by the shoulders, traps, back, etc. The hands are 'only' supporting the weight of the bar as they are at the end of the chain. So, for now, my answer is yes. "If you would, then do you agree weight classes in the deadlift should be abolished?" No. Powerlifting is not a grip contest, which is from where my entire point derives. I don't think that we can treat events in the sport of grip strength on par with other strength sports. In powerlifting and Olympic lifting bodyweight does play a HUGE factor, but these are both sports in which the entire structure of the body is required to lift at its maximum structural limit. Grip strength is different and bodyweight has far less, or nothing, to do with whether an event can be completed or not. Nearly all events in grip strength contests have, as the limiting factor, the strength of the competitor's grip. In other words, grip events require the lower arm to lift at its maximum structural load. Things that affect a lower arms maximum structural load are things like overall hand size, finger length, etc. Grip strength, as a competitive sport, is very young. The sport does not have enough data or length of time to have developed accurate 'hand classes'. If classes are deemed necessary in grip strength, then something like hand classes in grip strength would be equivalent to weight classes in powerlifting." _________________________________ For those who view bodyweight as a factor in the sport of grip strength, if we picture bodyweight as a variable on a continuum, then it seems to be said that if more people were 390 pounds we'd have more people lifting the MDB. We should also keep in mind that this is all relative. As we approach bodyweights on the continuum of, say, under 150 pounds then, yes, perhaps if those people weighed 390 pounds they could lift the MDB. The reason they can't now is, for the sake of argument, not because their grip can't support the weight, but because their body can't support the load of a 228 pound MDB. A perfect example of this is myself and the farmer's walk. I weigh ~230 and last year I couldn't pick up 275's. My weak link was not my grip strength but my low back strength. That's why this is relative. Another person weighing 230 may not be able to pick up 275's either but it may be because their grip strength isn't strong enough even though their back strength is. What if we strapped Steve into a suspended harness and placed the MDB at the height of his hand. This way his bodyweight is negated as he is not pulling anything from the ground and his body structure is not being taxed because he is being supported by the harness. Can we say that Steve will be able to lift more weight now? If we did the same to Mark Henry would he lift less? It can be argued that a 250 pound body will be more systemically tired than a 390 pound body after lifting the MDB because the 250 pound body is performing a lift that is closer to their maximum systemic load. Generally speaking I think that's a fair statement to make. But that still has nothing to do with whether or not the 250 body is able to make the lift. The 250 body is able to make the lift and the limiting factor is still grip strength. To be continued, I'm sure... BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2strong Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 I'm not sure if this is a valid point... but isn't Joe Kinney in the 190 pound category ?? Why is he the strongest guy with the grippers, when there are so many big guys out there ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Questions that might lead to other thoughts: How many certified COC are under 175#? How many certified COC are under 200#? How many Certified COC are under 225#? How many certified COC are under 250#? How many certified COC are OVER 250# and so on..... How many uncertified but well known people have actually closed a number 3# in the above weight categories? HOW many people have first time/first touch closed any number #3 gripper that falls into ANY of the above weight classifications? OR 'open up' the weights a bit how many first time-documented by witnesses- closures happened with athletes body weight less than say 250#?275#?300#?325#? The gripper seems to be a well known crushing power specific test that other body strength factors may not be involved with(it is NOT lifted but crushed by the hands)....But? Rolling Thunder?which IS more of a grip LIFT?and a piece of equipment MANY people have access to.But lets just generalize a 'pretty good' Rolling Thunder at 220#and a VERY good Rolling Thunder is 250#....and same question as above?same weight categories? The INCH Dumbell?More are available in just the last 2 years than before.Many are around the country and more people ARE actually lifting it. Same question as above?same weight categories? The Millenium?not too many have had access to it but even Steve at 250lbs is not a small man and Mark is of course HUGE. I really don't know the answers to the above but I'm guessing MOST(not all) of the 'pretty good' and 'very good' Rolling Thunder lifts and Those getting the INCH off the ground are 250lbs or more? Most? first time #3 closures were men WELL over 250#? Most COC are 225 or over??(this last one i am very unsure of) Weight and size seems relevant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 I reread my post comes across more argumentative than i wanted to be. Were serious questions.Again i DO believe most of the grip 'lifts' have been done by big men. I really do NOT know the stats on the COC's..perhaps more are UNDER 225?but I'm pretty sure ALL first time/first touch closures of the number 3 were done by big men(250 plus).....and same?with the INCH's that have been lifted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikael Siversson Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Every three months Arne Persson and I arrange the Löddeköpinge Grip Challenge. Every time about ten people walk through the gym to participate in the event. An objective observer would make the following observation. Compared to the rest of the population in the gym, most of these guys are huge. They were selected for participation on the basis of their grip strength, not their overall size. Everything is big on them, bone structure etc. I am not a big person and the main reason I can keep up with these guys is that I train my grip a lot more than they do. I have let numerous men in the gym try my grippers. The strongest (without specific training) were not the short, extremely muscular guys, but tall and large framed ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJM Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Joe Kinney closed the # 4 at a bw well under 200. Bruce White pinch gripped 2 45's at a bw well under 200 Both men have lifted the Inch dumbbell. Tommy Heslep weighs less than 200. The Holle brothers all seem to be around the 200lb mark. I think that Terminator is under 200lbs as well. I don't think that bodyweight has all that much to do with grip strength. Deadlifting uses the muscles of the back, hips and legs as well as grip. Developing those muscles to their potential will generally result in an increase in bw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 All grip specialists. BTW when did Joe pull the Inch or a replica? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 'All in all it was a good show,but after watching two of these competitions,once as a competitor last year and this year as a spectator,I'm convinced that the Rolling Thunder is"a big guys event".If you look at the line up,the lightest guy(janne Virtanen)was about 285lbs.and the shortest was over 6'2"(Brian Schoonveld),and all of these men have hand the size of catchers mitts.' MILO,Sept.2001. Author J.V.Askem reporting on 2001 Iron Mind Rolling Thunder World Championships This is JUST one(experienced and well known lifter/trainer/author)mans opinion of JUST one contest(World Championship)and is jJUST one type of grip test. But an interesting quote none the less. And -in my mind -makes Steve Millenium Lift(similar-not the same)and his 'unofficial'Rolling thunder numbers more remarkable.But again Steve at 250# is a fairly large dude. I believe J.V.is 6'1"?and was capable of a 220 rolling thunder?this part is top of my head memory and may be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 No doubt there are men of all sizes on this board. My question is did any of you guys do well at grip feats from day one? I am well over 6' and weigh up to 280. From the start I was able to perform well at any grip feat including grippers. I assumed it was my being a large person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I've had to work at it. It took me neigh on a year plus to do the No 3 COC gripper and I started training at 175 to get to 250 (or thereabouts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Harlan Jacobs Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I also have had to work hard to get my grip where it is now. Not that it's great by no means, but I could not close the #2 when I first seen it. I have always been big and thought my grip was good. I was wrong ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJM Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Mob, I would categorize you as a grip specialist as well and you weigh more than those guys. So I don't think that bodyweight is all that important. I would be willing to bet that if you lost weight you would still be able to lift the MDB. I misspoke when stating that Kinney lifted the Inch. I had a brain fart and meant to say that he could pinch lift a couple of 45's. Regards, Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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