climber511 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Records? I imagine this will open a can of worms but it may also prove of value perhaps. What constitutes a “record”? A personal record is pretty easy to define maybe but things like a “World Record” etc are more elusive. Paul Andersons Backlift and Silver Dollar squat along with the one hand DL numbers and others lifts done by old time strongmen that have been discussed on Iron History really brought the topic to mind. This is not meant to be critical of any claimed lifts but to get peoples opinions and perhaps even come up with a consensus for use, at least currently in Grip (doubtful considering this board LOL). Throughout lifting history, the terms American Record – World Record etc have been used in so many ways that it’s pretty hard to define. In sports with a long standing competition history, it’s fairly easy but not even then really. And in a sport like grip where there is no governing body – claiming a record under the “rules” of a sanctioning body etc also breaks down. When and under what conditions must a lift be done in order for the majority of people to consider the lift as a legitimate record – and can a legitimate lift not be a record? Competition, training, exhibition, with witnesses, video, differing certifications – what is it that you feel makes a lift eligible for record status? Lifters sometimes lift numbers higher in training than in competition but they do not become records – do only lifts done in competition count? If so – what status should we give, if any, to those kinds of lifts done outside of competition that verifiably exceed the competition record? Are certified or calibrated plates required? What about judges? Equipment issues, number of competitors that constitute a “competition” – weight classes, and on and on? In my mind I will start out with the stipulation that all weights must be certified or calibrated at the very least before any lift can be called any kind of record. A high quality York plate was to be within 2%. Given that number, we could be off 2# per hundred either way – with cheaper weights – it’s possible to be off much more than that. Opinions, thoughts – and please let’s keep it civil and professional. Until such time as Grip develops a governing body – and even afterwards – it would be nice if we could come up with a set of guidelines for our own use at the least. Video and video editing software has become so good now that I seldom believe everything I see anymore. Do you guys trust video as proof enough to count those lifts as acceptable for record purposes? Still pictures I can’t trust at all now – I have seen so many doctored pictures that I have lost all faith there. Due to the timing, I’m sure this will be considered a hit on Richs Axle DL but I had this typed up quite a while back – that and some other internet claims did bring me to post it at this time, I will admit. I have I admit my own ideas but would like to hear what others think before posting them. Quote When people used to ask him how it was he became so incredibly strong, it was always the same, "strengthen your mind, the rest will follow". The Mighty Atom Age wrinkles the body. Quitting wrinkles the soul. Being prepared for any random task is not the same thing as preparing randomly for any task. Greg Everett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lol999 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) This is how I approach it, from a personal point of view. For all personal records if you want them to be accepted then video evidence is a must - I'm buying a camcorder for just this purpose so if I claim to 2hp 70Kg then if you can count the plates you know it's at least in the ballpark. For all records to be comparable to others and to be ratified then "standardised" or calibrated equipment should be used and again video evidence, or credible individuals in the sport as witnesses. You could argue that calibration certificates be provided for the equipment used in non-competition record attempts that occur outside of a recognised arena such as the Whey Consortium gym. It really is a can of worms and there are more experienced people than me who can comment on this but personally I would be looking, for the UK, for the BHSA to take the lead. Edited June 30, 2009 by Lol999 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalachiMcMullen Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) To be called a record, there needs to be calibrated plates, or at least the whole lot lifted weighed afterwards to verify. This is the same for most reputable weightlifting organizations. Many of the current records are in place with calibrated weights, why change that even for a brief period of time? Lifts done in the gym are not competition lifts and there are no garauntees of the doer's honesty. I don't care if it's Jedd posting a video of a 260lb 2HP, it's believable, it's something he's doing or could do on a strong day in training, and he's been chasing the record for years, but it wouldn't have been done in competition. So it would NOT be a record. ONLY COMPETITION LIFTS SHOULD COUNT AS OFFICIAL RECORDS. I can't see an argument against this that would hold up under scrutiny. Exhibitions set up for the express purpose of finding/setting a record should count. It could be a 2HP exhibition, an Axle exhibition, a gripper exhibition, etc. So long as it is set up with a fair amount of forewarning, has more than 1 competitor, there are several witnesses(preferably people competing for the record at the very least), a reputable judge(say Doc or someone else those of us who care about these records trust), and the correct equipment (no 2 45's as a 2HP device, no galvanized 1.9" pipe as an axle, etc), I see no reason why an exhibition lift shouldn't count. I reiterate, gyms lifts should NOT be called records. Gym lifts are not records in any other sport, grip should be no different. Video evidence is no good if it's not of a competition event. Edited June 30, 2009 by MalachiMcMullen Quote Zach Coulter Goals #1- The Planche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bullitt Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Video and/or reputable witness are good enough for certs like the MMG certs, or the FBBC v-bar certs, etc. However, IMHO, for a world or (insert country name here) record, I think the feat should be performed in a competition (like Woodall) or exhibition (like the event put on by Richard at Sorinex) in front of a reputable judge. The plates or device should be calibrated or at least weighed at the time of the comp or exhibition. Again, I am definitely no expert, but this is pretty standard for other sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoC#3 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 A gym lift with non calibrated plates should not be classed as a world record. So if i were to go into the gym and pinch 120kg on video and post it here i could not claim a world record, unofficial or otherwise. If i did (and this has happened to people here in the past) i would expect to get flamed. However i think if i clearly showed the weight of the implement on a digital scale i could claim an 'unofficial world record'. IMO, the only way to get an official national/world record of any sort is to do it under strict judging, in competition and with calibrated plates. Quote real name: Sam Solomi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underdawg Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Records only happen on the platform, anything else is just a good day. Of course, with no sanctioning body beyond this board who's to say what is and isn't a record as far as the grip stuff goes. Quote Real Name: Jonathan CreasonArise...kill...eat... --Acts 10:13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Parker Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I agree that records should be done it competitions, but what about feats that are never or rarely done in comps. If everything had to be done in a comp than some feats, like a double blob farmers, would have no world records. Other feats that are maybe done once in a comp, like the 25lb plate hula, will show lower numbers than what can really be done. At the BBB where the plate hula was contested, the winner was something around 40? I think John has done around 63. Just because it is hardly ever in a comp, does that mean that now the record holder from 1 comp will be the record holder until another comp has that event? If better records are to be kept and grip is to be a more legitimate and mainstream sport, a set of events and implements would have to be standardized, say 15 events, and each grip comp would have to select from these standardized events. That being said, my favorite events are usually the odd ball unusual events and I am perfectly happy with grip where its at being an unusual sport and almost underground. I dont think it will ever be to the point where there will be pros that will make big money from competing, its just the nature of our sport but that dosn't bother me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I've addressed this issue several times in the past, though what I say falls on deaf ears and/or is distorted. If I invent a sport that involves shooting each other in the nads with a dart gun, then I can, with some confidence, claim to be the world champion if I win a tournament, whether that tournament has 20 people or 200. There's little reason to think anyone else out there is doing this sport. And so I'm the world champ of Nad Shooting. If Annie Oakley had nads and came back from the dead and joined the sport, it's pretty likely she'd take my crown. But as far as actual competitors go, I am the best. John Beatty's got a world record list for his 2.5" Crusher. I am top 5 on that list. But that means nothing. Most people don't own a Crusher or even know what it is. But still, counting actual competitors, I am top 5. So all of this is to say that 'world record' apart from context is meaningless. It's all about the talent pool. Based on my understanding of things, there seems to be a minimally acceptable quality for a talent pool that must exist for the use of 'world record' to be appropriate. Nad shooting and 2.5" Crusher do not have a good enough talent pool for 'world record' to be used for those sports. The Oly bar clean and jerk, definitely. Bench press...eeehhhh...sure, why not. Rolling Thunder? Yeah, sure, why not. To get the intuitions going, suppose I tell some folks that I'm having a great day because last night I set a world grip record. Their eyes get wide. They congratulate me. They think it's a big deal. Then they do their research and find out I'm full of shit. So 'world record' has some connotations about talent pool size that need to be adhered to. Otherwise you risk misleading people. I am going to try to set a WABDL 'world record' in the deadlift next month. But I don't tell people it's a world record. That's misleading. I just tell them I'm aiming to lift 734. In some sense, yeah, it is a world record. But when I "get real", I know in my heart it's not. -Rex Quote "It would be simpler if they had two classes: open and handicapped. If you’re under 200 pounds, under 18 years old, over 50 years old, female, retarded, or missing any limbs, you have the option to compete in the handicapped class. Otherwise you lift in the open class." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Records should be able to stand on their own. If something other than the weight prevents someone from breaking your record, you're a paper champion. This assumes common sense; i.e you don't strap up to the RT and claim a record, etc.. Quote Proud member of the Feat Cheaters Club! Captain of Crush 2003-2011 Josh Dale Wentzville, MO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grippster Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) Records only happen on the platform, anything else is just a good day. Of course, with no sanctioning body beyond this board who's to say what is and isn't a record as far as the grip stuff goes. I agree with you there. As far as we're concerned a 225lb SE close could and would be considered a record here. edit: but hey, who knows.... there could be a guy on the board doings reps with that thing that never bothers to post... Edited June 30, 2009 by Grippster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntca Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 If I invent a sport that involves shooting each other in the nads with a dart gun, then I can, with some confidence, claim to be the world champion if I win a tournament, whether that tournament has 20 people or 200. There's little reason to think anyone else out there is doing this sport. And so I'm the world champ of Nad Shooting. If Annie Oakley had nads and came back from the dead and joined the sport, it's pretty likely she'd take my crown. But as far as actual competitors go, I am the best.-Rex Thanks alot. I really needed that. Of all the times to find something so hilarious on the board, the exact moment I read this was the best. Now, maybe, I can make it through the rest of my day at work. Quote CHRIS HUNT Some people fail because they let other people's' opinions kill their belief in themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sher Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 ...If Annie Oakley had nads and came back from the dead and joined the sport, it's pretty likely she'd take my crown.... -Rex Among other things... Quote Sherrie DFW, Texas 2011 Goals: 300 lb DL 303lb uneq'd - meet 2/26/11 250 lb SQ 265 lb wraps - gym 9/12/11 150 lb BP [145 lb - meet 2/26/11] Griffin's #1 RB130 110 lb 2HP 180 lb DO Axle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 If someone is claiming a world record, etc. and has video proof, chances are they are going to have to step up and at least get VERY close at a get together, contest, etc. Way back when when blobs were gaining popularity around here and not many people had one, Jedd Johnson took one out of my trunk, then proceeded to pinch it and carry it across the Olive Garden parking lot. People didnt have to believe us, but when you see Jedd clean and press one in each hand now, you know it was certainly done back then! My 2 cents... Quote "I ain't afraid to die anymore...I've done it already." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Sprawl Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I've addressed this issue several times in the past, though what I say falls on deaf ears and/or is distorted.If I invent a sport that involves shooting each other in the nads with a dart gun, then I can, with some confidence, claim to be the world champion if I win a tournament, whether that tournament has 20 people or 200. There's little reason to think anyone else out there is doing this sport. And so I'm the world champ of Nad Shooting. If Annie Oakley had nads and came back from the dead and joined the sport, it's pretty likely she'd take my crown. But as far as actual competitors go, I am the best. John Beatty's got a world record list for his 2.5" Crusher. I am top 5 on that list. But that means nothing. Most people don't own a Crusher or even know what it is. But still, counting actual competitors, I am top 5. So all of this is to say that 'world record' apart from context is meaningless. It's all about the talent pool. Based on my understanding of things, there seems to be a minimally acceptable quality for a talent pool that must exist for the use of 'world record' to be appropriate. Nad shooting and 2.5" Crusher do not have a good enough talent pool for 'world record' to be used for those sports. The Oly bar clean and jerk, definitely. Bench press...eeehhhh...sure, why not. Rolling Thunder? Yeah, sure, why not. To get the intuitions going, suppose I tell some folks that I'm having a great day because last night I set a world grip record. Their eyes get wide. They congratulate me. They think it's a big deal. Then they do their research and find out I'm full of shit. So 'world record' has some connotations about talent pool size that need to be adhered to. Otherwise you risk misleading people. I am going to try to set a WABDL 'world record' in the deadlift next month. But I don't tell people it's a world record. That's misleading. I just tell them I'm aiming to lift 734. In some sense, yeah, it is a world record. But when I "get real", I know in my heart it's not. -Rex i agree with this. but who am i to say, i'm just a guy tryna get stronger. i could really care less about breaking world records and stuff. Quote Name: Chris Height: 6'5" Weight: 315-325lbs Goals: Rep #3, close #4 one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I feel records should be done in competitions only, with a minimum of 2 competitors, where there are at least 5 events tested. Why competitions only? Training sessions and get togethers do not require strategy. Comps due, so stress levels are up. Allowing records to be done in training and exhibitions is like adding to your home run total by what you do in batting practice and at the home run derby. Why a minimum of 2 competitors? This would be like a head-to-head showdown. You have to strategize in order to win. In a standard comp, minimum 5 people in my opinion. Why 5 events? The potential for burnout and again the requirement for stretegic weight selection. Thanks. Quote The GOLD STANDARD Feat in Plate Pinching: 2x45s Pinch Get Your Copy Here: How to Pinch 2x45s Ebook Diesel Crew Store: http://www.dieselcrew.com/store/shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I think we as a board do a pretty good job recognising World Records in Pinch etc. The BHSA recognizes it's own set of records, when the US Org is up and running hopefully the two will get together and come up with a recognized list, add to that a few more national Feds and we are well on our way there. As always with records, the key word is recognition. I thought that we were well past the question of whether lifts done outside of competition were acceptable as records, but then we had the Gillingham Pinch Brouhaha. Quote Chris McCarthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IROC-Z Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 When I joined this board, I had only really been involved in powerlifting up to that point. At the time I was a bit shocked to see people on this board doing very impressive feats of strength in garages, backyards, parking lots, etc, and then calling those feats "world records". I found it odd mainly because of the extreme strictness surrounding world records in powerlifting. I have since changed my way of thinking when it comes to grip feats being world records. I think that if a person performs a feat that is witnessed by several credible GB members, the implement and plates are weighed on a shipping/postal scale, and the whole ordeal is documented on a decent video - then it should be considered a world record until somebody beats it. At the very least, the feat should be considered a "Gripboard record". Quote Todd Coenen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Althugh relatively informal, the US guys have sort of an "organization". Enough to make records. With Rex's point, I understand about the talent pool. I think ours is improving, and I don't know how many records would be easily smashed if more people got into grip. Certainly not the pinch. Probably the grippers. I think the axle record by Andrew is not embarassing for out sport. Quote US Handstrength Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalachiMcMullen Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Rex, you make a good point, but that wasn't the point of the thread. There may be a hundred or so actual grip competitors in the world, but we are trying to change that. You know this. Debating about how stupid debating about what makes a world record in such a small group is debating for debating's sake It seems everyone is basically in agreement on this issue. Quote Zach Coulter Goals #1- The Planche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Gillingham Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I think we as a board do a pretty good job recognising World Records in Pinch etc. The BHSA recognizes it's own set of records, when the US Org is up and running hopefully the two will get together and come up with a recognized list, add to that a few more national Feds and we are well on our way there. As always with records, the key word is recognition.I thought that we were well past the question of whether lifts done outside of competition were acceptable as records, but then we had the Gillingham Pinch Brouhaha. As I've stated on here before I meant no disrespect to David's "Official" record by having a subtitle on the video that it was an "Unofficial World Record". You can only set "Official" records in competition. I only meant that the lift exceeded Martin's lift of 117kg which in my mind was the "Unofficial" record prior to me doing 261.5lbs. I tried to explain this as best I could in the youtube title but it's hard to please everyone. We ran into some of the same arguments with Rex - or someone writing about Rex - claiming a world record on the blob walk. Was it a world record? Yeah, I think so but to be clear it probably should have been an "Unofficial" world record claim since there is no authority to make it an "Official" record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoC#3 Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I think the pinch record would be beaten if more top strongmen were aware of the euro pinch, or had access to one. 2 strongmen here in the UK, Laurence Shahlaei (competed in last year's worlds) and Rob Frampton (one of the top 5 in the UK) have both used a euro pinch and done over 110kg. If they trained it with as much intensity as we do and cared to beat the world record, i have no doubt it would fall. Someone like Brian Shaw or Mark Felix (big hands, monster deadlift/thick bar ability) would probably be able to pull a world record pinch with very little training. I agree on the point made above about Andrew's axle deadlift. 450+ on this is an excellent lift, period. Again, i think a top level strongman who weighs close to 400 and has 9''+ hands would be able to beat this (i have and you all have seen videos of llifts around 500 in garages, strongman gyms and so on). Quote real name: Sam Solomi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg_uk Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I dont see the problem with records set at exhibitions, as long as they follow the same rules as normal competitions. I liked the idea they used in Australia where a different event would be contested every month, and think with more worldwide competitors that idea could work well in every country. I also disagree with Jedd on the fact that at least five events should be contested to allow a world record in any event, I don't see the need to make grip a pentathlon. Yes it is very impressive to break a world record after other gruelling events, but couldn't the bar be pushed higher if you hadn't already exhausted yourself first. I do, however, think the main grip comps should test alround grip strength, but I do see a place for the smaller events, that may bring in more competitors, as they may be strong in one event and want to compete in that, which could lead them into the alround competitions. And if the smaller events are around you can't discriminate and not allow records to be set in them. I'm yet to compete so take my views as you want, I just think the higher the records the more impressive the sport looks. The equipment is relatively cheap, and the competitors are friendly and helpful, so there is no reason this sport shouldnt grow. Quote Goals Get Stronger Lift what I haven't lifted Close what I haven't closed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamil1km Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I think the pinch record would be beaten if more top strongmen were aware of the euro pinch, or had access to one. 2 strongmen here in the UK, Laurence Shahlaei (competed in last year's worlds) and Rob Frampton (one of the top 5 in the UK) have both used a euro pinch and done over 110kg. If they trained it with as much intensity as we do and cared to beat the world record, i have no doubt it would fall. Someone like Brian Shaw or Mark Felix (big hands, monster deadlift/thick bar ability) would probably be able to pull a world record pinch with very little training. I agree on the point made above about Andrew's axle deadlift. 450+ on this is an excellent lift, period. Again, i think a top level strongman who weighs close to 400 and has 9''+ hands would be able to beat this (i have and you all have seen videos of llifts around 500 in garages, strongman gyms and so on). I agree with you on this. Our sport is very young and the "records" will certainly get pushed much higher as more people find interest. In reality, it would seem that most of the records we know of (Axle dead, Vbars, Pinch, Grippers, etc) would probably be bested by the Worlds top strongmen if they directed focus that way. This doesn't take anything away from the accomplishments that have been achieved by Grip/Pinch fanatics and it's still a hell of a lot of fun to train these events and getting stronger at them. Quote Kris 2010 goals: 450lb raw bench press 350lb deep squat DL 500lbs DO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I agree, who knows what some of the monsters could do if they applied all their energy to the grip stuff. As far as drug free guys, the Gillinghams are at the top of genetic potential for guys into grip- ie strong, tall, and just big all around. We've had some decent guys throw in with the grip crowd- Odd Haugen, Ryan Klein, the Gillinghams- and they don't totally outclass the more "normal" guys at the top of the grip game. Quote US Handstrength Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntca Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I have a good many thoughts on this. So, just kind of bear with me. First off, I am new to the sport. However, I have read a lot on the board and the internet in general regarding grip. At first, I wondered why the grip sport wasn't more in the mainstream. Then I got to thinking about it. The general public has no idea the level of strength required to perform these feats. The toughest gripper I currently have is a #2. I've never touched a #4. But, going on how tough a #2 is for someone who doesn't specifically train grip, I think (know) it is a great feat to close a #4, #3.5, or a #3 for that matter. When most people see a gripper of any kind they automatically think sports-store, Chinese-made, my 11 year-old sister can close it type of unit. Then you have blobs. Same way. I've never touched one. Just like 99.999% of the population. I have respect for the feat because I am interested in the grip game. Do I think I could lift one? Eventually. Am I going to lift one? Yea! But, there again, ask the general public about it.....yea it's just a chunk of iron......what's the big deal? I know this only touches on a couple of facets of the grip game. But, think about it. Unless you can actually lay your hands on one of these items, actually get a feel for the implements that are used to build and test grip strength; you will never have any respect for the feats that are performed with them. That's why I think all of us should do our very best to introduce someone to the sport. I know if they have even one ounce of competitive spirit in them, they will be hooked. Okay, that's my spill on that. On to the records....Being as there is no sanctioning body for grip; how could there be any “official” records? And, on top of that, why the hell does it matter? Like someone else said, this is not a popular sport. In fact, it is a borderline underground sport. And, that is the beauty of it. I feel that we (can I say that yet?) are a tight-knit, supportive group. We post videos of our feats of strength, our training logs, our certifications, etc. We congratulate each other when we set a PR. In my opinion those are the records that really matter! What I'm really trying to say is....if you lift, grip, squeeze, bend, bite, chew, or screw more than the next guy, you have a record! You can call it official, unofficial, county, state, country, world, universe, galaxy record, whatever! Until there is a sanctioning body with a set of rules, bylaws, and a standardized set of equipment, there will be no “Official World Record” anythings. Just to clarify. I love the sport. I wouldn't trade it for anything. The board keeps me sane. The people in the sport are amazing. Not only, their strength, but their attitudes as well. Keep posting the “records”. I love to watch. That is what motivates me. Keep in mind, the only record that should matter to YOU is a Personal Record! I hope I have made myself clear, and am not coming across as an ass. Quote CHRIS HUNT Some people fail because they let other people's' opinions kill their belief in themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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