Isometrics And Maximum Force Development

[timiacobucci]

I had an interesting idea regarding isometric training after watching the second part of Gaza's bend in the teeth video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2yhmIS-wT8 and reading an article by Dr. Fred Hatfield

http://drsquat.com/home/index.php?option=c...5&Itemid=28

In the article he talks about the difference between so called limit strength and Fmax.

He defines them as

5. This is the maximum amount of force you impart in your movement (Fmax).

6. This line represents your limit strength -- your 1- rep max. You never quite equal your "limit" or "absolute" strength levels in sports movements (except powerlifting) because the movements are over with so quickly.

Again at the end he says

In any sports movement, Tmax is so short that it's not possible to get all of your motor units turned on. Not even close! Only powerlifting tests one's limit strength. NO other sport does because of the time constraint.

Well I couldn't help but think of this watching Gaza, I am used to sports and fast lifting and explosive force production, and on that bar in that video he will actually push for over 5 or 6 seconds before maximum force is developed and the bar begins to bend. This is totally different than even powerlifting. I think his ability to develop the amount of force that he does and do the things only he can do at this time are very relative to this.

I can only attribute this to heavy isometric work, I have read where even advocates of isometrics say to limit them to 5 seconds. If Gaza is developing greater force well after this time then at least for bending this even is conservative.

In that same article he says

Former Soviet scientists worshipped the relationship between limit strength and Fmax. And for good cause. They believed that NOTHING should EVER be done to cause an increase in the distance between Fmax and limit strength. They believed that the DEFINITION of a great athlete was one whose Fmax came close to his/her limit strength. They believed that, in all the world of sport, SPEED is king!

While I can understand this mode of thinking seeing Gaza bend the way he does makes me think this mode of thought is fundamentally wrong.

I think an analogy for my line of thinking on this would illustrate it best. The idea is similar to breaking training plateaus by altering set x rep schemes. Say you do a 5 rep sets program and gain allot of max strength but begin to slow in progress and your long range say 20 rep endurance begins to fall off. So you train the 20 rep range and when you eventually switch back to 5 reps your max strength gains increase dramatically.

You've basically broadened your base and then can start stacking higher again.

I feel the same might be true for maximum force development and isometric training. Doing the heavy isometrics trains your body to develop more maximum force. After you have that force then you can go back and train to develop it faster and more explosively.

I am betting that in Mr. Hatfield's terms your Fmax will increase much faster to catch your distancing limit strength gained from the isometric work much faster than only training for speed strength and fmax specifically. The body strives to correct imbalances and will give this widening gap priority in adaptive response.

Granted 1 rep maxs will have a similar effect in powerlifting but I don't think that the occasional max effort day can compare to the deliberate intensive isometric work like Gaza does. I mean in his definition of limit strength he says "You never quite equal your "limit" or "absolute" strength levels in sports movements (except powerlifting)". I would say you don't even reach your absolute limit strength in a 1 rep max unless you fail it, but that is what you are doing specifically with isos.

I suppose if this concept is true it would apply to all strength training but if anyone else wants to try it out for bending I have a simple plan to try out.

I guess it would be heavy isos with stock bigger than you can bend already cheat bent to various degrees. I read isos only develop strength within 20 degrees of the angle your joints are at so I suppose that is the maximum spread between the bar bends. Remember this is 20 degrees in your bone positions not the bar itself so it is different depending on how you bend and your body type ect.

And hold it for a while and give it maximum intensity, don't just push on it, try to actually bend it. And do it for I would say 8-10 seconds based on my idea here. Maybe longer if you feel you are still gaining force. Maybe Gaza can help more on this, I hadn't payed enough attention to this when I was experimenting with isos before, but I will now.

Then after training that way for a while, switch to speed bending. Start with the smallest bar you can bend super fast, and work your way up focusing entirely on speed and explosive force development.

I think doing both of these alternatively is the key here to capitalize on the imbalance and closing and opening it to advance more quickly. That and heavy isos held for a good while.

I didn't mean to write a novel here, but I was trying to get my idea down and see what you guys think of it.

[aquilonian]

I really enjoyed this post. Thank you.

[aquilonian]

oh just one comment. Speed IS king. When you mention Gazza is taking 5-6 seconds to start the bend, just because the BAR is not bending fast does not mean HE is not TRYING to move fast. He still has to produce a Force Max. If he does not fire as many fibers at ONE time as possible (or give it his all, in other words) THE BAR WILL NOT BEND. So he is STILL producing an Fmax. The more fibers that fire the FASTER the movement, The more fibers that fire the more strength you produce, and the bigger bar you can bend. speed is king. When a powerlifter is making a near max lift the bar will not move fast, but he is moving it the fastest that he can, its just that the resistance is close to the force he is producing. Put less weigth on the bar and the weigth will go up like a ROCKET! Or in other words speed.

again that was a GREAT post!

That article is not so easy to understand because the tables don't appear in a comprehensible manner, try purchasing his book "POWER a scientific approach" its like $8 on ebay. or check your library they carry many of his books. its a good read and you wont regret the time spent on it.

[liam.mccaffrey]

i am alway surprised when it takes me 6 seconds+ to get a bar moving. Even when I feel my power is starting to tail off on a long hit, if i can manage to just hold it a bit longer the bar often moves.

im not sure why this happens, but it seems to be more prevalent with stainless bars; for me anyway

Edited July 12, 2007 by liamcafs

[Jedd Johnson]

Great thread.

[jad]

John Eaton and I were talking about how Gazza seems to hit the steel for longer intervals than anybody else.

[neilkaz]

John Eaton and I were talking about how Gazza seems to hit the steel for longer intervals than anybody else.

Absolutely !!

Gazza recommends isos for ten seconds..ie hitting the steel as hard as you can for 10 seconds. I am just a beginning bender, but it I hit into steel as hard as I can for even 5 seconds I am about ready to collapse onto the floor.

This seems all about isos training, and mental and physical toughness and conditioning one's mind and body to produce maximal output for a longer time span. I will continue to work on that in hopes of taking down serious steel some day.

.. neilkaz ..

[Tim71]

I remember reading, and I think it was Gazza that he says he doesn't explode as much into the bar as some do but rather builds up more gradually at least comparitivly speaking. Might have been somebody else but it was one of the elite short benders on this board.

I like the read and I strongly believe in those theories.

First time I ever bent a 3/4 inch bar (4 foot long) I had tried and tried for over a month or better and finally the day it bent I just decided to apply my max force like I had just failed on, only I held it for 5 seconds or so and that's when it bent. Don't know why but some steel really gives into that method.

Tim

[vikingsrule92]

Great post, very informative.

[crobb1320]

all seems to make sense,great post.

[timiacobucci]

Thanks for the compliments, I was just trying get my ideas down and hoped it might spark a good discussion.

I have tried a few tests now, I never really paid too close attention to it but I think there is something to this. I tried to crush a 6" x 1/4" square I had already bent down further and I pushed for about 5 seconds and it felt like my force must be dropping off so I would stop. One time though I kept on it even though it felt like my force was dropping off and at like 6-7 seconds it starting going and closed about 3/4" more, nearly a U, which is not easy on short square stock, at least for me.

This seems to mimic what some of you have already said.

Even when I feel my power is starting to tail off on a long hit, if i can manage to just hold it a bit longer the bar often moves.

I just decided to apply my max force like I had just failed on, only I held it for 5 seconds or so and that's when it bent. Don't know why but some steel really gives into that method.

How do you guys feel before it starts to move, does it feel like you can't possibly be pushing harder but then it just seems to go as if by magic?

I am wondering if this is more of a neural inhibition and a new level of strength and fiber recruitment is reached at peak intensity held for this long. If this is true it may really be something significant that has been overlooked in most strength training.

I am starting to think this may be a way of manually activating some part of the so called fight or flight response, maybe the combination of maximum intensity and prolonged duration is interpreted by the body as "oh crap this must be serious, unleash the dogs"

If this is true is has the potential to be very powerful and also very dangerous as a training device. These are the same neural restrictions that don't allow you to use your maximum force and fiber recruitment yet are the same restrictions that protect you from applying such force that you get injured. (I'm not pointing any fingers here Gaza)

The more fibers that fire the FASTER the movement, The more fibers that fire the more strength you produce, and the bigger bar you can bend. speed is king. When a powerlifter is making a near max lift the bar will not move fast, but he is moving it the fastest that he can, its just that the resistance is close to the force he is producing. Put less weigth on the bar and the weigth will go up like a ROCKET!

This is the crux of my idea, that the heavy long isos train full fiber recruitment and then later switching to speed work to try and recapture some of that strength outside the limited range of 5+ seconds. Because in just about everything that isn't bending this specialized strength isn't very useful.

That article is not so easy to understand because the tables don't appear in a comprehensible manner, try purchasing his book "POWER a scientific approach" its like $8 on ebay. or check your library they carry many of his books. its a good read and you wont regret the time spent on it.

I realize the tables suck, but I figured it was clear enough from how it is described. I would like to read more stuff by him, I have to return some books to the library soon so I will check that out, I wouldn't have thought they would carry it, thanks for the advice.

I can't try it right away because I am hurt, but I wonder if this might work in other areas like deadlifting. I mean nobody yanks on a super heavy deadlift for more than 5 seconds before it starts to come up, if it doesn't move after 2-3 seconds not many people keep pulling. The same with other powerlifting events, if you are stuck for too long spotters will step in, this is good for safety but may actually be preventing us from reaching our full potential.

Again just in case this is true and you want to try it be very careful.

Edited July 13, 2007 by timiacobucci

[aquilonian]

I can't try it right away because I am hurt, but I wonder if this might work in other areas like deadlifting. I mean nobody yanks on a super heavy deadlift for more than 5 seconds before it starts to come up, if it doesn't move after 2-3 seconds not many people keep pulling. The same with other powerlifting events, if you are stuck for too long spotters will step in, this is good for safety but may actually be preventing us from reaching our full potential.

Thats easy to answer. Not for movements where the muscle actually has to contract, you cant stay there 5+ seconds (unless you are not giving it your best). But in movements that require supermaximal loads like isometrics/negatives 6-10 seconds are required. on the other hand....with very submaximal loads you might actually require the opposing muscles to contract in order to lift it in a "controlled manner". Could you imagine lifting a mug of beer so fast it actually smacks you in the face?

In deadliftin you are actually SURPASSING the resistance, you are producing more force than the weights /gravity are providing. So if it does not start to lift right away it usually wont (unless you werent giving it 100%). Isometrics and Eccentric training (Negatives) you are not dealing with loads under your "ability" (concentric max) like with deadlifting. The loads are OVER your ability, in isometrics they generealy come out to %120 of your max and with negatives generally its more, like %140. different loads require different approaches. either way do it as hard/fast as you can, Both The Holle brothers and Gazza talk about being able to give your max on every attempt. Might have to ask them on their methods of achieving this.

One very interesting thing here is That its nesserary for true isometric/eccentric training to do 6-10 seconds per "rep" (3 reps is usually enough). This is something here that the members have found out through experience and nothing more, so.....many times it does not require a P.h.d. to tell you these things. I think I wrote a post about isometrics but I am not sure. Although this discussion is very fun (for me at least) I guess the moral is just to lift/bend/tear/squeeze/throw the damned thing.

However The approach you mention might be VERY useful in teaching someone how to give %100. But thats just a guess I dont know .

[climber511]

I think the steel just gets tired and let's us bend it -

[dimmers]

Doesn't the bar start to heat the longer you 'go at it'? just at the point you think to yourself 'this bar ain't moving' it then starts to give... maybe due to the gradual build up of heat? which takes time, so the longer you can apply force to a bar the better i guess

[timiacobucci]

Thats easy to answer. Not for movements where the muscle actually has to contract, you cant stay there 5+ seconds (unless you are not giving it your best).

Is it so easy to answer? What do you say can't? Have you actually tried it? I have never seen or heard of anyone pulling for more than 5 seconds before they give up. What I mean to try is a load that is slightly over your normal 1 rep max, and then pulling on the deadweight you can't move for 5+ seconds imitating the isometric stimulus, maybe the load like a bending bar will magically start to move.

So if it does not start to lift right away it usually wont (unless you werent giving it 100%).

This is what I'm talking about, maybe my idea is silly and what you say is completely true, but this is the assumption specifically that I am questioning, how do you know it won't move?

Doesn't the bar start to heat the longer you 'go at it'?

I thought about that, and it could be true, but I just didn't think that would really contribute much unless the bar was already actually bending. I mean a bar will get really hot if you work it back and forth trying to break it, but I don't think there's much going on if it hasn't even moved yet.

I think the steel just gets tired and let's us bend it

Wow man, are you personifying the steel, it gets "tired"? You might be loosing it. Not me though, I just give it a name and get angry and yell at, this one particular 5/16" piece I have taken to calling a bastard, I do wonder about that name at times though.

[Cunny]

First time I ever bent a 3/4 inch bar (4 foot long) I had tried and tried for over a month or better and finally the day it bent I just decided to apply my max force like I had just failed on, only I held it for 5 seconds or so and that's when it bent. Don't know why but some steel really gives into that method.

Personally I feel this is when the mind takes over (But I have never bent anything of that standard)

[dimmers]

Doesn't the bar start to heat the longer you 'go at it'?

I thought about that, and it could be true, but I just didn't think that would really contribute much unless the bar was already actually bending. I mean a bar will get really hot if you work it back and forth trying to break it, but I don't think there's much going on if it hasn't even moved yet.

I reckon the bar starts to heat even before it starts to bend, even if it's ever so slightly. I think that's the reason after a prolonged isometric movement on a bar it will eventually yield to the force you apply. Just like boiling water in a pan, you can boil it really quickly on a high heat, or slowly on a low heat, it doesn't matter as it will produce the same result - eventually the water boils. Does anyone think that the same applies to bending bars (except the end result is the metal bending, not boiling )? Say for example you can apply a consistent medium amount of force on a bar at a 30 second length of time (if this was possible) and the bar would eventually bend? Interesting thought huh??? or am i talking a load of sh..........

Edited July 14, 2007 by dimmers

[aquilonian]

First off, your idea is NOT silly. actually I have pondered this myself when I fist started to lift near max weights.

to answer your questions

1.yes

2. because you cant. Not applicable with weightlifting at least. It maybe possible however with highly untrained individuals. because they either dont know how, or are unwilling or scared of pulling/pushing %100 (its kind of a skill). If you're giving it %100 waiting longer wont make it %110, if anything it makes it less.

3. Sadly yes when I was first starting out, that and many other things. I wont deny I tried many weird experiments. Some not so smart. I guess I just want to find out for myself.

Some things I have noticed throughout are:

*Chances are the most impressive, strongest, biggest, fastests guys in any "gym" usually have tried EVERYTHING. Just start talking about any program or methodology westside (wich is pretty much soviet style training), 20 rep squats, 5x5......whatever, they will just pop out of nowhere and go "oh yeah I have tried that!"

*The BASIC techniques/diets/exercises ect. work the best. I guess thats why they are the basics.

*Anything I have imagined or thought of, I realized sooner or later someone before me has thought about it first.

*I should STOP trying to RE-INVENT the wheel.

However I COULD BE TOTALLY WRONG TOO! guess you're just gonna have to try.......if you do please report your findings and conclusions.

GOOD LUCK!

oh and the bar heating definitely could be an important factor, good observation.

Edited July 14, 2007 by aquilonian

[luuc]

Hey,

I want to try some isometrics soon, but I've got some questions;

-what is better (or what should you do more often): isometrics or just real bending? (And you often should one do these isometrics?)

-Is all you need a bar for the kink, a bar at like 90 degrees, and a bar completely bended?

-I can't imagine being able to give as much power on an iso as I would do on a real bend... Because somewhere you always know that you are not able to bend it, and because you know that, you aren't really trying... But on a bend I always try to bend it, even if it's frozen for 15 minutes, I rest a minute and just give it another shot because I know it is possible..

Thanks!

(Sorry for bumping this thread, it's just a great one, with a great discussion)

[foxyj75]

Tim, I noticed this the first time I got a DC1 to move. If I gave it my all for a short burst, it wouldn't move. But when I tried keeping on it for probably 6-8 sec., it moved. I experienced the same perceived loss of strength beforehand as well. Come to think of it, the same thing happened with my attempts on a sub 5'' edgin, and a piece of 5 3/4'' x 3/8'' CRS. Very cool post Tim!!

[pawel r]

Great post

Edited April 8, 2008 by pawel r

[gazza]

Finally people are starting to realise the benefits of isos

[luuc]

Hey,

I want to try some isometrics soon, but I've got some questions;

-what is better (or what should you do more often): isometrics or just real bending? (And you often should one do these isometrics?)

-Is all you need a bar for the kink, a bar at like 90 degrees, and a bar completely bended?

-I can't imagine being able to give as much power on an iso as I would do on a real bend... Because somewhere you always know that you are not able to bend it, and because you know that, you aren't really trying... But on a bend I always try to bend it, even if it's frozen for 15 minutes, I rest a minute and just give it another shot because I know it is possible..

Thanks!

(Sorry for bumping this thread, it's just a great one, with a great discussion)

Are these questions so dumb?

[CaptainCrush]

pushing on a bar that I know I cannot bends makes me wanna push much harder and for that much longer!

[gripmaniac]

Finally people are starting to realise the benefits of isos

Nobody can say you never told us Gazza