Given Up On Grippers

[Hazerboy]

I train grip to hurt people and deadlift more. Plain and simple. Wrestling and weightlifting are about all I do.

This is what lead me to this board, and got me into grip training. Training for a specific "feat" became a part of my goals - closing a #2 or 3, pinch gripping a certain block weight, etc. "Feat" training is a tricky thing, though - all across the board you'll meet athletes who excel at their sport and are awful at the feats. A football player who powercleans 175 but sprints a 4.5 40. A thrower who can launch a discuss 175 feet but benches no more then 200. Anyways, my point is sometimes I feel in sports we get lost training in "feats" that may or may not help you excel at your sport.

This is especially true for grip training. "Feats" are fun, but the athlete needs to know which ones will help him be a better athlete and which ones are just a cool party trick. Grippers are one of these feats. Grippers are great for increasing the all around tendon strength the the hands, but the problem lies in the hardest part of the gripper, the crush. This is also the least used range of motion in almost any sport across the board. Nearly everything in wrestling football, rock climbing, tennis, etc, is with an open hand. Its unsurprising when I give any one of these athletes a gripper they can always mash it to parallel, but can never make the close. Take my tennis friend kyle, for instance. He has the exact grip I train for; this kid can grab my wrist and I fall to my knees in pain (I don't exactly have a low tolerance for pain, either). I give him a HG 200, 250, and 300 and he can't close any of them. Less surprising is giving any one of these kids a block weight - they KILL at these things without any outside training. Anyways, my point is there are quicker, more practical and more efficient methods. Heck, John brookfield made a killer grip just with crap he found around his house. Of course, grip companies don't want you to know this--they always want to push a product. This isn't a new theme in the strength world. No one wants you to know that you can train a killer, functional body with no more then 5 dollars worth of sand and a chinup bar, vs. the new bowflex 5000.

Agree? Disagree?

Note: By no means am I claiming that crushing big grippers isn't a very difficult and impressive accomplishment. I just doubt their practicality :-p

Edited April 21, 2007 by Hazerboy

[Pryderi]

Anyways, my point is there are quicker, more practical and more efficient methods.

I wasn't aware this was something new... it has been said before, and before. Regardless, I agree more or less. Everything is goal specific, but remember Grip training and grip contests are becoming a sport in and of itself.

[Cunny]

In your case i think it may help injury proof your fingers a little no more no less

[mobsterone]

Right then. I'm off over a wrestling site to tell people the only thing I wrestle with is getting my socks off and there's no need for the training... or I could save myself the bother.

Edited April 21, 2007 by mobsterone

[smp76]

Hazerboy,

I think your assessment of grippers is a little off. You mention several "feats" that do not directly correlate to sport specific activities but I believe that is like comparing apples to oranges. A clean of 300lbs will not say that a guy has an awesome freight train double leg takedown, however if he has some technique and still maintains that powerful explosive foundational asset from his power cleaning then odds are his double will be better in the long run. Gripper strength is a mix of crush power and technique. If you are unfamiliar with closing grippers or never work that specific range of motion then I will assume it will always be difficult. Do not discount foundational training. One of the things you mention, tendon strengthening for instance is a good thing for preventing injury over the long haul and unfortunatly most of us are in this game of life for the long haul, so start thinking in those terms. If you place closing grippers in the category of "feats" then you might as well place bock weights, bending, bench press and everything else in the same "feats" category.

Respectfully submitted,

Sean

[diesel]

Right then. I'm off over a wrestling site to tell people the only thing I wrestle with is getting my socks off and there's no need for the training... or I could save myself the bother.

does this comment have anything to do with his post?

back to the point, Hazerboy, i think you make a good point in that, in your case, it is important to train for sports-specific strength rather than feat-specific. like you said, you are a wrestler first-and-foremost, and you wouldn't want to jeopardize your wrestling performance by doing worthless or irrelevant exercises. however, imo, regardless of the fact that in wrestling you never incorporate the 'crush' portion of grip, i still feel the practicality of grippers remains. grippers are meant to do one thing, and that is to increase the strength of your hands. regardless of how you want to disect that fact, the fact still remains: your hands will be stronger as a result of training with grippers. a simple statement, but a powerful one. if anything, i would be arguing against just doing grippers for your purpose (and recommending more open-hand exercises). again, imo, grippers have their place.

Edited April 21, 2007 by diesel

[mobsterone]

To answer the question yes. It seems as though he felt - obviously incorrectly - that grippers would help his wrestling. I'll get to that in a minute but you have touched apon the right direction.

It was this comment which annoyed me:

''Of course, grip companies don't want you to know this--they always want to push a product. This isn't a new theme in the strength world. No one wants you to know that you can train a killer, functional body with no more then 5 dollars worth of sand and a chinup bar, vs. the new bowflex 5000''

Let's start with the price of grippers - a little more than $5.00 I grant you but the gripper companies are hardly ripping anyone off. It is also annoying to come here, and other sites have similar posts and act as though someone was to blame - a gripper company, this site and so on.

The reality was his choice of exercise. You hinted at the same. Some years back I assisted Stan Pike of Intense Fitness at Seni. Seni is a martial arts and fighting sports expo. I wondered how we 'sell' what Stan produced and taught (Kettlebells and fitness was his core line but he also sold Robert Baraban equipment). Several times thoughout the day we were approached and one moment stuck in my mind so as to allow me to tell it as a story.

Two guys, both black belts in their fighting art approached Stan's stand and we got chatting. They were doing demos on a stage thoughout the day and asked how they could benefit from what Stan did etc. I said I could see they were both black belts and assumed, as they were doing a demo, that they were close in ability - maybe both secon dan etc? Anyway I said in a competition match the only thing which would allow one to beat another was, all other things being equal, if one had one area which was somehow stronger. As a grip guy, I explained, my advantage would be to be able to control the other guy if I could hold him. Be that by his Gi or wrist, ankle whatever. Much like wrestling I guess.

I then said that they could train their grip in many ways and pointed out the thick bars, grippers, block weights and so on. I also said that even without any of the equipment another idea they could use would be to mock up something the size and feel of what they might hold. So a padded wrist roller could mimic a human wrist, a folded strap attached to a cable could mimic a Gi or Gi's belt and so on. By attaching these to a cable, pulley and weight stack or loading pin they could find a way to tire out - thus work on endurance, or weight train, thus working their strength. Much like Hazerboy the wrestler could have done.

I have no problem with hazerboy realising his mistake but to then more or less slag off something he made the mistake in choosing as not worth a few dollars... it was his mistake. No one elses.

Most of the half decent grip guys here don't just use grippers and this site is called the Gripboard not the gripperboard. Those with any sense train for ALL ROUND grip. The work we do with grippers forms a part of that and I am certian that my all round grip and that of others will be exactly of the type Hazerboy wanted. All he had to do was ask. Those of the Diesel Crew have done lectures on this very idea, I've done seminars on the same and there are plenty here who could have helped.

But what did we get instead? Only today did the penny drop and realisation kick in. But lets talk about feats, getting lost and how grippers might not be worth a few dollars.

[dimmers]

"Grippers are great for increasing the all around tendon strength the the hands, but the problem lies in the hardest part of the gripper, the crush. This is also the least used range of motion in almost any sport across the board. Nearly everything in wrestling football, rock climbing, tennis, etc, is with an open hand."

I'm not sure i entirely agree with this statement (imo).

First off i play a lot of sports, golf being one of them (also squash, tennis, cricket, the list goes on) and i can safely say that since taking my grip training seriously - and becoming a member of this board - i've gained a lot of knowledge and a lot more strength in the areas that are specific to my sports.

For example, the last month of golf i've played has been some of the best golf of my short career (only been playing 3 years now) and i've increased my distance by say 15 - 20 yards off the tee (this is a lot in golf by the way). I put this down to a number of things but there's no denying that grippers have been a part of this. When you say most sports use an 'open hand' then how do you explain when in golf your grip pressure increases when you swing through the impact zone? If i swung my golf club with the same grip pressure throughout the entire swing then my golf club would end up flying out of my hands and into the woods

I believe this is the same for every sport that involves a bat, club or racket. At 'impact' you increase your grip pressure to accomodate this phase of the swing/hit/strike whatever you want to call it. If i played with an 'open hand' then i'd have to use some super glue to stick that club to my hands

Squash is another example where i have improved this year in a big way (although i owe some of that to my love of bending steel as well). I can say that my increase in power due to my all round grip/strength training has given me a stronger swing of the racket, and therefore my work with hand grippers has accomodated for this increase in power and speed, that enables me to hold on to that racket through impact.

I hope this post is making sense, and i'm not in anyway trying to say that you don't have a point or that you are wrong, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and i found your post very interesting, but i have to say i do disagree with some of what you say.

cheers

youdimmers

Edited April 21, 2007 by youdimmers

[MalachiMcMullen]

To answer the question...

Excellent post. Hazerboy, grippers are something specific that you train for and do not neccessarily carryover to much beyond other types of grip strength. Grip strength is extremely important in wrestling yes, but not gripper strength. The strength your looking for is explosive grip that can last for awhile. Grippers are mostly a maximum strength kind of excercise, the grip your looking for would come from sandbag training and thickbar work.

[mobsterone]

This was the question I replied to: does this comment have anything to do with his post?

[superfeemiman]

I'm sure if you only trained in one type of grip feat/exercise you wouldn't have a super grip. This is not only true for grippers, but for every feat IMO, though some may have more carry-over than others.

[Wes]

I actually would agree when it comes to grippers. I think paralell set gripper closing has very little carryover to functional hand strength. Likewise I think lifting on thickbars and blockweights have the greatest. It seems that people become to obsessed with the idea of getting the handles to touch while failing to realize that the strength required to get that "last little bit" is actually the least noticeable (and useful). I'm not discounting grippers by any means, they are an integral part of overall hand strength but they should not be the main focus of your training but rather supplemental, a mistake I made.

It is possible to develop a powerful grip with very limited equipment. A Rolling Thunder (or homemade equivalent as long as it revolves well) olympic bar, plates and a few different blocks of wood are all that are needed IMO. The RT develops open hand, thumb and wrist strength while the olympic bar can be used for one hand deadlifts (would carry over well to holding a golf club I think youdimmers-) finger rolls (develop crushing strength) double overhand holds, wrist curls and a myriad of other useful exercises. A few 2x4's nailed together or just any block of wood of the desirable size with a hook in it could be used for thumb strength as well as 2 45lb plates with a simple piece of pipe through the middle. These exercises coupled with a well thought out, progressive training program would give you a very strong grip. If you were feeling the "garage commando" it is very easy to make a 2'' and 2 and 3/8th'' bar cheaply and they would add a bit of variety.

Another neglected aspect of it is training your entire body as hard as your grip. I believe it is impossible to reach your full potential in grip strength without training your entire body. Once again another thing I mistakenly failed to do in the past. I've been lifting on a regular basis, eating and resting more since last December and have made better progress than ever before which I believe is a direct result of this. Richard Sorin has written about this before so mabye he will chime in. Just adding some simple compund exercises in your training regimen such as squats, deadlifts, bench and military presses, pullups and mabye some curls and reverse curls will go a long way towards developing strength.

Wes

Edited April 22, 2007 by Wes

[JoeGrip]

I train grip to hurt people and deadlift more. Plain and simple. Wrestling and weightlifting are about all I do.

This is what lead me to this board, and got me into grip training. Training for a specific "feat" became a part of my goals - closing a #2 or 3, pinch gripping a certain block weight, etc. "Feat" training is a tricky thing, though - all across the board you'll meet athletes who excel at their sport and are awful at the feats. A football player who powercleans 175 but sprints a 4.5 40. A thrower who can launch a discuss 175 feet but benches no more then 200. Anyways, my point is sometimes I feel in sports we get lost training in "feats" that may or may not help you excel at your sport.

This is especially true for grip training. "Feats" are fun, but the athlete needs to know which ones will help him be a better athlete and which ones are just a cool party trick. Grippers are one of these feats. Grippers are great for increasing the all around tendon strength the the hands, but the problem lies in the hardest part of the gripper, the crush. This is also the least used range of motion in almost any sport across the board. Nearly everything in wrestling football, rock climbing, tennis, etc, is with an open hand. Its unsurprising when I give any one of these athletes a gripper they can always mash it to parallel, but can never make the close. Take my tennis friend kyle, for instance. He has the exact grip I train for; this kid can grab my wrist and I fall to my knees in pain (I don't exactly have a low tolerance for pain, either). I give him a HG 200, 250, and 300 and he can't close any of them. Less surprising is giving any one of these kids a block weight - they KILL at these things without any outside training. Anyways, my point is there are quicker, more practical and more efficient methods. Heck, John brookfield made a killer grip just with crap he found around his house. Of course, grip companies don't want you to know this--they always want to push a product. This isn't a new theme in the strength world. No one wants you to know that you can train a killer, functional body with no more then 5 dollars worth of sand and a chinup bar, vs. the new bowflex 5000.

Agree? Disagree?

Note: By no means am I claiming that crushing big grippers isn't a very difficult and impressive accomplishment. I just doubt their practicality :-p

Let those who do not want any have memories of getting none

[The Mac]

I must admit that I did not find too much in the original post to disagree with.

[TelegraphKey]

I find every little tiny increment I get stronger at grippers, I get at least about as tinily incrementally stronger (or moreso) on everything else. Maybe that's just mental but grippers, as specific as they are, still require so much focus (for me) that the intensity seems to carry over to practically everything else (course, that means one has to do other stuff besides just grippers, obviously).

[twig]

Grip training is like all other aspects of weight training, if you enjoy it, do it.

[426]

Grip training is like all other aspects of weight training, if you enjoy it, do it.

Yep. It (grippers) has carryover in stuff like climbing just due to great pump. I work reps more than "max"-as well as a plyo exercise someone from GB rec'd. YMMV, sport dependent.

[John Beatty]

Worthy posts all around, but as a former defensive lineman, the crush is plenty important if you're taking down a running back & all you get a hold of is a handful of jersey.

And having a good crush won't hurt you on a heavy single rep deadlift. Two 1/2" gripper handles = one 1" barbell.

Edited April 22, 2007 by John Beatty

[ObsceneJester]

I train grip to hurt people and deadlift more. Plain and simple. Wrestling and weightlifting are about all I do.

I've felt a noticeable difference when I dead lifted for a max DO. Again that's just me.

A football player who can't powercleans 175 but sprints a 4.5 40. A thrower who can launch a discuss 175 feet but benches no more then 200. Anyways, my point is sometimes I feel in sports we get lost training in "feats" that may or may not help you excel at your sport.

I'm assuming you forgot the word can't and if you didn't dont' mind the next part, I don't know this is just nit picking, but I have yet to see a football player (or one that can run a 4.0-4.5) that can't powerclean 175. Heck I haven't lifted weights in close to 6 months and I know I can go outside right now and do it. Grip training is a sport of it's own. The feats of 'grip' training have a ton of carry over to other sports. Example? RT or thickbar and holding onto someone such as in wrestling or BJJ. I think Joe Kinney puts it perfect when he said in "Captains of Crush; What are they and how to close them" that having a good bench press and a weak grip is like having a 4x4 truck that can't get traction.. and I'm very sure that man or atleast when he was at his peak his 'feats' to carry well over into sports..

Also to your point about feats not excelling at your sport.. that's why it is a 'feat'. If you want to have a good grip for wrestling work on thickbar and sandbag training. I don't bend metal so that I can work on my cardio. You have to pick things that will help the sport you want to do.

I don't know many people on this board that there main purpose to close a #3 is to overhead press 405. People want to either be a mash monster, or a CoC or w/e. It is your responsibility to ask questions and search for information that will help you with your specific sport.

Now I'm not saying that CoC grippers or any for that matter are a necessity, but if your willingly to buy these grippers you also need to look up how they can help you and your goals

Good luck

[climber511]

It may be today, tomorrow, or a decade from now but someday any weakness you have will be taken advantage of by someone. Train the "most bang for YOUR buck" exercises first and foremost, work the skills YOU need constantly, but don't neglect anything over the long term - if will come back to haunt you someday. Grippers are a tool like many others and may not be the best choice for you and what you want today - but don't write them off as completely worthless either. Closing big grippers is a skill along with a strength but nobody without a strong grip has enough skill alone to close much of a gripper - when it's all done - the best wrestler will be the one with the fewest weaknesses.

[Rick Browne]

Grippers as a training tool, will give both frustration and gratification, all in the same little package.........

[AP]

I'd like to say a bit about the "feats" comments in the original post. For the past few years I have tried to scatter in a few feats to my training, many of which I have achieved. I think a feat really has a way of focusing your attentions and bringing about new levels of motivation, especially if you set a time limit to achieve it. Feats are fun, you can impress other people and you impress yourself with your own dedication and intensity to reach the goal. Plus you might discover how your feat carries over to other stuff, in setting the goal of bending an 80d I've found the secret to cementing my DO style and I went from having a hard time bending a red to crushing down hexabastard and soon to be shiny bastards. So you never know. You might find the grippers you've bought are also good for working the last two fingers, or the pinch, or building your pain tolerance, or whatever.

Edited April 22, 2007 by AP

[superfeemiman]

I doubt people who, for example, go past the #3 point and train relentlessly to get to the #4 are doing it to help their sport or whatever. I think this is obvious. A football player wouldn't train relentlessly to get a 650 pound bench press to be better in his sport.

[Scott Styles]

I look at a max gripper closes as a demonstration of how my overall training is going, opposed to as a goal in itself. Chasing big grippers as a goal makes my knuckles hurt.

Because most people specialize on the grippers first, we get a lot of guys that think they've gotten more value out of thick bar, block weight, and wrist work. I think it's more often a case of bringing up the weak points after all that gripper specialization, as Climber511 suggested.

Also, let's face it, once the novelty has worn off, grippers are boooooring. I'd rather destroy something or move a heavy weight around.

[makey98]

I look at a max gripper closes as a demonstration of how my overall training is going, opposed to as a goal in itself....

I really like all your posts Scott. Everything you say seems to have a lot of common sense behind it. Always informative, helpful, and original.