bunchofbananas Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I know this topic has beendone alot already but i suppose its still interesting. Anyhoo i was thinking about whether cetain grippers will be possible in the future, like the BB pro or even the WT. Now i'm not going to say some crap like: when i first touched the number 2 i thought i would be impossible but now its easy etc... What i tried to do was make a comparison. Now there are people here who have worked at grip strength for along time and to an extremely high level realtive to the rest of the human race. Now these are the kinda people that will have the best idea on what is possible as they no how hard it is for them to continue making gains. So i was trying to think of another example whereby something has been achieved that by previous standards would actually seem IMPOSSIBLE. I thought of sledge levering. My example was this. The top guys in the world at sledge levering who've been doing it for a long time and dedicated their focus to it can lever around the 25lb mark (at the most) Now, there's slim farman who i've herad could lever something like 50+ pounds?!?!!?! Now that is so far above the rest of the best in the world that it made me think hmmm its about the same factor as the WT os to the number 4 (or thereabouts for arguments sake) I am just posting this to give some people a new angle to think about it (most of you may have already considered this specific example) What are people idea on why this great difference in wrist strength was apparent? maybe because fewer people have focused on it for a shorter time than crushing grippers??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dude Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I think the answer right now is kinda hard to say. Some of the older guys that have been around for awhile I think would have the best opinion as they've seen the sport of grip evolve and the direction its taken. As the world of grip/bending/etc... grows more and more each year the median of strength begins to level off, seemingly at a higher level each year IMO. However Mikael noted in a thread that it seemed that the Top X leaders in 2hp and vbar seemed to be leveling off with smaller and smaller gains than years previous, so maybe in some areas we are starting to see the upper limits in strength. The world of grip is still a small small world in comparison to other things with a pool of people measured in the thousands, so I'd say any answer right now would be superficial at best. Who knows, maybe in 15-20 years closing a #4 won't be as extraordinary a feat as it is today. Quote Name:Ron 2006 Goals: Grand Bastard MM3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunchofbananas Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share Posted July 10, 2006 I agree about the leveling off thing aswell. It was strange to me that people training in totally different ways and in totally different places (given that they are extremely advanced in that particular lift) can come together in a competition and have extremely similar lifting figures. It must mean it is nearing a human limitation or 'levelling off point', as the only constant in the equation is they're all humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunchofbananas Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) I'm also a firm believer in some physical advancement over the years being psychological. I mean if i didn't know about the gripboard or grippers or CoC, and someone told me to develop the strongest possible grip i could in 2 years, and i had no idea of any lifting figures of other people then i think i'd come out of the two years thinking i'd got one of the strongest grips in the world. However once removed form this isolation and being handed some CoC's and being made aware of the strength levels of others, i would soon realize i had a comparatively weak grip. I also think the ways in which we train are getting better. I doubt that, without grippers, people could develop closed fist crushing strength of this magnitude that we have today. Edited July 10, 2006 by bunchofbananas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdoire Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 As each athlete hits their "genetic" limits...it is harder and harder to continue to make progres...albeit not impossible. You will see some come this board and rocket their way to the 3 and even maybe the Elite, then their wall is hit and they have to work very hard to get any further, especially in comparison to the relative ease that existed prior to their genetic ceiling being reached. Quote Paul Doire TEAR PHONE BOOKS 1/5/2005 GM1 2/14/2005 HG300 and 400 TNS 2/21/2005 MMO 3/11/05 RB300N Video Close 11/1/05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teemu I Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 (edited) As each athlete hits their "genetic" limits...it is harder and harder to continue to make progres...albeit not impossible.You will see some come this board and rocket their way to the 3 and even maybe the Elite, then their wall is hit and they have to work very hard to get any further, especially in comparison to the relative ease that existed prior to their genetic ceiling being reached. I agree mostly, but I wouldn't call the fact that progress slows down an actual genetic ceiling. As you said, many people are able to close #3 very quickly, so that just simply can't be nowhere near human potential. If it would be, it would take at least about ten years of extremely hard work for most people to get even close. If you still are able to make progress you haven't reached that ceiling. Unfortunately, I can't provide an accurate explanation how to define genetic limits, but I do know for sure that eventually all the present records, at least in popular enough events, will be broken, as strength training becomes more and more scientific over the years. That applies especially to grip, at present there are no grip coaches (name another sport without coaches), not so much specific research going on on the field, not much money you can make by beeing succesful at competitions, most of the methods all of us on this board use are based on practical experience and simple trial and error of a few pioneers (I'm not saying it's bad, but it could be even better with the help from science). Simply put this whole grip thing is still quite small and young as a sport. To say something about why it becomes so hard for people to make progress after #3 and why some can't do any better, I think it's mostly due to the fact that many people don't train the rest of their body as hard as they train their grip. It's a fact that as you get stronger all around, you will be able to make better progress with your grip as well. It's also useful to pack some muscle mass with big weights, that means you are pushing your limits further and building up your potential to gain strength. I'd say get strong first, when your progress comes to halt, pack some muscle, then realize the strength potential of your bigger muscles.. Somebody will close grippers like BB Pro or World Class eventually, WT IMO is beyond human potential. Edited July 11, 2006 by Teemu I Quote Teemu Ilvesniemi, Finland My Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdoire Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 (edited) I also agree with some of your logic, but if it was all about getting bigger muscles than all the powerlifters and strongmen would be closing the 3+ grippers and they are not...some yes..not all however, so that alone is not the answer either. I do believe however as more and more peole are exposed to grip and the training methods improve (as you said) that the BB Pro and stronger grippers will be closed...than the debate will continue about how it was set to close....lol Edited July 11, 2006 by pdoire Quote Paul Doire TEAR PHONE BOOKS 1/5/2005 GM1 2/14/2005 HG300 and 400 TNS 2/21/2005 MMO 3/11/05 RB300N Video Close 11/1/05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teemu I Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 (edited) I also agree with some of your logic, but if it was all about getting bigger muscles than all the powerlifters and strongmen would be closing the 3+ grippers and they are not...some yes..not all however, so that alone is not the answer either.I do believe however as more and more peole are exposed to grip and the training methods improve (as you said) that the BB Pro and stronger grippers will be closed...than the debate will continue about how it was set to close....lol I didn't mean, that it is all about getting bigger muscles, I mean that once you have reached a plateau without packing muscle mass, then the additional muscle mass will help to gain strength. Due to various neurological reasons, beeing strong over all also helps with grip training, that's not just my logic, but a scientific fact. That example about powerlifters and and strongmen is too simplified, what I'm saying is they have a greater potential to close big grippers, if they put so much time and effort to their grip training as many grip enthusiasts on this board do , they would do well. And the other way around: people training solely their grip would find themselves improving faster if they trained rest of their body as intensely and with that amount of hard work. Edited July 11, 2006 by Teemu I Quote Teemu Ilvesniemi, Finland My Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybersnott Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I once calculated, based on the poundages that Joe Kinney was using on the Secret Weapon, what gripper beyond the #4 could Joe close if they (IronMind) built it. Based on the strength results of the grippers, and all things being equal -- it was my conclusion that Joe could close the #9 gripper! Yes, the #9 gripper!!! And if you've ever seen that video, you'll know how Joe completely dominated that #4 gripper. Quote "I have always been strong. I can only imagine what it is like to be weak" - Arthur Saxon "Success cannot be guaranteed. There are no safe battles" - Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilGrip Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I once calculated, based on the poundages that Joe Kinney was using on the Secret Weapon, what gripper beyond the #4 could Joe close if they (IronMind) built it.Based on the strength results of the grippers, and all things being equal -- it was my conclusion that Joe could close the #9 gripper! Yes, the #9 gripper!!! And if you've ever seen that video, you'll know how Joe completely dominated that #4 gripper. ... my goodness your math is bad. Quote -Ecclesiastes 9:10- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCX1Dy0LfYyIAM6IDqIMKbdg/videos https://www.youtube.com/user/MilGrip/videos?flow=grid&view=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Someone will close a standard BB Pro in the future. It is my belief that most of us are no where close to our potential when it comes to crush strength. If a gripper harder than the #4 had been the standard when Kinney was training, I have no doubt that he would have closed it and I certainly think the Pro is possible. BTW does anyone know if Nathan Holle is still training? I remember someone from this board witnessing him going for a double or triple on the #4 about a year after he certed. He always seemed to have a tremendous natural ability in crush strength. Quote 2010: RED nail cert Huge Shiny BIEW Close 170# gripper 15# sledge lever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Now, there's slim farman who i've herad could lever something like 50+ pounds?!?!!?! Oh, and it wasn't 50 pounds, it was closer to 31 I believe. Quote 2010: RED nail cert Huge Shiny BIEW Close 170# gripper 15# sledge lever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teemu I Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 (edited) I once calculated, based on the poundages that Joe Kinney was using on the Secret Weapon, what gripper beyond the #4 could Joe close if they (IronMind) built it.Based on the strength results of the grippers, and all things being equal -- it was my conclusion that Joe could close the #9 gripper! Yes, the #9 gripper!!! And if you've ever seen that video, you'll know how Joe completely dominated that #4 gripper. Now that's interesting! I assume you base that calculation on your personal experiments with Secret Weapon-type of grip machine? Can you tell more about your experiment and calculations? No offence but that #9 sounds like you might have gone wrong somewhere. I think that with negatives there isn't exactly a direct carryover. I also think that negatives work differently for different people. So these two things combined it might be hard to do any relevant calculations. Edited July 12, 2006 by Teemu I Quote Teemu Ilvesniemi, Finland My Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVillani1985 Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I think the absolute limit of a gripper that can be fully closed with the handles clicking is the RB WT. I doubt someone will ever come along to close that freakishly tough gripper, but I do think there is a genetic potential in about one or two humans a generation to train and train and train to the point where the RB WT is closed, but since not too many know about grip training, it's pretty safe to say that the two handles of the RB WT gripper will never touch each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunchofbananas Posted July 12, 2006 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 I once calculated, based on the poundages that Joe Kinney was using on the Secret Weapon, what gripper beyond the #4 could Joe close if they (IronMind) built it.Based on the strength results of the grippers, and all things being equal -- it was my conclusion that Joe could close the #9 gripper! Yes, the #9 gripper!!! And if you've ever seen that video, you'll know how Joe completely dominated that #4 gripper. interesting stuff, i would also be interested in how you calculated this and what you had as your increments between each gripper. By number 9 do you mean over TWICE the strength of the number 4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Reagan Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Slim's bigger numbers--50-60 lbs--were with two hands with two hammers that were attached. Still extreme, though. Justin Reagan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunchofbananas Posted July 13, 2006 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 Slim's bigger numbers--50-60 lbs--were with two hands with two hammers that were attached. Still extreme, though.Justin Reagan Was that 50-60 lbs per hammer or between the two. Thanks for the explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TelegraphKey Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) 31.25 lbs per hand. But that was done in extra difficult fashion, so IMO even the 20-25 lbs. done today by the strongest guys is even farther away from 31 lbs. than just 6 lbs or about 80%. There clearly are ranges of limits in all physical activities, or else it would be possible to run a 1-mile race in 0.00 seconds. The 1-mile race is perhaps the most prestigious event in sports, or take the 100-meter dash, and while both have progressed pretty well, the record times for the 1-mile are still closer to 4 minutes than to 3 minutes (about 3:43) even though Roger Bannister broke 4 minutes about 50 years ago. And the 100-meters is still 9.76 seconds, and anyone who breaks it by 5-hundredths of a second is considered a FREAK. (BTW, Michael Johnson ran his world-record 200 meters in the 1996 Olympics in 19.32 seconds, with his second 100 meters in 9.20 seconds!!!!!!! That, IMO, is one of the very greatest athletic feats of all time.) Look at the bench press. Pat Casey was credited with being the first human being to bench press 600 lbs, back in the 1960's, raw, with no supportive shirts. Today, the world record for a raw bench press is something like 755 lbs, by one of those monster 1000-lb benchers in quadruple-ply shirsts. The fact that the world record bench press, despite its enormous worldwide popularity, has only gone up by about 25% in 40-50 years, shows you that human feats have some set of limits. IMO grippers will show the same sorts of limits. The fact that some people have already closed 4's probably means that if closing IM CoC grippers ever became as popular as the 1-mile race, 100-meter dash, or bench pressing, then someone, someday, might close a gripper about 10-25% harder than a CoC #4. IMO Edited July 13, 2006 by TelegraphKey Quote Jim Starr 2008 no injury Rep 2.5 bend Blue Formulator Ext 10x20/Flex 10x60 strict OH Lever 12 lb Lever wrist curl 10 lb 1H Plate Wrist Curl-metal:(R 5*33/L 3*33)-plastic:(R 1*35) Hex Block >40 Blob50? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunchofbananas Posted July 13, 2006 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) IMO grippers will show the same sorts of limits. The fact that some people have already closed 4's probably means that if closing IM CoC grippers ever became as popular as the 1-mile race, 100-meter dash, or bench pressing, then someone, someday, might close a gripper about 10-25% harder than a CoC #4. IMO Good points. But i think the above text MIGHT not be as true of grippers because it seems people who dabble in grip training become extremely hooked and take it to a high level indeed. The stages of gripper progression i think affect our achievements so far, in two ways: 1. it makes it harder to achieve the closing of the next gripper up because there are large differences in resistance (as opposed to sliding on another 5 lbs in the squat) 2. i think it might help in terms of people WILL eventually get to a higher level than otherwise due to the grippers being like milestones and getting close isn't good enough, you have to actually close them. Edited July 13, 2006 by bunchofbananas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 I once calculated, based on the poundages that Joe Kinney was using on the Secret Weapon, what gripper beyond the #4 could Joe close if they (IronMind) built it.Based on the strength results of the grippers, and all things being equal -- it was my conclusion that Joe could close the #9 gripper! Yes, the #9 gripper!!! And if you've ever seen that video, you'll know how Joe completely dominated that #4 gripper. Well the smallest percentage increase between two numbered grippers is between the 3 and 4 at 30%. So assuming a 30% increase for each gripper beyond the 4, here are your poundages (rounded): #5 475lbs #6 617lbs #7 802lbs #8 1042lbs #9 1355lbs or 271% harder than the #4. Was this your logic? I have no doubt that people will continue to get stronger. It's motivating to think about who will come along and the barriers they will crush! My daughter has HUGE hands, at least for now. I'm sure she'll love that when she gets older. Hmmm, maybe the first woman to close the #4..? She's only 6 weeks old, so I'll give her some time to train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelby Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 31.25 lbs per hand.But that was done in extra difficult fashion, so IMO even the 20-25 lbs. done today by the strongest guys is even farther away from 31 lbs. than just 6 lbs or about 80%. There clearly are ranges of limits in all physical activities, or else it would be possible to run a 1-mile race in 0.00 seconds. The 1-mile race is perhaps the most prestigious event in sports, or take the 100-meter dash, and while both have progressed pretty well, the record times for the 1-mile are still closer to 4 minutes than to 3 minutes (about 3:43) even though Roger Bannister broke 4 minutes about 50 years ago. And the 100-meters is still 9.76 seconds, and anyone who breaks it by 5-hundredths of a second is considered a FREAK. (BTW, Michael Johnson ran his world-record 200 meters in the 1996 Olympics in 19.32 seconds, with his second 100 meters in 9.20 seconds!!!!!!! That, IMO, is one of the very greatest athletic feats of all time.) Look at the bench press. Pat Casey was credited with being the first human being to bench press 600 lbs, back in the 1960's, raw, with no supportive shirts. Today, the world record for a raw bench press is something like 755 lbs, by one of those monster 1000-lb benchers in quadruple-ply shirsts. The fact that the world record bench press, despite its enormous worldwide popularity, has only gone up by about 25% in 40-50 years, shows you that human feats have some set of limits. IMO grippers will show the same sorts of limits. The fact that some people have already closed 4's probably means that if closing IM CoC grippers ever became as popular as the 1-mile race, 100-meter dash, or bench pressing, then someone, someday, might close a gripper about 10-25% harder than a CoC #4. IMO dont forget the steroid use of todays powerlifters. casey probably did it naturally. and if he was on roids, it was only couple millilteres a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetAGrip87 Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 (edited) Well the smallest percentage increase between two numbered grippers is between the 3 and 4 at 30%. So assuming a 30% increase for each gripper beyond the 4, here are your poundages (rounded):#5 475lbs #6 617lbs #7 802lbs #8 1042lbs #9 1355lbs or 271% harder than the #4. Was this your logic? I have no doubt that people will continue to get stronger. It's motivating to think about who will come along and the barriers they will crush! Between each Ironmind COC gripper the jump is less than 90 pounds. Trainer to #1 is 40lbs. #1 to #2 is 55lbs. #2 to #3 is 85lbs. and the #3 to the #4 is the jump in strength as the #2 to the #3 85lbs. With your calculations your jumps in strength are much higher than any jump with the actual Gripper. Your first jump is 110lbs. then 142, 185, 240, 313!!! I would think if Ironmind made stronger grippers than the #4 that they would keep the jump in strength at 85lbs. or even lower because its harder to gain strength at such a high level. If they made more grippers and kept it the same jump then they would be #5 - 450lbs. #6 - 535lbs. #7 - 620lbs. #8 - 705lbs. #9 - 790lbs. Edited July 17, 2006 by GetAGrip87 Quote Scott Harris Jr. 5'6" 150lbs. My Training Has Completely Switched Gears! 2012 Goals: ... Get Back to 154's 143's for Nationals??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viper Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 im sure that every current best grip feat will be beaten in the future i dont know a thing about limits Quote http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=savvy22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybersnott Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 (edited) Does anyone know exactly what poundages that Kinney used on the Secret Weapon? I'm not talking about ratio weight, but just actual weight. I could give you the number I think it is, but someone might just accuse me of using bad math! Edited July 18, 2006 by Sybersnott Quote "I have always been strong. I can only imagine what it is like to be weak" - Arthur Saxon "Success cannot be guaranteed. There are no safe battles" - Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teemu I Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Does anyone know exactly what poundages that Kinney used on the Secret Weapon?I'm not talking about ratio weight, but just actual weight. I could give you the number I think it is, but someone might just accuse me of using bad math! No, I wouldn't accuse you. Quote Teemu Ilvesniemi, Finland My Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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