Whatever happened to the IGC?

[OldGuy]

Is anything happened with IGC? It seems to have been forgotten.

[Tom Black]

I've been really crushed lately with a lot of things, but have continued to work on the IGC homepage, which is actually very extensive but still on my hard disk.  Some of the things are still controversial (like the grippers) and I am studying and taking notes on everyone's observations regarding how their COC grippers compare to PDA's.   The grippers were the IGC initial charter, but because of the controversy, and my feeling that all grip feats should be considered by the IGC, I have expanded what I think the IGC should govern into pinching, levering, etc.  This, of course, makes the site, as well as the work, much broader than the grippers alone.

On the issue of the grippers, I note that everyone is comparing the SOS with the COC, e.g., ordering a SOS gripper that is too hard/too weak compared to their experiences with the COC (#1, #2, #3).  I think that the comparison may be unfair, since it is widely known (and admitted by Ironmind) that the COC vary, so it is not a surprise that people do not know what SOS gripper to buy.  On the other hand, the SOS grippers also seem to have some variance.  This has surprised me, and I am still grappling as to why they vary.  I trust the testing machine, but it seems the hand is a complex mechanism.  I think that the recent discussions of the sweep close to parallel, and the recent adoption of this reading my PDA may be the reason, but I still can't draw a conclusion.  I have bought one SOS gripper myself (a 361 IP) and it is exactly the strength I thought it would be.  Maybe I'm lucky in my purchase, but I have owned at least four different #2 grippers, and four #3's.  I have also been to York barbell where they have them right on display and have identified "easy" ones and "hard" ones.  My point is that I was not surprised by my 361 because I know what I own and I know about where they stand.  If I were to own only one #2 gripper, and did not own a harder Master gripper, I could not have properly identified what PDA to buy.

I'd like to apologize for not keeping everyone informed, but if you knew everything that was going on in my life currently you would understand my slow progress.  I could put up what I have, but I'm not one to put up half a job.  If everyone really wants that I probably could have it up within two weeks.

[Sybersnott]

Thank you, Tom.  

I agree with you.  Someone once asked, "Is anyone still getting their grippers calibrated?".  I replied that I just did - because I wanted to know where I stood (in terms of grip strength), with everyone else.  YES IT DOES MATTER.  The grippers VARY greatly, and you CANNOT equate one guy who has closed a gripper calibrated at 300 to another guy who has closed a gripper calibrated at over 400!  ???

I'll probably take some heat on that last comment.... but so what?  I have my fair share of grippers and I know the difference.  

Take your time on the IGC..... it will be well worth it in the end.  And we are all supporting you, Tom....  

[terminator]

Snott,

Hypothetical question:

3 grippers, all rated 361, with parallel closing torques of 150, 200, 250 respectively.  What do you have here, an easy 361, a medium 361, and a hard 361 or three equal grippers?  Three separate guys close them, are they equal from a grip strength perspective?

Just curious what your thoughts on that are.  Still think you know exactly where you are?  No sarcasm intended, just food for thought.

[Sybersnott]

Is this a "trick question"?  :p

Answer:  they are ALL the same REGARDLESS of parallel torque - since all the closing torques of the three grippers are all equal.  You just have three different grippers in terms of parallel torque.  But it's NOT parallel that we are concerned with; only closing torque on the grippers.

(Now someone is going to tell me that I'M WRONG - this is why we need the IGC).

[Guest StrongerthanArne]

Open-minded individuals have discovered that ip closing numbers are unreliable as indicators of closing difficulty. This is a problem that it might be difficult for IGC to do anything about. Several of us were planning to include calibrated SOS grippers in grip competitions, in which the one who closed the gripper with the highest ip number would win that event. Later, testing revealed serious flaws with the calibration as a reliable guidance for closing difficulty. So we are back to square one, where the hand rules supreme as testing machine. The PDA have tried hard to improve grippers and they deserve all credit for this, but the whole calibration process, which was initiated by bad mouthing IM, is, in summory, a fiasco.

[terminator]

Snott, sorry to burst your bubble but they are not the same.  Why do cars and trucks have gear boxes?  Do you start out in fifth gear with a car?  You should be able to start out in any gear, right?  After all you have the same vehicle weight and the same horsepower, it shouldn't matter right?  

It's not just the end that matters, it's how you get there.  Even if the closing torques are the same, the spring with the easier progression will be much easier to close.  

I used to own a Mustang hot rod car.  At various times I changed the front and rear springs.  I had a progressive set of springs which peaked at 600 lb/in, and a set rated at 600 lb/in throughout the entire travel.  Guess what, the progressive springs bottomed out all the time, the other ones never even got close to bottoming.  The length was identical.  Shouldn't matter if the peak of one equals the peak of the other you say, I say it definitely does.

[Bob Lipinski]

Here is a similar example that I have more experience with.

I often use a setup where I attach rubber bands to the bar when I bench press. I can set it up so that I have 300 total weight at the top and 220 at the bottom. Someone who can bench press 280 pounds would most likely do this easily.

However, put 300 pounds bar weight on their (300 at the top, 300 at the bottom) and that same person would fail miserably.

[Bill Piche]

Terminator is right. There are those of us who were involved up front in the testing who determined there was a significant issue with spring dynamics variation. It makes a HUGE difference.  And, we proved it by testing grippers of various IP's. The parallel measurement was an attempt to better quantify the grippers. So far, not enough data has been collected from measured grippers. Then again if you have a 400 with a 200 mid-pt, is a 390 with a 250 mid-pt harder? Maybe. Again, much more data is needed for any conclusions using the second measurement.  It can probably compare with identical ones though as term shows in his example.

400 with a 250 mid and 400 with a 180 mid.  The first will probably be harder.

[Tom Black]

Work is equal to Force x Distance.  The total amount of work needed to close a gripper with lower parallel readings, but identical full close reading therefore must be lower because the work required to get the gripper to parallel is less.  I believe that this is what people are experiencing when the find a gripper to be easier than expected.  Perhaps what is needed is a way of calculating total work in closing a gripper.    Unfortunately, I think what may be needed is to know the total force from initial movement to full closure, maybe measuring every 1/16-inch of handle movement. This may be very difficult for PDA to do.  Worse yet, the final resulting numbers may not be something the average person could relate to (I believe a very high pounds per inch number).  

Wannagrip, the 400 with a 250 mid. would probably be harder, but all the points in between would matter as well.

[OldGuy]

Gripper characterisics, have turned out to be far more complex than anyone might have imagined. It seems to me that people should accept the variations of Ironmind's #3 and all grippers, and certify with the #3 they happen to own. If certification is what they seek. The IGC might be better suited to other grip feats, pinch thickbar and so on, and leave the grippers to Ironmind. Those on here who like to compete could be rated over a broad range of grip challenges not just on grippers.

[BarBender]

Given a force curve for a spring we can calculate work by integrating over the interval of displacement. Currently, PDA provides information at parallel and at closure. Work can then be approximated by using the trapezoid rule.

[Guest woody36]

It's hard enough trying to get certified on the 3, without

having to swing from a trapezoid

[Sybersnott]

So what EVERYONE is saying is that you should throw the baby out with the bath water (when it comes to the grippers).  

I didn't invent the grippers, so why is everybody breaking my balls about them?  Maybe we should follow Strossen's advice.... enjoy them as they are, and "everything is gonna be alright".  Bull!!!  

I don't know all the answers, nor do I pretend to (contrary to what people think of me).  So what do we do now?  Throw away all the data PDA has done about the grippers?  Call all of what PDA has done, "utter nonsense"??

I try to explain my knowledge of what I know about IronMind (from a VERY reliable source, I might add), and the next thing you know Heath is jumping on my back telling me that I don't know squat about what I'm talking about!  I try to stay in the loop, knowing what I DO know - and NOT try to get into any trouble by doing so.  Looks like I've already attracted unwanted attention from someone who doesn't like what I have to say.  Inside knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

The IGC will decide on what's what when using the grippers in a competition.  And we are still beating a dead horse.