Mikael Siversson Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) I think you should have that as a recommendation rather than a rule because I can almost guarantee that one day a new organiser will make a mistake and let someone beat a WR by less than that. You would then end up with a very odd situation. Edited February 9, 2012 by Mikael Siversson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 If the promoter allows that to happen it will be on them. This information is all going to be readily available to the masses. We've already begun dispursing it on the major grip sport forum, on david's site, and it will be available at gripsport.org. There will be no viable excuse for not knowing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 I understand but what will you do if it happens? Will you disqualify the lift? I guess that would be the only option as you can't have a situation where a valid lift is higher than the WR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I understand but what will you do if it happens? Will you disqualify the lift? I guess that would be the only option as you can't have a situation where a valid lift is higher than the WR. I don't see it as a problem. You very well could have a legitimate lift be greater than the world record. The lift simply wasn't performed according to world record standards, and therefore, though it would count towards the total points in the contest in question, it would not be a world record. This happens in powerlifting from time to time. One common reason being when a lift is not judged by international judges. I remember when there were quite a few American records greater than the official world records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 I assume the Gripmas results are either in the 105k class or in the 120k+ class as there was no point calibration at the current weightclass limits (only one between the 93k and 105k class)? 2. Inclusion of Existing Contest Results For instance, the Gripmas results will be logged in since their weight requirements met the standards we are using now. If other promoters kept their records and met the standards we are looking for, they can be sent in and added. Jedd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 That's good news as I started to wonder if anyone other than myself was going to step up and maintain top50 lists. Moreover, the Gripboard software is driving me insane. I will remove lists as they appear on this new website and keep those that he does not include. Two other things that we discussed and voted on recently. 1. Website Records Lists Aaron Corcorran is awesome with website coding and is developing standings/lists for some of the events, sort of like top 50 lists for the contested lifts. So that is going to be a great thing for the sport. Competitors will be able to go to a site and see what the best numbers are and what to shoot for, etc. This is the most modern forum software out there. It's just a matter of understanding what the requirements are first for how you want to post the info (format, etc.). It even has a special Word Paste function. Email me at editor@cyberpump.com for how you would want to edit the content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I understand but what will you do if it happens? Will you disqualify the lift? I guess that would be the only option as you can't have a situation where a valid lift is higher than the WR. I would agree with Jedd in that it's the promoter's responsibility to know the rules but I'm not a fan of the rule itself. It sets the stage for paper champions and more importantly how will they rank on the top 50 list. Are we really going to put them at #2 with a higher lift? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I understand but what will you do if it happens? Will you disqualify the lift? I guess that would be the only option as you can't have a situation where a valid lift is higher than the WR. I would agree with Jedd in that it's the promoter's responsibility to know the rules but I'm not a fan of the rule itself. It sets the stage for paper champions and more importantly how will they rank on the top 50 list. Are we really going to put them at #2 with a higher lift? I don't see how this could happen by accident though. You would have to knowingly plan your lift during the contest to land exactly inside or outside the 0.5# requirement. People know when they are a WR contender. You would be foolish to purposefully chose a weight that missed beating a prior WR by less than 0.5#. It's probably a matter of choosing a different 5# weight from the pile if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 Never underestimate stupidity, the unexpected usually happens sooner or later. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_Arildsson Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I understand but what will you do if it happens? Will you disqualify the lift? I guess that would be the only option as you can't have a situation where a valid lift is higher than the WR. I would agree with Jedd in that it's the promoter's responsibility to know the rules but I'm not a fan of the rule itself. It sets the stage for paper champions and more importantly how will they rank on the top 50 list. Are we really going to put them at #2 with a higher lift? You must have two different lists, one for WR only, and another for ranking. I don't see a problem with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I understand but what will you do if it happens? Will you disqualify the lift? I guess that would be the only option as you can't have a situation where a valid lift is higher than the WR. I would agree with Jedd in that it's the promoter's responsibility to know the rules but I'm not a fan of the rule itself. It sets the stage for paper champions and more importantly how will they rank on the top 50 list. Are we really going to put them at #2 with a higher lift? You must have two different lists, one for WR only, and another for ranking. I don't see a problem with that. I do because it means that if you're the WR holder, you're not necessarily the best in the world so your WR doesn't have the same meaning. This plagues AW as well. You have WAF champs who are not ranked #1 in their weight classes because certain people don't show up to Worlds so then you get into the questions of does the World Champion title mean your the best in the world or is it just a title and can you leapfrog somebody in rankings that you've never beat? I hope the Grip Collective strongly considers what the ramifications are of keeping two lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_Arildsson Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I understand but what will you do if it happens? Will you disqualify the lift? I guess that would be the only option as you can't have a situation where a valid lift is higher than the WR. I would agree with Jedd in that it's the promoter's responsibility to know the rules but I'm not a fan of the rule itself. It sets the stage for paper champions and more importantly how will they rank on the top 50 list. Are we really going to put them at #2 with a higher lift? You must have two different lists, one for WR only, and another for ranking. I don't see a problem with that. I do because it means that if you're the WR holder, you're not necessarily the best in the world so your WR doesn't have the same meaning. This plagues AW as well. You have WAF champs who are not ranked #1 in their weight classes because certain people don't show up to Worlds so then you get into the questions of does the World Champion title mean your the best in the world or is it just a title and can you leapfrog somebody in rankings that you've never beat? I hope the Grip Collective strongly considers what the ramifications are of keeping two lists. If a successfull WR is made and it matches all the requirements, it will be the world record. Which we of course agree on. If a successfull lift is done, and this lift is done with more weight then the current WR, but doesn't fullfill all the requirements to be a WR, then it's not a WR, even if the lift gets a higher placing on a ranking list. We need to have a minimum requirement for how much is needed to allow a new record. If that minimum level would be non existent, how would we then be able to tell who holds a particular record? Let's say that I pull 125k on the 2HP, and Jedd later on pulls 125k. Should I remain as WR holder as I were the first to lift it, or should Jedd get it as he weighs less than me? Let's say he pulls 125.003k. Is that acceptable for a new WR? It's more weight, but can we be really sure that it's more? Because now we are talking about so small differences that it's getting redicilous. We will always wonder who could do this and who could do that in all kind of sports and what not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 It's nothing you need to worry about Martin because you will never catch up with Jedd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbe705 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 keeping 2 lists also means 2x the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel reinard Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 For the majority of those who break records it is a planned deal. Maybe on rare occasion an unknowing person, perhaps someone new, will break one. Breaking records includes more than performing a lift. Strategy is key. I like to go in with a list of all my lifts already written out along with the current records for the lifts. Sometimes during the heat of the comp it's nice to refer back to the game plan and also check what it takes to beat the record that day. One can count on the promoter knowing the rules but can you expect them to memorize all current records? Just a thought for those chasing records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 A few points... Anyone who is holding a grip contest should be aware of this and should not allow a competitor to do this. If they are running a comp which has an established World Record, then they should be ready to push that competitor to lift the minimum above the record. You've got to put a minimum requirement in there somewhere. Otherwise someone could lift an ounce more than the previous record. What kind of a record would that be? There has to be a line drawn. I don't see the point of having two lists. What it essentially amounts to is an unoffical lift because they didn't meet requirements. There are expectations for World Record performances in many sports. Some have been cited above. My understanding is that with sprinting events in Track and Field, records can be disqualified if there is too much wind. Again, not a completely parallel example to our discussion, but neither is the arm wrestling example, since we are not saying the lift has to be done at any particular level of competition, but I do understand the point that confusion can be generated due to how things played out. I see it all going back to the promoter having the responsibility to make sure the competitors' attempts meet the requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acorn Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 As to how I am setting up the lists this would be a non issue anyway. Performances will be ranked on the amount automatically. Whether or not it is a World Record is noted in a different column and is separate. It would be up to the promoter and the competitor attempting to break a record to know the rules on this. It has happened in the past where an attempt was made on the 2HP record only to find out after the comp and weighing everything that the lift was in fact less than what it needed to be. That happened to Steve within the last few years I remember. It was up to him as both a promoter and the competitor in question to make sure the lift was enough. This is not much different. - Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_Arildsson Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 It's nothing you need to worry about Martin because you will never catch up with Jedd. Oh, you little tease! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I understand but what will you do if it happens? Will you disqualify the lift? I guess that would be the only option as you can't have a situation where a valid lift is higher than the WR. I would agree with Jedd in that it's the promoter's responsibility to know the rules but I'm not a fan of the rule itself. It sets the stage for paper champions and more importantly how will they rank on the top 50 list. Are we really going to put them at #2 with a higher lift? You must have two different lists, one for WR only, and another for ranking. I don't see a problem with that. I do because it means that if you're the WR holder, you're not necessarily the best in the world so your WR doesn't have the same meaning. This plagues AW as well. You have WAF champs who are not ranked #1 in their weight classes because certain people don't show up to Worlds so then you get into the questions of does the World Champion title mean your the best in the world or is it just a title and can you leapfrog somebody in rankings that you've never beat? I hope the Grip Collective strongly considers what the ramifications are of keeping two lists. If a successfull WR is made and it matches all the requirements, it will be the world record. Which we of course agree on. If a successfull lift is done, and this lift is done with more weight then the current WR, but doesn't fullfill all the requirements to be a WR, then it's not a WR, even if the lift gets a higher placing on a ranking list. We need to have a minimum requirement for how much is needed to allow a new record. If that minimum level would be non existent, how would we then be able to tell who holds a particular record? Let's say that I pull 125k on the 2HP, and Jedd later on pulls 125k. Should I remain as WR holder as I were the first to lift it, or should Jedd get it as he weighs less than me? Let's say he pulls 125.003k. Is that acceptable for a new WR? It's more weight, but can we be really sure that it's more? Because now we are talking about so small differences that it's getting redicilous. We will always wonder who could do this and who could do that in all kind of sports and what not. So would you rather be ranked #1 or be the "WR holder"? As for your example of you and Jedd; you share the record but you get to claim you were the first man to break into the 125 territory. Body weight is a non-issue because you'll both be competing in the same weight class. Assuming you weren't though, then each class has a WR or a #1 (which I think should be interchangeable terms) much the same as other weight class sports have WR for each class. Regarding the minute amounts: we should allow whatever we make people calibrate out to for WR attempts. If we don't think we can accurately measure that far out/small then ease up on the calibration precision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) A few points... Anyone who is holding a grip contest should be aware of this and should not allow a competitor to do this. If they are running a comp which has an established World Record, then they should be ready to push that competitor to lift the minimum above the record. You've got to put a minimum requirement in there somewhere. Otherwise someone could lift an ounce more than the previous record. What kind of a record would that be? There has to be a line drawn. I don't see the point of having two lists. What it essentially amounts to is an unoffical lift because they didn't meet requirements. There are expectations for World Record performances in many sports. Some have been cited above. My understanding is that with sprinting events in Track and Field, records can be disqualified if there is too much wind. Again, not a completely parallel example to our discussion, but neither is the arm wrestling example, since we are not saying the lift has to be done at any particular level of competition, but I do understand the point that confusion can be generated due to how things played out. I see it all going back to the promoter having the responsibility to make sure the competitors' attempts meet the requirements. I'd agree with about everything but the bolded statements. So if you want to put a minimum in and you don't want two lists what happens to somebody that lifts 1 ounce more than your WR? Are you saying that lift doesn't count at all and they get a goose egg for that attempt while those that are pulling less weight potentially move up the pinch list? And to answer the question, it would be an ounce heavier than the WR and thus stronger. If we don't think we can accurately measure that then what is the point of going out to the hundreths on the calibration process? Edited February 10, 2012 by jad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 A few points... Anyone who is holding a grip contest should be aware of this and should not allow a competitor to do this. If they are running a comp which has an established World Record, then they should be ready to push that competitor to lift the minimum above the record. You've got to put a minimum requirement in there somewhere. Otherwise someone could lift an ounce more than the previous record. What kind of a record would that be? There has to be a line drawn. I don't see the point of having two lists. What it essentially amounts to is an unoffical lift because they didn't meet requirements. There are expectations for World Record performances in many sports. Some have been cited above. My understanding is that with sprinting events in Track and Field, records can be disqualified if there is too much wind. Again, not a completely parallel example to our discussion, but neither is the arm wrestling example, since we are not saying the lift has to be done at any particular level of competition, but I do understand the point that confusion can be generated due to how things played out. I see it all going back to the promoter having the responsibility to make sure the competitors' attempts meet the requirements. I'd agree with about everything but the bolded statements. So if you want to put a minimum in and you don't want two lists what happens to somebody that lifts 1 ounce more than your WR? Are you saying that lift doesn't count at all and they get a goose egg for that attempt while those that are pulling less weight potentially move up the pinch list? And to answer the question, it would be an ounce heavier than the WR and thus stronger. If we don't think we can accurately measure that then what is the point of going out to the hundreths on the calibration process? I've got to agree with Josh here - if there is no certainty that a weight of 125.01kg is 0.01kg heavier than 125.00kg then there's no point in weighing things to 0.01kg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Here's the best reason for the rule I can provide: even calibrated powerlifting or olympic plates, which you pay a high premium for, are not guaranteed to be exact weights. Ivanko, for example, states their calibrated plates are within 10 grams of face value. If we allowed records to be broken by very small amounts there is a good chance you would have guys breaking world records with a weight that's actually slightly less than the world record. We can all agree this would be bad. The IPF and USAPL have minimum weights for breaking world and national records. Also, if grip was to one day require calibrated kilo plates, as do other international strength sports, it's important to note the smallest incremental jump is 0.5 kilos, as made available by a pair of 0.25 kilo plates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acorn Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I think the point is there is tolerance stack up. Say you scale is off by .02 and you have 10+ plates on the bar. That could mean that it is actually .2 off what you think it is. By measuring the individual elements as accurately as possible you mitigate this as much as can be without having to weigh the whole assembled mass on an accurate scale. - Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autolupus Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Is that 0.5kg or 0.5lb as Mikael fails to make it certain in his post? Edited February 10, 2012 by Autolupus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 If you go lift in any Organizations meet (IPF or IWF just for example) and don't follow the rules on the loading (or anything else) for a record - you would not even be allowed to make the attempt - the judges would not allow the bar to be loaded to that weight. So if a promoter wants to lift within a particular organization and have the results accepted by that organization - then you have to follow the rules. If you don't agree to that - you simply don't ask for your contest to be sanctioned by that organization and lift on your own - keep your own records - and end up with something like Power Lifting is today maybe. Everyone wanting and making their own rules (or lack there of) is what has brought us to the point where we are today of putting forth a collective. The collective really is putting in a lot of thought into every decision we make - and every minute we spend on the forum arguing every little thing is time we are not able to work towards the goal of putting things all together in one package. We will make decisions you as an individual may not agree with - and some will no doubt be changed, and some not I am sure. We will have a methodology for change in the rules book - and I'm pretty sure it will not be "every person on three or four forums throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks". Let us do our jobs please at least - then tear it apart after you see it - not before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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