mossman Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 terminator, you are a great bender, no doubts there.....but why do isnt JB like i think? i have his DVD, its exactly like i think.....please dont get mad at me because you and shrug are fighting......and leave the board alone, just cause one guy cant keep his mouth shut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AP Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 At this point, I'm really sorry I worked with David to try to bring bending to a respectable competition level. This board really sucks lately. This is just good old-fashioned arguing, don't get too bent (sorry) out of shape about it Pat. Bending is more popular than ever thanks to you two. I have never considered nailbending to be a grip event compared to say pinchgrip or thickbar, or even phonebook tearing. This is the gripboard not the bending board. Where the heck does bending belong then, oldguy? Powerlifting? The bench/squat/dealift and bend? Olympic lifting? C&J/Snatch/bend? C'mon, bending is a grip event because it requires the use of power through the hands. And in what way is it difficult to judge bending for a contest? Here's a straight bar, take one of them there rags to pad it, and make it un-straight without pressing it into your legs or hips or anything. How hard is that? Bending is terrific! how different would Olympic lifting be if all competitors were required to squat jerk instead of split?? Actually, Olympic lifting presents a good example of a slight change in style. Originally the 'clean' did not allow for ANY body contact below the shoulders. Athletes figured out they could get a few pounds here and there by making some brief contact against the thighs. The clean is still a fast, athletic lift. Still difficult to do, and to learn. And still fun I don't think folding is anything on par (in terms of cheating) with the bench shirt. I think bending will survive... oh, and JB braces his bends. The only true bending sin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Boxing applies power through the hands as does hitting a nail through a board with an open palm, or breaking wood like Karate. In the case of bending steel - I already stated earlier - it's a feat of strength. One does grip the cloth, leather etc hard so that both the cloth and bar doesn't slip out of our hands but it doesn't need to be gripped harder to bend it more. Just enough. I will agree that braced is even less of a grip strength test than unbraced. I mean you could hold it in position with a finger, providing enough power pressing down is applied (painfully) the bar will bend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossman Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 would someone please explain how JB braces his bends? cause it sure as hell doesnt look like it to me....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I have the Best of JB dvd and if you watch he quickly braces over his hip/uppermost thigh in the beginning of all his bends. He doesn't just place the item at his waist and fold his hands downward like he describes in GMM. I'm a HUGE JB fan too but the pics in MILO and in GMM are deceiving. I've tried nails this way and it's still very hard, for me at least. To compare yourself to him do the brace very quickly. It can't be a long drawn out affair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ostlund Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 They're just two different ways to bend metal. I definitely cannot bend a Red using the folding technique and I respect people's ability to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSW Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Dave Ostlund, Shrug, Big Steve and others using double underhand prove that it's possible to bend big nails/bars without using the push-on-the-ends technique. I am pretty sure Pat's original Red bends were without pushing on the ends. I also think that, in the absence of pushing or bracing, the double underhand is the stronger technique. I know that I can lever way more to the rear than the front. I can bend a 6"x1/4" Grade 5 bolt double underhand, but only a Yellow nail overhand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danegarreau Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 They're just two different ways to bend metal. I definitely cannot bend a Red using the folding technique and I respect people's ability to do that. I agree with Dave. I can't bend a red either way, but i can't bend anything with the "folding" technique. I prefer David Horne's technique because that is what i'm good at. Everyone has different leverages and strengths, therefore people will bend with different styles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I still cornfused. Is Pat's double overhand considered folding? How much has to be out to be considered folding? Folding is, using my own definition of the term, when you apply lateral pressure straight into the ends of the bar at the start of the bend. When I switch from the old-Terminator reverse grip style to the double overhand I either bend the bar without lateral pressure being applied to the ends (=bending) or apply as much lateral force to the ends of the bar as my upper body strength and padding allow (=folding). Then I switch to holding it with one hand and pushing with the other before the final crushdown with fingers interlocked. I don't know if Pat pushes into the ends of the bar at an early stage of the bend, only he would know as it is not very obvious from the video clips I have seen. The most common folding technique is to start double overhand without first achieving a kink with the reverse style. In theory, double underhand could also be done in folding style (with the hands wide apart) although I have not tried it I must admit. The disadvantage of folding in allround grip strength competitions is that is places less emphasis on wrist strength than other styles. Bending can be a good wrist exercise and it would be a pity if it will not be used in grip strength competitions. It will be up to the organisers to set the rules. I intensely dislikes including events that are moving away from fore arm strength in grip competitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Can a person regardless of style, be a good nail bender without having a strong grip? I am not talking about wrist or forearm strength, but strong hands. Probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I don't know if Pat pushes into the ends of the bar at an early stage of the bend, only he would know as it is not very obvious from the video clips I have seen. Typically I don't, unless my hands are injured and I adjust around the pain. It happens from time to time. For what it's worth, when I bend all out my wrists get destroyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 It will be up to the organisers to set the rules. I intensely dislikes including events that are moving away from fore arm strength in grip competitions. But, if we use that mentality, then 1-arm lifts (1-arm max deadlift, v-bar, etc.) should not be used either as it is very possible for the body to be the limited factor over the hands. Some fellas on this board have the grip strength to pull mind blowing 1-arm deadlift weights, and v-bar weights, but lack the back strength to actually do it. This could be do to injury or weakness. Rick Walker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Its the word cheating that gets me, people are bending and it is NOT clear how rules are being broken. I think what he ment is that folding should not be compared to other styles if we talk about forearm strength. Opposing views tend to get exaggerated in on-line discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 ...moving away.... Some lifts,like v-bar and one hand lifts require a strong body, that is true, but what I tried to say is that we should not make these even less grip oriented. In the selection of the events for the Europeans, David Horne and myself favoured for example v-bar lift without thumb lock as it allows people with less overall body strength to excel if they have a strong grip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I would think multiple layers off leather would only make the bend harder. If a person wraps a nail that has 1/2" of over hang with leather that it 1/2" in diameter, it will be easier than bending the same bar with 68 layers of leather that make the diameter 2" with the same 1/2" overhang. Your reasoning of saying leather is stiff looses me. The same would be true with a towel. 1/2" of overhang with a 1/2" diameter towel would be easier than the same thing that was 2" thick. Pain would be worse, but there's no since in being a girl about it........... I think an apples to apples comparision is in order, one of the best benders needs to become a folder and see what they can do. Let's get this party started!! I have no doubt that leather, in the right thickness, stiffness, length etc. could make a bend significantly easier for a folder. I am not sure it would help anyone else. I am not even sure Shrug referred to Pat. I doubt he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 In order for folding to be cheating it would have to be breaking a rule and it is not. Saying that folding is cheating is the most ridiculous thing I have heard here in a while. If a contest was held where "folding" was a banned method for "bending" and then someone folded, it would be cheating plain and simple. I would not place too much emphasis on single words used in heated on-line discussions. He could have ment that a "folder" bending steel at his level would be pulverised by him in virtually all classic wrist strength exercises, indicating that the folding technique is a less suitable exercise for displaying fore arm strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Ease of judging is essential to a competition - many great feats of strength or exercises are very poor events because they are near impossible to standardize and judge. Bending is one of these. Therefor - not a good choice for competiton. The truth is that there are basically no wrist events really suitable for strict judging in a competition (with the possible exception of the extraordinarily boring weaver stick lift). They are all pretty bad imo, although I feel bending is among the better choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I tend to like events that take whole body strength (hence my having a 310 pound an arm deadlift and hold in BFGS). IMO, grip is part of a strong body. To have grip strength without body strength is a bad goal, and vice versa. To truly have a grip only contest, one would have to include events that are hands only. This means, no rolling thunder, no thick bar, no 1-hand lifts, no v-bar, no 2-hand pinch (lets face it-some may be able to 2-hand pinch more then they can stand up with-specifically someone with a back injury), no deadlift and hold, no double overhead deadlifts, no bending. A true, hands and forearm only, contest would be-grippers, thumb strength via the TTK or squeezer or some other thumb contraption, wrist roller of some type, plate wrist curls, maybe sledge levering where the arm is braced some how to involve on the wrist and forearm, and some sort of finger extension. Rick Walker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I also think that, in the absence of pushing or bracing, the double underhand is the stronger technique. Not for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 A true, hands and forearm only, contest would be-grippers, thumb strength via the TTK or squeezer or some other thumb contraption, wrist roller of some type, plate wrist curls, maybe sledge levering where the arm is braced some how to involve on the wrist and forearm, and some sort of finger extension. Problem is that the overhand folders are, regardless of what some of them are trying usto believe, turning bending into a material sport as their style depends on the padding saving them from pierced palms. Ask them to bend a nail without padding and you would see a drop in performance far worse than that of "benders". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Another thing, how come so many of you shouting to have these threads locked are have an extremely hard time trying to stay away from them. They seem to generate more interest than pretty much any other topics. A bit of a paradox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Time for you to say 'I told u so'?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Another thing, how come so many of you shouting to have these threads locked are have an extremely hard time trying to stay away from them. They seem to generate more interest than pretty much any other topics. A bit of a paradox. Or better - now we have joined u, who wouldn't leave it, in your bending vs folding club?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHRUG Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Mikael is correct, I am not aiming my comments toward anyone. I am not saying that any person is a joke I am saying that Folding can not be compared to bending. I agree that the movement still takes strength to perform just not nearly the degree of lowerarm and wrist strength that bending does. If there is gonna be this much anger over a thread like this then I say who gives a shit. Let people bend how they wanna bend and I will continue to train my ass off and beat them in the style that I bend. That comment is not aimed at anyone, it is simply a statement. I love the sport of bending and I know many others do as well, I do not want the sport to be destroyed by this argument. I have voiced my opinion and everyone knows how I feel but I dont care anymore because this is getting really stupid. Lets just get back to freindly competition, who agrees with me on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHRUG Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Oh, I would like to make one more thing clear. I am not saying that all double overhand bending is bad, infact it can be very hard if done the traditional way. I am saying that using very stiff custom made rags or hard leather is where I think the cheating comes into paly, and again I am not directing that comment toward anyone I am just stating the fact. Just to give you guys an example my good friend Brett Jones destroyed that 6.5" RED NAIL double overhand and was using nothing more than IM blue rags, that is a very good example of correct doubleoverhand bending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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