Bill Piche Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Plain and Simple: Folding is cheatingIt is not the same as bending by using lower arm and wrist strength and anyone who thinks that it is even remotely as difficult is kidding themselves. So is taking pro-hormones and steroids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Shrug are you better at folding than you are at using the under hand style? If so how much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Can a person regardless of style, be a good nail bender without having a strong grip? I am not talking about wrist or forearm strength, but strong hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHRUG Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 A towel is not stiff, leather is. I use small terry cloth hand towels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-man Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Shrug, I have nothing but respect for your strength and bending accomplishments. Its the word cheating that gets me, people are bending and it is NOT clear how rules are being broken. Sure I think its easier, and we all talk about how the towel may give added leverage but fact is that material is not needed for leverage, it is needed for pain in the palm when people are pushing straight into the ends of the bars (similar to what Mikael just said). Who here ever became a COC and was instantly called a cheater for using a set?? No one, the rule was clear that 1" was the min and was obviously WAY easier than the current rule. These bending rules might change down the road, but I don't see any violation right now hence no cheating. You would be the perfect candidate to show how easy 'folding' is compared to bending. Can you U 2 of your PR best cut reds by folding them instead? If so that bending is twice as hard as folding for you. apples to apples, assuming the reds are from the same batch of steel. You state it isn't 'remotely as hard', to me remote is way less than 50%, ie you should be able to fold 3,4,5 etc cut reds together. Not being a wise ass, its a hot topic and we should put some science behind it, too much speculation and hearsay right now. My wrists aren't world class, but they sure as hell hurt after I 'fold' for a while....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I would think multiple layers off leather would only make the bend harder. If a person wraps a nail that has 1/2" of over hang with leather that it 1/2" in diameter, it will be easier than bending the same bar with 68 layers of leather that make the diameter 2" with the same 1/2" overhang. Your reasoning of saying leather is stiff looses me. The same would be true with a towel. 1/2" of overhang with a 1/2" diameter towel would be easier than the same thing that was 2" thick. Pain would be worse, but there's no since in being a girl about it........... I think an apples to apples comparision is in order, one of the best benders needs to become a folder and see what they can do. Let's get this party started!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danegarreau Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Replying to Shrug, that is another way of describing it. For competition, we either need to standardize wrapping, making it impossible to push hard straight into the ends of a straight bar... I thought that when Eric dominated a Red NAIL with only Iron Mind clothes it settled the old too much overhang debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 In order for folding to be cheating it would have to be breaking a rule and it is not. Saying that folding is cheating is the most ridiculous thing I have heard here in a while. If a contest was held where "folding" was a banned method for "bending" and then someone folded, it would be cheating plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossman Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 ok this is getting out of hand.......personally, i do agree with shrug, i do think it is a form of cheating.... but if people are comfortable with it, fine.....a quote from voltaire describes my feelings perfectly...."i may disagree with what you have to say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it." i bend double oerhand, just slightyly above the belt, with my hands touching....JB is my idol, i feel he is the greatest bender in the world, so i will try to follow his example......M.S., it seems from the way you speak the only people exempt from your criticism is JB himself, since he bends right at waist level...god just let this die already.....c'mon bill, or one of the mods lock this down im getting sick of this guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gripmaniac Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Using multiple layers of leather is a joke in itself. Firstly, I'd just like to say how much I'm enjoying further civil discussion on this issue . . . . . . this is after all a discussion board is it not? Shrug/Mikael, I have to admit that I am now starting to see the point(s) you're trying to make. What does this mean for me? Well, it means I'm now thinking about how much padding I'm using & whether I'm more folding than bending (double overhand) my victims. My reason for bending is that I want to develop strong wrists. I'm actually not too fussed whether or not I reach a milestone of bending a piece of steel with a catchy name. I just want to get stronger (and have a bit of fun getting there ) I'm sure others see things in a different light . . .and I don't have a problem with that. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcham Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 If a contest was held where "folding" was a banned method for "bending" and then someone folded, it would be cheating plain and simple. Exactly... and Mikael's point is that in contest we probably should consider it cheating. Dave Ostlund, Shrug, Big Steve and others using double underhand prove that it's possible to bend big nails/bars without using the push-on-the-ends technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMunger Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 (edited) Ugh... I use cordura. To me, I feel like it creates enough pain mitigation for my bending. I don't think I would gain anything from leather, because I don't feel like the pain is the limiting factor. Maybe it would, hard saying without trying it. Is bending (yes bending, the modification of the shape of metal) supposed to be about strength or pain tolerance? Sure pain tolerance is cool and all, but if it's supposed to be about pain, why not just have someone kick you in the nuts before you bend? Edited July 19, 2004 by CMunger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffPeterson Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 So who can bend both ways? Would they be the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the swiss Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 (edited) I don't think bending as such is a good competition event for testing wrist strength. maybe kinking thicker bars with the old Pat style, or double underhand would be. Edited July 19, 2004 by the swiss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bballdad Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Think Dave M. can bend both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 If a contest was held where "folding" was a banned method for "bending" and then someone folded, it would be cheating plain and simple. Exactly... and Mikael's point is that in contest we probably should consider it cheating. Dave Ostlund, Shrug, Big Steve and others using double underhand prove that it's possible to bend big nails/bars without using the push-on-the-ends technique. Bending - pushing down from above so that the bars ends rest at the base / pinkie end of the palm. Folding Pushing from below so that the bars ends are near the index finger? If this is right both methods are pushing it's just the place that the leaverage comes from - the point where we push/bend is moved from one side of the hand to another. For my method, 'bending', is nothing like a grip movement until I bend it enough to close the ends in my hands as though it were a gripper. It all pecs and triceps for the first 2/3 of the movement with a lot of pain and pressure on the hands. I suspect the same pain occurs in the wrists of 'folders'. I feel noting at all in the wrists whatsoever as they do not get bent back at all. I do it for 2 reasons - cos it's in the competitions and I want to place well and because, on the warm up bolts and nails, it's a fun feat of strength to freak the public/mates/friends out with. You might add that its a recognised feat of strength and it's a good way of measuring yourself against others but I have never thought of this as a hand strength/grip movement. Back to the fold or bend - whatever suits you (sir). It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I was up against a folder in a competition - damn looking at how the wrists get bent back he/she gets my admiration - it looks soooo painful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Can a person regardless of style, be a good nail bender without having a strong grip? I am not talking about wrist or forearm strength, but strong hands. Yes - see my latest reply - other than the last 2 inches or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Re the leather or towel. I use towel but would train with leather if comp rules say that's what I must do. The Ironmind cloth (kevlar) works only in so far as it doesn't tear too well. Leather pads work only in so far as not allowing the hands to get punctured. Towels work only if passed (as Iron Grip) before being used by judges. In training I tend to over fold and really pad up when crushing down but in competition I ignore the pain as I get fired up and will only need to do one good bar to place well - not several as in training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I have never considered nailbending to be a grip event compared to say pinchgrip or thickbar, or even phonebook tearing. This is the gripboard not the bending board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJones Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Bending is a feat of strength - plain and simple - the hands and wrists are involved because any power or pressure developed by the upper body in the course of a bend ends up being transferred through these areas to the object being bent. Ease of judging is essential to a competition - many great feats of strength or exercises are very poor events because they are near impossible to standardize and judge. Bending is one of these. Therefor - not a good choice for competiton. The flop technique in the high jump, conventional vs. sumo, arched back for the bench press vs. flat back, split jerk vs. squat jerk - how different would Olympic lifting be if all competitors were required to squat jerk instead of split?? The Press was eliminated from the Olympics for this reason - just became something impossible to judge. Is a wide stance squat less of a squat then a narrow stance? High bar vs. low bar....... And it could go on and on and on.... I bend - period. Brett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Old Guy - ditto and Brett - ditto. I do cos I must not because I consider it grip. Others decided that for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Using multiple layers of leather is a joke in itself. Shrug, are you calling me a joke? BTW, I use thin compliant suede, not any rigid stuff. I've reserved commentary on your appearance at NOS, don't open a can of shit, because you won't like the taste. At this point, I'm really sorry I worked with David to try to bring bending to a respectable competition level. This board really sucks lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 i bend double oerhand, just slightyly above the belt, with my hands touching....JB is my idol, i feel he is the greatest bender in the world, so i will try to follow his example......M.S., it seems from the way you speak the only people exempt from your criticism is JB himself, since he bends right at waist level... Have you ever seen him bend? It ain't like you think.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 It's also very easy to push on the ends of the bar with the double-underhand technique. Just because someone is going double-underhand doesn't mean they are using all wrist strength. Unless we're bending Slim style or double overhand at the waist we're all guilty of using a lot more than wrist strength to bend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Using multiple layers of leather is a joke in itself. Shrug, are you calling me a joke? BTW, I use thin compliant suede, not any rigid stuff. I've reserved commentary on your appearance at NOS, don't open a can of shit, because you won't like the taste. At this point, I'm really sorry I worked with David to try to bring bending to a respectable competition level. This board really sucks lately. There's nothing wrong with what you do or what you did with David. I don't even mind that it's in the comps and we all know that, at the top level, it's damn hard to do - but is it grip?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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