Should i build grip testing machines?

[Guest 86-1005097353]

I might be the only active grip enthusiast on the board who has his own engineering factory and who currently designs and builds professional gym equipment.

Since arriving on this site about a month ago I have seen all sorts of disputes and questions concerning various feats of grip strength. In pinch gripping there is no standard regarding the thickness, material or apparatus used to test such ability.

With CoC grippers and other brands there is much controversy about just who has succeeded with what. After much debate it was agreed that grippers should be calibrated before recognition is given for closing them. Anyone who reads the sites of the manufacturers soon realises that springs are notoriously innaccurate devices that vary from item to item and batch to batch. There is also a problem with accepting witnesses. Unless and until there are occasions where calibrated grippers can be used to test individuals there is always going to be controversy.

The situation with Joe Kinney is not satisfactory. It isn't fair to him or anyone else who aspires to close those diabolical devices!

I was wondering if there is a need to have a properly designed gripper testing apparatus that can be used to accredit attempts and also test and compare grip strength. As you all know I have built a machine to test pinch gripping ability. It is controversial because few out there have access to the machine which resides in Sydney, Australia. Those wanting to test their pinch grip shouldn't have to travel to Australia to do so. However, until more machines are made then a standard, if it were accepted, is unlikely to exist.

There is no point in my spending time designing and building a testing machine or two if such machines are not going to be used or accepted. Oh, I could run my own contests and call it whatever I want. That is not going to unify our sport either.

At the moment I build gym equipment only for my gym in Sydney. I will not build equipment for anyone else. There is a demand for new equipment at the gym that we do not have. I also have designs for a running machine that can be used to assist athletes and sprinters. That would be far more profitable than making a grip testing unit that very few people will actually use.

If my resources are not required by this sport I will have to go my own way and not get too involved. However, there seems to be a need for more ways to accurately test the performances of the various competitors and enthusiasts. At the moment we are at the mercy of the few grip equipment manufacturers out there. I am not building any equipment for profit, although I am trying to sell some of my designs. A biceps-supinator, for example.

At the moment Ironmind and others seem to influence our sport in a big way. How come it is such a big deal to close those training devices? Yes, I know it takes a huge force to close some of them. But why should closing grippers be part of our sport when those devices are more training aids than actual testing devices? It is a matter of time before we see a number 5! Anyone who has used those springs knows they are way too far apart re the amount of tension needed to close successive numbers. That is not very satisfactory at all. Yes, those grippers are relatively cheap, and a great conversation piece but we in the sport should have more accurate ways to measure and test our grip strength.

Until I made a pinch grip machine we had all sorts of controversies regarding if and when a lift was successful. Now there are no controversies and everyone involved knows when a successful lift occurs. That is far better than needing judges to determine whether a lift is performed properly or has been successful.

That I am a competitor might seem to make me have a vested interest in just what apparatus exist. After 42 years in the Irongame I am very aware of the vast differences that exist in the sport. I have always said that doing half of the world record in any event is a good performance. A number 2 gripper is a good feat, for example. A 500 pound squat is a strong feat, indeed. I have never believed that I possess the ability to be the best in anything in the world. It can happen that because of timing one can be first to achieve certain things. Eventually there will arrive superpeople who put our best efforts to shame. That is always going to be true.

I believe our sport needs to go the next step and have contests held that are deserving of the talent involved. We need to have better ways to measure and test what we do, and reward those who are proficient. It is about time we had recognized world champions in our sport.

[Guest 86-1005097353]

I can see that my question got heaps of responses!

Are there any other engineers on the board?

A question that comes to mind is how come there is only one professional piece of grip testing equipment that exists? My pinch grip machine. The answer should explain the woeful situation. I suppose we can conclude that no other manufacturer has considered there would be any point building such machines because who is going to buy them? Therefore, no one can make any money out of building them.

Have you people any idea how much it would cost to commission someone to build grip testing devices? I would say such a project would take a couple of months and need at least two prototypes. All up you would be lucky to build them for $10,000 each. It really is doing someone a favour because no manufacturer can exist if he builds custom made items. Once the first machine was built the next one would be far easier. With my pinch grip machine we have gone through 2 prototypes and have modified the latest one to include more weight and a platform. The next model will have to have more weights and perhaps a wider platform. My experience has shown me that it usually takes about 5 prototypes before the machine is perfected.

I build machines more or less as a hobby. I used to build equipment for other gyms 20 years ago. When I stopped I needed a place to house my machines so bought a factory. In the meantime I have been slowly building machines for the gym. I can tell you it would be far cheaper to buy machines and let someone else do all the developmental work. The main reason I build equipment is because I cannot find what I want in the quality I want. There is little profit in gym equipment and in recent years there has been a contraction in the industry and the almagamation of several companies that couldn't exist on their own.

I can see a grip squeezer machine. It is possible to build them with parallel handles or with handles to resemble the spring grippers.

Another machine could be one similar to the Rolling Thunder apparatus but with a weight stack. The handle can be 2 1/2 inches thick and rotate in two directions to make it free like a dumbbell. Well, not quite. It would rotate in the hand and also in a circle. The handle could be installed at a height equal to the Inch Dumbbell so that this apparatus would be a test of that grip feat. Instead of loading plates the machine would have 300 or so pounds on it. That way everyone can quickly be measured for grip strength.

What I need is recommendations about specific requirements for the machines. The length and thickness of handles, etc.

I can visualise a contest using several of these machines.

[Roark]

Vince,

I am not an engineer, but it seems to me that

comparative strengths would be a major factor

in the field. For example, if we did not know the

ratio of meaning between kilograms and pounds,

discussions about lifter A hoisting 100 lbs and

lifter B hoisting 100 kilos would be without meaning.

The first step toward any comparison would be

to understand the ratio.

I cannot speak for everyone, but my curiosity was

piqued when on your machine you have managed

to pinch 30%-to 50% more than David Horne, who,

we all know, did not just happen to fall off a cabbage

wagon into a grip contest. He is, by any knowledgeable

person's definition, world level in pinching. Perhaps you

are also.  Lifters A & B.

There is no doubt in my mind that David would make

a try on your machine if he had opportunity. Perhaps

this is why you are offering to manufacture the machines.

But in the meantime, a few of us are puzzled by your

repeated failure to acknowledge the messages here as

to what you can pinch on barbell plates. It is as though

you have ignored those inquiries. Unlike David, you have

opportunity to try this lift. Today.

By doing so, you will give us a ratio. If your effort is close

to what other world level pinchers can do, then perhaps

your machine has merit, but if you can only pinch, say,

70 pounds (not 70 kgs), then I for one will be confused

as to your machine's ratio, given the numbers you can

pinch on it.

One final point. If you refuse to to try to pinch plates,

then the matter holds no more interest for me, because

it also seems to me that part of engineering would be

to demonstrate relative strengths, because if an elevator

is rated at 3,000 pounds capacity in the lab, but in

reality fails at 2,000, I'll take reality, and will not be

along for the ride.

[Kevin Fulton]

Vince,

I have read some of your posts but limited time has prevented me from reading all of them in their entirety, but I did want to address a couple of issues you have asked about.

First of all I do not think of your pinch gripping machine as the only professional piece of grip testing equipment around as you have stated.  I think there are lots out there made by companies such as IronMind, PDA, Sorinex and others.  They may not be shiny stainless steel or have weight stacks but in my opinion they are just as effective and probably more appealing to they type of people that are into heavy grip training.  Personally I start drooling when I see my Inch DB or my PDA Farmers Bars but shiny machines with weight stacks are not my personal preference.  Nothing gave me a rush like standing next to the Dinnie Stones as primitive as they may be!

Personal preferences aside, I have looked at the pictures of your pinch machine and it looks to be a very well designed apparatus.  I am also impressed with the weight you are lifting on it!  However I don't think that is what many of us are looking for.  Besides the cost alone would make most shy away from this type of equipment.  It's like this----why buy a $3000 leg press machine to do lockouts when I already have a barbell and power rack for a fraction of the cost.

I am an active competitor in the USAWA/IAWA and have hosted 3 grip contests here in the U.S.  (Super Grip Challenge)  as well as other lifting events.  To my knowledge this is one of the few or possibly the only multi-event grip contest in America.  The contest is sanctioned by the USAWA and we try to do things in the tradition of the old time strongmen as their mission statement implies.  I do not believe the competitors at my contests would find lifting on a pinch machine very appealing.  As Nick McKinless stated, most of us want to get chalk on our hands and get down and dirty.  The last thing most of us would like to do is wash our hands and the equipment thoroughly before every attempt.  And then lift on a "machine" where there is a very small range of motion.   All of these observations are based on my own personal experiences from 23 years of competitive lifting.  In no way am I trying to downgrade your machine because I do think it looks like a fine piece of equipment that suits your needs.   Your question was "should I build grip testing machines?".  My advice would be no---unless you already have orders in place.   The same would apply for the "Rolling Thunder Machine" you describe.  Why would anyone buy that when they can buy a Rolling THunder and a plate pin for a fraction of the cost and use the weight plates they already have.  It's also about convenience.  I can take my pinch block, weight sleeve, or rolling thunder anywhere to any gym and and carry it in my gym bag.  Can't do that very easy with a machine and a 200 lb. weight stack.   I realize you are an engineer, have your own gym,  and you like to make sophisticated machines for specific purposes.  More power to ya,  all I'm saying is that I would not be too optimistic about using them to set the standard or being able to sell a bunch of them.  

I DO think there should be a standard equipment for grip records!!  But that doesn't mean that plates, bars, dumbells, grippers, rolling thunders, finger rings, etc. can't be used as standard apparatus.  The USAWA/IAWA has very specific standards and rules regarding the events they recognize.  This seems to work fine and much of the equipment can be used for  more than one event unlike a specifically designed machine.  Some of the events we have in our contest are not USAWA lifts and therefore not "standardized".  THis is no different from the events in World's Strongest man.  They are used to determine who is the strongest in the contest, not to set records.  If you want to see where you stand you must enter the competition!

I also think we should all realize that many feats of grip strength will never be standardized.  Tearing phone books, bending nails, bars, horseshoes, and rolling up frying pans are all things that should just be accepted as they are--impressive feats even without quantifying them or over ANALizing them to death with exact measurements.

While my thoughts may be discouraging towards your ideas Vince, they are just one person's opinion and I may be full of crap with my thinking.  I too am interested in what others think about these ideas.

Last of all,  I was just wondering what you can pinch using two plates either with one hand or two.  It would help many of us see how that compares to your pinch machine.  If it's not too much trouble could you please post these numbers?  Thanks.

Kevin

[Guest Dimitri]

To Roark......many years ago,when I was heavily into bodybuilding,I discovered a neat trick.My best behind the neck press at that time was 275lbs for a couple of reps........but on one paricular smith machine I could easily crank out a dozen reps with 335 or more lbs.For a while I was kinda infatuated with my reflection in the mirror hoisting what seemed to be a huge amount of weight.There was another smith machine at the other end of the gym..........this one was stiff and would actually allow less weight per movement than free weights.Guess which machine everyone used?As far as the pinch grip goes,when I state that on a good day I can pinch 80lbs one handed......using two olympic 35's,a bar between them and smaller plates,everyone here on the board knows exactly what I mean.Try it for them selfs and see how easy or hard it is.Now if I go and invent a contraption that allows me to lift more weight in the pinch.......no one here would have a clue exactly how strong or weak a lift I was talking about.As you stated.....its the comparative ratio thats important........and usually unknown.

[Guest 86-1005097353]

Thank you for the considered responses to my question.

I will attempt to address your collective concerns. It is now clear why very few of you have actually congratulated me for my performance.

There exists no ratios to compare pinch grip feats. It is my contention that each event is separate and specific and that no accurate correspondence can be predicted between performances. People who excel on one surface should perform well on others but may not excel on them.

Converting kilos to pounds is a mathematical process. Lifting on different surfaces is not a mathematical process. Therefore no comparisons can be used and there is no ratio.

**By doing so, you will give us a ratio. If your effort is close

to what other world level pinchers can do, then perhaps

your machine has merit, but if you can only pinch, say,

70 pounds (not 70 kgs), then I for one will be confused

as to your machine's ratio, given the numbers you can

pinch on it.**

Now I understand. When I post my performance pinching two Olympic plates together that will define the ratio? That is absurd because the performance of any individual is not statistically significant to establish correlations. Until others establish their ability on my machine there can be no way any ratios can be arrived at. The machine has merit whether or not I excel on it. What you mean is that my strength has no merit unless I establish a corresponding superior ability in other grip feats.

**One final point. If you refuse to to try to pinch plates,

then the matter holds no more interest for me, because

it also seems to me that part of engineering would be

to demonstrate relative strengths, because if an elevator

is rated at 3,000 pounds capacity in the lab, but in

reality fails at 2,000, I'll take reality, and will not be

along for the ride.**

I believe you are saying you will dismiss my record if I do not record an effort on pinching plates. It isn't that I have to have a go but I have to excel before you will respect what I achieved. I take it that I do not need your approval to succeed at heavy lifts on my machine.  

**First of all I do not think of your pinch gripping machine as the only professional piece of grip testing equipment around as you have stated.  I think there are lots out there made by companies such as IronMind, PDA, Sorinex and others.**

Fair enough. However, I do not believe any of those machines can be used as testing devices because there is no accurate way to declare an attempt successful. You would need judges to declare a success.

**They may not be shiny stainless steel or have weight stacks but in my opinion they are just as effective and probably more appealing to they type of people that are into heavy grip training.  Personally I start drooling when I see my Inch DB or my PDA Farmers Bars but shiny machines with weight stacks are not my personal preference.  Nothing gave me a rush like standing next to the Dinnie Stones as primitive as they may be!**

As a designer and builder of professional gym equipment I do not cater to the home market and never will. That many prefer the older apparatus is their concern. I am interested in building machines for professional gyms. Stainless steel is an expensive but superior material to use in gym equipment. If it were cheaper I would make the whole machines out of stainless, including the weight stacks. That way those machines would last indefinitely without tarnishing or chipping.

**Besides the cost alone would make most shy away from this type of equipment.  It's like this----why buy a $3000 leg press machine to do lockouts when I already have a barbell and power rack for a fraction of the cost.**

I build no machines for other consumers. Period. I am not offering to build machines for individuals. I did state that I might consider building one or two so that other countries can have them. I am not at all interested in building them as a commercial enterprise. Yes, the machines are expensive.

**The contest is sanctioned by the USAWA and we try to do things in the tradition of the old time strongmen as their mission statement implies.  I do not believe the competitors at my contests would find lifting on a pinch machine very appealing.**

I respect the mission of that group. However, when I want to test my pinch grip I prefer an accurate measuring device. I do not want to lift those old apparatus. We have found the grip contest very popular at my gym. Lots of interest and plenty of people have a go in the gym. Not so many turn up at the contests because they know what I have done. That puts plenty of people off.

** As Nick McKinless stated, most of us want to get chalk on our hands and get down and dirty.  The last thing most of us would like to do is wash our hands and the equipment thoroughly before every attempt.**

Ah, the manly business of getting one's hands dirty. I do that plenty in my factory. Tell me another gym owner who has his own gym equipment factory.  Washing the hands is required to do one's best on stainless steel. I see no sense in using surface aids to help the performance. My machine is a purer form of pinch gripping. No substances are allowed to be used. What could be more simple than that?

**And then lift on a "machine" where there is a very small range of motion.**

Now perhaps we have a serious matter to consider. What exactly is pinch gripping and how do we test it? If a person can pinch and lift a weight off the floor or supporting surface that is surely pinch gripping. How high should that weight be lifted before it counts? When you get to your limit it happens that you cannot lift the weight very high because you cannot hold the weight for very long. We have had pinch contests for over 30 years. What happened was that it was agreed that clearing the floor and seeing light under the weight was considered a success. It is very difficult to actually get down to floor level and judge if a weight has cleared the floor. Sometimes the weight shifted and sometimes people tilted the weight to one side. People on one side would see light under the weight while people on the other side could not. This was most unsatisfactory. All these concerns led to my building a machine with a flag-fall lever that indicated when the weight had cleared the ground. The machine was set at about 3/4 inch for the last 8 years and adjusted recently to be about 3/8 inch before the lever falls. I changed the distance because people were lifting the weight but not high enough to cause the lever to fall. It was clear that the machine wasn't properly giving them credit for a success, thus the lower clearance now required. That was done for the benefit of participants and spectators. It was heartbreaking seeing the weight clearing the weight stack but the lever staying up. Now the lever falls much sooner and that makes it a more precise machine.

That is the ultimate standard. Others can comment on this standard and make suggestions. I can assure you users of the machine prefer the way it is now set up.

**All of these observations are based on my own personal experiences from 23 years of competitive lifting.  In no way am I trying to downgrade your machine because I do think it looks like a fine piece of equipment that suits your needs.**

The need it suits is to accurately measure pinch grip strength. That is what my need was and that is what others need, too.

**Your question was "should I build grip testing machines?".  My advice would be no---unless you already have orders in place.   The same would apply for the "Rolling Thunder Machine" you describe.  Why would anyone buy that when they can buy a Rolling THunder and a plate pin for a fraction of the cost and use the weight plates they already have.**

I am not building anything to sell. Period. Nor will I. I am not interested in building gym equipment for sale. I want to build machines to accurately test grip strength.

**It's also about convenience.  I can take my pinch block, weight sleeve, or rolling thunder anywhere to any gym and and carry it in my gym bag.  Can't do that very easy with a machine and a 200 lb. weight stack. **

When you get to your maximums on those apparatus are you sure you can measure when you have succeeded each time? What standards are you using. My pinch grip machine is far more convenient than any of those apparatus. It is not portable but it can easily be used at the gym. Naturally those without this machine cannot participate in its features.

** I realize you are an engineer, have your own gym,  and you like to make sophisticated machines for specific purposes.  More power to ya,  all I'm saying is that I would not be too optimistic about using them to set the standard or being able to sell a bunch of them. **

I am not a manufacturer in the market place and have no signs on my factory. Neither have I anything to sell. Nor will I. I might have the only factory in the world that has nothing produced for sale.  

**I DO think there should be a standard equipment for grip records!!  But that doesn't mean that plates, bars, dumbells, grippers, rolling thunders, finger rings, etc. can't be used as standard apparatus.**

Yes, we need standards. I disagree that grippers, rolling thunder and most of that equipment can be used as standards. If we take grippers we will soon see a most unsatisfactory situation. Until we abandon using springs to measure and test performance we will never have a standard.

**THis is no different from the events in World's Strongest man.  They are used to determine who is the strongest in the contest, not to set records.  If you want to see where you stand you must enter the competition!**

Yes, events can be held to separate participants. However, the question remains: How do we accurately measure the various grip strengths?

**I also think we should all realize that many feats of grip strength will never be standardized.  Tearing phone books, bending nails, bars, horseshoes, and rolling up frying pans are all things that should just be accepted as they are--impressive feats even without quantifying them or over ANALizing them to death with exact measurements.**

Contests can be held with the various feats that you mention and we can determine standards and have winners. Timing someone ripping a phone book of X number of pages can easily and precisely be done. I will admit there are lots of problems and such contests have to be put in perspective. Nail bending has the problem of determining the force needed to bend them. That is not possible for each nail. What might be done is have a bending contest using several nails chosen at random from the same bunch then having say three nails bent and timed before a winner is declared. A certain degree of bend can be used as a template to compare attempts.

**While my thoughts may be discouraging towards your ideas Vince, they are just one person's opinion and I may be full of crap with my thinking.  I too am interested in what others think about these ideas.**

Each of us has an opinion. There are many interesting opinions expressed on this board. There is no way to determine who's opinions are best.

**Last of all,  I was just wondering what you can pinch using two plates either with one hand or two.  It would help many of us see how that compares to your pinch machine.  If it's not too much trouble could you please post these numbers?**

Well, I don't have to wonder what I can do on those plates because I know I am not that good at them. I always admired anyone who could lift two 45 Olympic plates together. It is a pity that so many here require that I perform on this feat to gain any respect for my pinching ability.

**For a while I was kinda infatuated with my reflection in the mirror hoisting what seemed to be a huge amount of weight.**

Ah, the analogy does hit home but is not valid. Yes, 203.5 pounds is a lot of weight and I am over the moon having lifted it. I achieved that using one hand on a mirror finished surface that is 52 mm thick. The 203.5 pounds is a lot of weight and it was lifted fairly and properly. There is and was no "seemed" about it. I think that unsporting of you to imply that my lift is an exaggeration.

**Now if I go and invent a contraption that allows me to lift more weight in the pinch.......no one here would have a clue exactly how strong or weak a lift I was talking about.As you stated.....its the comparative ratio thats important........and usually unknown.**

Everyone here knows exactly what I achieved. They just won't accept it. There is no ratio. Sorry about that.

[youngun]

Mr. Basile

First of all I would like to congratulate you on your fine achievement!

I'm sure, for some, that this situation is starting to become a little frustrating.  One reason I think this is happening is because of a difference in point of views.  Mostly with the attitude toward training.  As is apparent, a lot of  people on this board prefer a more "hardcore" approach to their training.  You seem to prefer the opposite.  The machines, the clean enviroment, etc.

There is nothing wrong with either method, it's just a difference in opinions.  And this difference is making it hard for some to understand each other.

Fortunately the argument at hand isn't about whether or not you lifted 203.5 pounds on your machine.  

The problem is we are just curious.  It isn't a personal attack.   We just want to know more since this is a very unique machine.

Since it is so unique we need some way to compare it with what we know.  It would not be practical for us to travel all the way to Australia, when you can walk a matter of feet and help us out.  How can your machine gain any popularity if we don't know any more about it?  But I am sure more will be revealed in the future.

On a final note, I hope your reluctance to try pinching plates has nothing to do with your ego.  That you are afraid you won't be able to lift as much, because what you have done on your machine is quite a feat that I am sure many on this board couldn't duplicate.

[RiotGrip]

Vince,  first of all I accept that you did lift 203.5 lbs on your machine period.  But, if all you are going to do is assume that everyone doubts your performance without giving any other well known performance to compare it to, then how can you really convey what you did.  

My point is not to discredit anything you have achieved, but to understand the actual level of your achievement.  Fact is if you cannot pinch 2 45 lb plates of any thickness off the ground (any height), then this implies that your machine has a very easy ratio of weight on the stack to actual force applied, or you have trained for a pinch grip feat that is extremely specific and your overall pinch grip is not outstanding.  

Also there are calibrated plates which are uniform in weight and thickness or Ironmind's pinch grip block with calibrated plates if there are balance issues with plates and a bar through them, use one of these to test your strength to give us some idea of what your pinch grip really equates to.

Now a quote from you.  "I have always had the goal to pinch grip 200 lbs with one hand"  if your machine was identical in difficulty to a pair of plates at equal thickness you've reached a standard much higher than anyone we know of.  Many could accuse you of building a machine to fulfill your own dreams, because you were unable to fulfill them any other way.

All you have done is offer rebuttals to everyone's comments and questions regarding comparing strength on your machine to pinch grip strength in any other matter.  That in itself only contributes to more skepticism against you.  Everyone who's ever achieved true greatness has come under scrutiny, why should you be any different.

Finally, I'll state again I fully believe that you lifted 203.5lbs on your pinch grip machine.  And I'll also go so far as to believe that you are the best pinch gripper of all time if you proove that you are equally exceptional in ANY other current test of pinch gripping strength.  I don't mean to bash you or discredit you, I (and others on this board) just need something to relate your achievement to.

[Kevin Fulton]

Vince--

I just don't get it.  Why do you come on here and ask all these questions and then simply rebut almost every viewpoint that everyone has presented if it doesn't follow your way of thinking???  This board is a pretty good sample of the grip community but apparently the viewpoints of others have no validity.

I assumed you truly wanted others peoples feelings about your grip machine whether positive or negative.  I assumed wrong.  I guess others have already figured that out and that is exactly why many are not responding to your posts, so they have told me in private e-mails.  Since your mind is already made up I will not bother to reply to your future posts or certainly not address any of your rebuttals even though some of them have little or no logic.

You even go as so far to state that your machine not only suits your needs but also the needs of others as well.  I'm telling you that we can all decide what our individual needs are without your help!  You act like your machine is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  Maybe it is to some people but maybe not everyone else agrees.  I also think you are taking this a little too personal.  Many of us have had great ideas and even inventions. Sometimes they get great reviews and other times they may go over like a tird in a punch bowl...

My whole point is this:  Why are you so determined that everyone like you pinch apparatus?  Is it your ego? or what?  You have already stated that you are not trying to profit so I really don't see why it is a big deal if your little group is the only ones who ever use it.

You already have all the answers you are looking for so why bother to ask these questions?  This is somehting I wish you would really think about...  You just refute everything that you do not agree with.  Yes you may excel on your machine in your own little "professional, sterile, stainless steel pinch grip world"  but most people here are interested in more than that.  The world of grip is not one dimensional.  

Just one last question for you to ponder:  Do you tell everyone you can squat or deadlift XXX amount of weight and then argue the fact that even though you only did a lockout with a 3/8" range of motion that it has more validity and is a "more accurate" test of strengh than their full squat or deadlift??   But I guess you would probably not even use a barbell because it is such an "old" method that certainly has no testing accuracy.  After all how could something so simple be accurate?  Maybe powelifting and olympic lifting should also go to stainless steel lifting machines!  I'm sure you will refuse to see my analogy here as a valid one but just think about it...

Kevin

[Roark]

I have changed my mind and will add this my final

input to this discussion:

Vince, let's say you came on the board and

said you could pinch 2-35 lb plates, and then

you built a machine on which you could pinch

over 200 lbs.

We would then have a ratio.

But you gave us the last figure first (200+) and

have refused to give us the first plate figure. So

we have no ratio.

You have a total right to pinch only on stainless,

but many of us cannot hold your achievement

stainless until we have a comparison, and that is

information that you are holding hostage.

[Guest 86-1005097353]

I see my pinch feat has been reduce to the absurd. Thanks, Kevin.

You people are not very gracious. I have achieved plenty in the Iron game over almost 43 years and have nothing to prove to anyone. I enjoy competing on pinch grip on my machine and have not participated in any of the other events.

Let me make a few statements and leave this situation at that. I did a fair pinch grip on a smooth surface that was 52 mm thick. The weight was 203.5 lbs or 92.5 kg. It was a pinch grip and no chemicals were used on the hands. Period, end of story. I do not need others to accept it to know it was a good feat.

The various pinch grip feats are NOT related unless one practices on the different surfaces and apparatus. Thinking or believing that anyone proficient on my surface and apparatus must be proficient on all others is nonsense. It makes no sense at all to ask me to lift plates. That proves nothing at all. I predict that unless someone has practiced on mirror finished stainless steel he will not excel on the machine. He might. I certainly won't be stopping anyone. My belief is that even in pinch gripping all events are not comparable. Those who do pinch gripping will know this. Arthur certainly found that out on the machine. I invite others to have a go at their convenience.

[wannagrip]

All that was asked was what you could pinch with two plates so people could get a "comparison" to your machine since you are the only one with access to it on this board. It was a simple request Vince.  In my opinion, you yourself turned it absurd.

[Guest 86-1005097353]

Arthur has posted his comments about pinching on my machine. It is a pinch grip machine afterall. That is all it is. I certainly will recognize the results that are achieved using it.

When someone writes a parody or satire of another it can be taken many ways. In the spirit of fairness I took it as humour. However, there is an agenda behind the satire and that is to poke fun at me. A bit of fun I can take.

That I can see this sport as chaotic is my opinion. Where are the standards and world champions? I claim to be a world champion in the pinch grip and support that claim by my record on my machine. Perhaps many out there do not call what I did pinch gripping. That is what you have to do to dismiss it. There are probably other world pinch grip champions who are the best on certain other apparatus.

Suppose I had some spring gripper with a huge spring on it that was rated at many more pounds than a # 4 CoC. If I claimed to have closed this new gripper and then said I was the champ in closing grippers I can understand the howls arising that I then close the #4 to prove my point. However, suppose the grippers I had were calibrated and I closed them in front of proper witnesses. Would I then be required to close any other grippers? Naturally, since the events are identical I should be able to easily close the #4.

I state as a fact and not conjecture that different surfaces and apparatus, even in pinching, are different events. Yes, pinching is involved but it makes a difference and someone proficient in one event need not be so in all other pinch grip events. It is easy to assume that there should be a high correlation but where are the experiments to prove this. It is conjecture. There are no experiments at all.

Pinching on my machine on the stainless steel is way different to pinching a block off the floor. I acknowledge that. However, both events are classed as pinch gripping. At the moment there is no organization and no definite rules stating what is and what is not a pinch grip. If in the future things change then I might have to alter my position.

The absurd thing, Mr Wannagrip, is why I should suffer the maltreatment and humiliation from so many people on this board. That is most unfair and a bit cruel.

Some don't return email and I call that ostracism. Or maybe they just don't want to exchange communications with me. I would not call it friendly.

I don't put down the performances of anyone else. As a moderator of this board you, Mr. Wannagrip, should know better. The people on this board and not myself are trying to dismiss my pinch grip feat. Why should they want to do that?

You know, when I did 82.5 kg in 1993 I thought about writing to Ironman about it. But I did nothing. I don't like promoting myself or my achievements and on this board I have had to defend what I did. That is ridiculous.

The proper thing for the board to do is recognize all verified feats and praise excellence. To put down some efforts and praise others is not the way any good community should be.

At the moment why should the guys like David and Nick and Bruce want to pinch on my machine? If they DON'T excel then does that discredit their previous performances? I suppose some might say that. Therefore, they have little to gain by having a go on my machine. I invite them to have a go, but what have they got to gain from doing so? From what I have read on this board they would be crazy to do so. All you blokes recognize pinching plates. It matters not what anyone can do on a machine. However, then can take the world record away from me and that shouldn't be hard for you younger, stronger guys.

For all of that I do understand that everyone merely wants some evidence that I can pinch other objects. I keep telling you what does that have to do with my past feats in pinch gripping? I have offered Nick or David $500 Australian dollars if they can beat my record by 2.5 kg. What more can I do? It is up to them to come forward and test themselves on my machine and see what they think of it.

Suppose we had another contest at my gym using the machine and other pinch grip specialists turned up to compete. Would that satisfy you people? I have no idea how I would go against everyone else. Just don't be so generous with the amounts you think David and others will do. No way anyone is going to outlift me by 100 pounds. I'd put my house on it!

[Roark]

Vince,

I just now re-read some of these posts and realized

you had directed some comments to me.

On the contrary, I do not dismiss your accomplishment

on your machine; I fully believe that you did what you

claim to have done, and never intended to suggest

otherwise. I apologize if my writing allowed that inter-

pretation.

All I was trying to say was that while I accept you did what

you did on your machine, it has no reference meaning to

me in comparison to other known pinch feats using more

common forms of apparatus.

On the other hand, you are inviting some of these

criticisms because, well, why, Vince, because why?

You could stop this in an instant, but you choose not to.

We are asking you to define comparative terms. You

are under no obligation to do so, but we are under no

obligation to dismiss other pinchers' lifts on plates simply

because their numbers are not as high as yours. You are

using an apparatus that side-steps the manner in which

all known pinch records have been established, or even

informally demonstrated. You are asking us to ignore

the wonderful history this sport has. You may prove

to be the strongest pincher yet known- you are on

your machine, and perhaps could be on plates. Candidly,

I doubt that, but my ignorance of the matter is in your

hands. You can enlighten me or you can swim against

the current.

Frankly, I think you have some valuable things to add

to this board, and perhaps this initial impasse can be

forgotten.

I will finish with this. Let's assume David Horne is

standing next to your machine and the gym members

there are urging him to have a go on it. But David

says no, he holds the record on barbell plates and has

nothing to prove. He then walks out of your gym.

Frankly, I would be very puzzled by that scenario, and

in reality, I suspect he would have a go on your machine

and whether he surpassed you or not, he would deserve

a round of appluase for being sport enough to try it.

You are standing next to barbell plates, and we are urging

you to have a go at them. Whether or not you surpass

David, I would commend you for having tried the plates.

If someone else builds a machine and can pinch 500 lbs

on it, will you then concede that he is stronger, or would

you want to know the ratio to your machine. I suspect

the board has some members who could build a machine

where even I could post big numbers. But so what?

I find it difficult to believe, given your long time interest

in pinch, that you have not, at some point, enveloped a

barbell plate with one hand and raised it off the floor. I

am guessing that the amount was not 200+ pounds.

[Guest 86-1005097353]

Hi, Joe.

I consider you to be a fair-minded person and respect your considered opinion.

David Horne will only be standing next to my machine if he has paid for an expensive air ticket to Sydney. He won't do that unless he has a reason to be in Sydney. Therefore, he won't be standing next to my machine unless he wants to have a go and establish a new world record on it.

I have a gym full of barbell plates. However, I seldom lift barbells except to squat. I wish I had a gym without barbells and the enthusiasts who use them! Gym owners will understand my remarks.

What I am saying, Joe, is that I am not proficient in pinching those blasted plates and see no reason for me to do so. I have done a proper pinch grip and that is that. Barbell pinching, especially 2 X 45 will unlikely be a pinch event because there are very few people who can lift them.

I am stating, as a fact, that pinching on my machine is a very specialized event and there is little or no transfer to other pinching apparatus. I wish it were so! I really do.

In fairness to me I do not see the NECESSITY to pinch anything else to prove that I already pinched over 200 pounds without any grip aid. That is a good achievement. I have no doubt at all that now that the machine is known there will arrive supermen to excel and set new records on that machine. Good for anyone who can do that.

I am afraid the specificity of training on that machine results in being good on it and not on the other grip events. I can assure you it is frustrating to me because I, too, would like to be able to demonstrate all round pinching ability.

[David Horne]

Vince,

If you were in the U.K. I would have definitely come and had a go, and hopefully reliqueshed you of your $500. Anyway, I don't. I've moved 70kg once with 2" discs and find the thought of 92.5k, well I don't know what to think. You have definitely lifted this weight on this machine, and I have been thinking about how you did it. I would have believed that using stainless steel would have been even tougher. Then I thought about the hand cleaning; maybe with a hand that has been washed it has more of suction? If you have been in the bath a long time the skin on the hands has more suction, something about the skin absorbing water. Also do you pull sideways, so that the weak thumb is negated? Tell me what you think. Maybe Nick will come if he has time between filming.

David

[Tom Black]

Vince,

I for one have never doubted that you pinched 203.5-pounds on your pinch machine.  From what I remember about all the posts, I don't think anyone else doubts it either.  They just can't relate to the machine.   You said, "I do not need others to accept it to know it was a good feat," but I really think others have accepted it.  The real issue is, at least to me, is the relationship between your pinch and other pinches.  

   You said, "My belief is that even in pinch gripping all events are not comparable. Those who do pinch gripping will know this."   Really?  I have done all types of pinch gripping.  I've done:

1) 2" wide plates with a rod through the center for extra weights.

2) Standard Olympic plates

3) Real wide Olympic plates (3.5 inch Hampton plates)

4) A piece of wood about the size of a deck of cards

5) The Ironmind Pinch block.

6) The Ironmind hub.

7) A hub on an Olympic plate.

8) 3" wide and 3.75" wide blocks of wood.

    I do pinch gripping, I do not specialize, and my opinion, based on much experience with the various types of pinching is that the events are comparable.  I can go for weeks not pinching the 2" wide plates but doing things like hub lifting or even thick bar training (related as well) and go back to the 2" wide plates and pull my record with a week or two of training.  For instance, I didn't try my card sized block of wood for almost a year once and went from 70-pounds to 120-pounds!  Anybody can make one of those blocks of wood and see how they compare to me, it is not really an option for people to make one of your machines.  The other exercises obviously carried over, and I don't see why this strength wouldn't translate to your stainless steel plate. Alternatively, I don't see why training on the plates wouldn't translate to a big pinch lift somewhere else.  

Perhaps more importantly, if training on the machine does not translate into a conventional pinch lift on plates then what is the purpose of the machine?  Or how about phone book tearing, a feat that I feel is closely related to pinch gripping?  I've torn a ~2" phonebook the hard way, from the top edge.  My pinch grip strength translated to something that people understand as a real feat of strength.  I've bent 5"x1/4" cold rolled steel bars, but people are much more impressed by bending a much easier 60-penny nail.  Why?  Because the nail is something that people can understand and relate to.

[Guest 86-1005097353]

Hi David and Tom,

I respect both of you for the feats you have done. I have stated the obvious that David is in a league of his own re many grip events. AND pinch gripping. Nick is up there and I imagine a few others might be close. No one had heard about me before so who knows who is out there and what they can do.

I have been giving this pinch grip business a lot of thought and it has occurred to me that my machine tests the purest kind of pinching. You don't have to tilt or manage the plates or moveable block in any way. There must be plenty of other muscles recruited to do most pinch events. That is why there is so little transfer to the other events. Something like this has to be the explanation. It remains to be seen how much transfer there is to my machine from training done on other apparatus or plates.

David, when you have your hands in water I believe the water leaves the hand and that is why they become wrinkled. What you are getting at might be true because a softer, more malleable hand might have more surface area and therefore help one lift more weight. I am not sure about this one. The other theory is that the softer hand acts more like many suction cups.

When we compare two people who have similar hands and are both washing their hands the same way and number of times then whoever lifts the most must be doing so because of applying more power. The hand still has to lift that weight.

I am not aware of pulling the plate to one side towards the body but that could be happening. There is almost no bending of the apparatus. There are two one inch linear motion bearings in the top plate that the shafts run through. I designed the machine so that friction was virtually elimated. At least most friction is reduced. I'd love to have you out to inspect the machine and train on it.

David, thank you for your post. It means a lot to me that you say what you do. Not the removing me of $500, but your post demonstrates that you are a true sportman and champion.

Tom, your feats are outstanding. One day I would love to meet you and try bending a few nails together. I haven't tried that since 1970. I am sure you must be one of the best in the business. Yes, bending shorter nails is surely a tougher feat. I found those thicker nails a challenge. I recall bending a 7 inch X 5/16th inch thick nail. However, I am not positive about the dimensions.

I am sure we would have a blast if all of us met. I'd love to see someone close one of those number 3's.