"high Volume"

[Zevich]

Concerning high volume I would like to ask a question. Is high volume your TOTAL

amount of hand training such as counting all of the reps if you are doing crush, pinch, bending, or support training for a time period ( a week for example) using different grip tools? Or high volume per time period using only grip tools for crush only? I believe it will be two different answers. Thanks for any comments.

[JasonL]

Note I doubt someone could squat with weight all day. The hands are different IMO.

Didn't Paul Anderson squat muliple times a day????? Singles though I am sure

Now if that was a good set of 20 rep squats, doubt it

I guess one has to find what works for them, which can take a while

JasonL

[Jedd Johnson]

If we difine it as a X number of singles fo X number of days it could be misleading and have the potential for creating more injuries. For example, let's say we use a benchmark of 20 singles a day for more than 4 days/wk. If we say you haven't reached High Volume until you've reached this level or higher, a new guy who jumped into it could injure themselves.

If we in all of our experience and grip experience can achieve a definition for new guys that doesn't say a certian number of singles/reps has to be achieved I think we'll be on the right track.

High Volume is so different when tailored to individuals and what they are training.

KTA is one approach, and if followed correctly one shouldn't get injured aside from skin injuries which we are not really concerned about.

Hammer, good explanation. I fully understand. Thanks.

[Digdogz]

Heres the cliche,

Newbie comes on the board and loves those grippers, they squeeze and squeeze them till the #1 goes down, then they can't close it for a while and they wonder why? They then ask advise from the vets of the board, 'slow it down', 'take a break' and 'try something different for a while'. All these are answers anyone will give but this is also the beginnings of the learning process for the new gripster.

If they take the advice to heart, as I always did, and experiment with what they are capable of and what their body can handle then the route to a strong grip, without injury, is forthcoming to them.

I define 'high volume' as maxing out many times a week on your goal weights/grippers etc. and then breaking off from this routine when your body tells you to do so, faliure to recognise your bodies need to recupperate will lead to pointless ailments and pain. I think this comes from an intimate knowledge of your bodies abilities that is only gained through experience and hard slog.

I had at least two years of forearm specific training under my belt before I got into Grip for real. I think this backbone of training helped me through the early stages of grip related training and once I was over the 'hand-soreness' I could attempt 'high-volume' without any lasting pain and/or injuries.

I have suffered cuts, bruises, pain, twinges, aches, gashes, rips, tears, blisters and 'Ghost pains'!

All I have healed from and all have meant a stronger grip in the end. I think I just know when to stop.

I am onto the #3 and one day hope to be a Mash Monster. My training routines for these goals will vary and change until the beasty gets shut. This will involve high-volume/low volume/complete rest and faliure but they will all combine to get me there.

To summerise,

My advise to a newbie when starting looking into what 'High-Volume Training' is would be to start by doing 'High-Volume Research' into grip training and all that this board and its archives have to offer.

I always did this and only asked when I couldn't find it out for myself.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink"

In this world some were born to learn the hard way, through ignorance or sometimes through choice, either way.....They Learn Something!

Jedd is right that correct advice should be available to all newbies who frequent the site. For me it has been here since day one and by listening to it and taking heed of what I was being told my goals have come to fruitition.

Always learning,

Digz.

[Bill Piche]

O lifters tend to workout several times per day, but they are usually missing one aspect of a lift - the negative.

[Davekline]

I think this topic is highly subjective and individual. This has to do with the fact that "high" is a qualitative term, not a quantitative term. "High" is also a relative term. It is reletive to the individual doing the training.

So on the last analysis, I feel that my original definition of high volume training was the best.

High Volume Training: (noun) An occurance that causes the neighbors to call the cops with a noise complaint. This usually results in the workout being interupted.

[Rikus_Khan]

I am not sure if "To Failure" counts as "High Volume" or not. I usually train to failure.

I make the biggest gripper I have click as fast as possible and as much as I can (right now maybe 2). Then I will hold it as close as I can until right before I start to cry . Then I repeat with the next one down the list and continue until I cry wih the Trainer. If I had some smaller ones I would grab them next.

I wait a bit and then grab my hammers and start twisting. My hammers are made from dumbells so after I have twisted until I can't bring my thumb side up anymore I take off a wieght and twist some more removing weight until I have trouble twisting the just the bar.

Like I said this is more of "To Failure" than "High Volume" as this might not take me 30 minutes to do and my arms are mush until the next day. Usually I will want to train some more but cannot do much good so I will go do some bench presses or lat pulls with one hand. My lat pulls I have configured to do with grip as as well. My weight machine came with a little canvas wrap to use on your ankles for side extensions. I put that on the hook holding the lat bar and just grab it and pull down. Work biceps and grip .. although after what I did it works grip more as I can't pull much down to work biceps with .. but they get some.

Anyway ... you tell me is this High Volume?

Edited April 28, 2004 by Rikus_Khan

[JasonL]

O lifters tend to workout several times per day, but they are usually missing one aspect of a lift - the negative.

They don't need it, since they are training mainly for speed/strength more nervous system acitvation stuff......negatives used more for bulding size as well as strength yes/no????????

JasonL

[Landon]

O lifters tend to workout several times per day, but they are usually missing one aspect of a lift - the negative.

*sigh* They can workout several times per day because their work capacity is very high. Their intensity levels vary quite significantly throughout the day/week/months/etc. - and don't train at the HIGH intensity some people on this board claim they do day in and day out.

Taking away the slow eccentric movement (negative) is not even INCORPORATED into a O lifters regimen. They are very reactive, explosive athletes that rely greatly on elastic strength, which negatives play no part in. They squat with a fast plio, and react fast in the miometric (positive) elastically, then muscularly. No slow movements involved, unless weights that are being lifted are above their maximal strength-speed weights.

They don't need it, since they are training mainly for speed/strength more nervous system acitvation stuff......negatives used more for bulding size as well as strength yes/no????????

They train for strength-speed, not speed-strength. Look at force-velocity curves that look at weightlifting. Nervous system activation? Everything we do is NS activated. Weightlifting simply requires the greatest amount of CNS activation, hence the reason why strength coaches that utilize Weightlifting movements into their athletes programs have them as the first movement of the day, or right after their reactive movements (plyometrics - which activate the CNS even more). Also because if the CNS is fatigued from other exercies, the rate of injury increases since there is so many degrees of freedom that an athlete has to maintain, and that is hard in a fatigued state.

Yes, negatives are used by some individuals who train for hypertrophy, and some strength athletes even use them in overload techniques.

****

Setting a standard is typical for people to do. Setting a standard rep, set, intensity levels, volumes, etc is pointless. What needs to happen besides setting a broad definition what a high-volume workout is, simply educate the importance of rest, restoration methods, training frequency, etc. No coach/forum member/etc can tell a "newbie" what they should do. They can simply give a few pushes down the right road, but they eventually have to leave the dependance of forum members, and other influential training people, and find out what works for them. Very good/Elite coaches DO know what is the best (typically) for athletes because they have been around the athlete for quite some time, monitored nearly ever parameter out there, and they know how to prescribe a training program to effectively attack the deficiences, and auto-regulate for the individual (athlete).

Hell Jedd, you've talked to Jim Wendler. I know he's an individual who understands standards mean nothing, but educating individuals on training principles/protocols/methods/etc is the way.

[Meat Loaf]

Well sorry to say, I'm not gonna sound as smart as everyone else cause i have a simple comment (and I'm too freakin tired to type all the dang proper punctuation). I think that these grip guys who do nothing but grip work all day long can RECOVER from more volume (versus guys like myself who do weightlifting/powerlifting exercises that also put lots of strain on the grip) because their bodies don't need to put their recuperative powers into their whole bodies...their bodies can just focus on healing the hands.

I know rick walker is a volume guy and he ALSO does some weightlifting, but as far as i know, he concentrates on the grip stuff and the whole body lifting is secondary. Me, i find that my grip is tired after my workouts (cause i do really heavy negatives and holds that strain my wrists a lot too), especially after 3 hours of oly lifting (yanking weights for hours).

Is this logical?

MEAT

p.s.

[Bill Piche]

They train for strength-speed, not speed-strength.

Since when do muscles have brains to know when they are lifting a barrel, versus a barbell, versus a machine let alone know that "Hey, I am not being excercised for speed-strength." "Ooops, now I am being exercised for strength-speed."

I'd like an explanation at the muscle level how the muscle knows this?

[Davekline]

Since when do muscles have brains to know when they are lifting a barrel, versus a barbell, versus a machine let alone know that "Hey, I am not being excercised for speed-strength." "Ooops, now I am being exercised for strength-speed."

I'd like an explanation at the muscle level how the muscle knows this?

Fundamentally resistance is resistance. Whether that resistance is provided by a barrel, dumbbell, hammer, Nautilus machine, or other implement or device is not so critical. As long as the resistance can be applied in a progressive mannor to the muscles being trained, the source of the resistance is not that critical.

Resistance most often comes from the gravitational field, i.e. the weight of objects being lifted. Other sources of resistance include electromagnetic force used in "Life Fitness" and other such machines and mechanical energy stored in springs, bands or grippers.

[Landon]

They train for strength-speed, not speed-strength.

Since when do muscles have brains to know when they are lifting a barrel, versus a barbell, versus a machine let alone know that "Hey, I am not being excercised for speed-strength." "Ooops, now I am being exercised for strength-speed."

I'd like an explanation at the muscle level how the muscle knows this?

Bill,

Don't quote me by not even relating back what what I said in the same context of the explanation I gave.

Speed-strength(explosiveness/reactiveness/etc) and Strength-speed(power) are VERY significantly different.

speed-strength: low resistance, very high to high velocity i.e. squat jumps

strength-speed: moderate resistance, moderate to high velocity i.e. snatch - hence the power output from olympic lifters is huge. Ever seen power output of a jerk? Thats strength-speed (power).

Force velocity curves will show this very clearly if you just look for yourself.

[tspinillo]

Don't quote me by not even relating back what what I said in the same context of the explanation I gave.

Speed-strength(explosiveness/reactiveness/etc) and Strength-speed(power) are VERY significantly different.

speed-strength: low resistance, very high to high velocity i.e. squat jumps

strength-speed: moderate resistance, moderate to high velocity i.e. snatch - hence the power output from olympic lifters is huge. Ever seen power output of a jerk? Thats strength-speed (power).

Force velocity curves will show this very clearly if you just look for yourself.

I have been doing "Westside" type training for my bench, utilizing

bands and chains on DE day. The DE speed work with the

bands has greatly contributed to my progress. Every

month has seen a strength gain (Since commencing Sep 2003).

T

[Dave H]

All I know is that I train with high-volume all the time, but it varies as to just what it means. Most of the time I do 20-rep sets in most everything, and I do 3-5 sets! I use the heaviest possile weight I can in that movement. For instance, my 20-rep weight in the EZ-curl is 100 pounds. DB wrist-curls = 100 pounders, and BB Wrist-curls is = 150. All for 20-reps. Every now-and-then I will go to 120 in the Ez-curl, and raise the weight in the other movements as well. That will bring the reps down in the 10-12 range, but I just do more sets. That's the way I have always trained. I do this with everything. That's what high-volume means to me. But with the grippers, I just do tons of singles mostly. High reps with a light gripper did nothing for me as far as helping me get through my #3. I had to do many, many singles with that gripper, and negs with the #4. I did this twice a week.

But I also know how to use rest days. For me, rest days just means I am getting stronger. Stressed muscles and tendons get stronger while resting and rebuilding. That's why I have never been afraid to take small breaks. I always come back refreashed and stronger than ever.

Get it while you can. Hit it hard! Rest when you have too, and get strong. That's the way I see it. And just pay attention to what your body is telling you. If it says, "Hey, I can handle more weight tonight. Let's go for it!" Than by all means, do it! If it is saying, "Hey, I'm a little tired tonight. I had a rough day at work and the hard workouts are piling up. I need to take it easy tonight." Then take it easy. If it tells you to take a night off and let something recuperate, then do it. You can't go wrong training like that. Keep it fun! Don't make it a chore and get to the point where you are all beat up and can't sleep, can't work and are thinking about not lifting anymore. Never get to that point! Do what you have to do to keep it fun. Even if others don't agree with what you are doing. If it works for you, and you're having fun...Go for IT!

Sixgun

[Jedd Johnson]

Setting a standard is typical for people to do. Setting a standard rep, set, intensity levels, volumes, etc is pointless. What needs to happen besides setting a broad definition what a high-volume workout is, simply educate the importance of rest, restoration methods, training frequency, etc. No coach/forum member/etc can tell a "newbie" what they should do. They can simply give a few pushes down the right road, but they eventually have to leave the dependance of forum members, and other influential training people, and find out what works for them. Very good/Elite coaches DO know what is the best (typically) for athletes because they have been around the athlete for quite some time, monitored nearly ever parameter out there, and they know how to prescribe a training program to effectively attack the deficiences, and auto-regulate for the individual (athlete).

Hell Jedd, you've talked to Jim Wendler. I know he's an individual who understands standards mean nothing, but educating individuals on training principles/protocols/methods/etc is the way.

These are good points. I think my original idea of defining high volume is an arduous task with limited return on investment. After all, high volume, is a relative term that is going to mean a different number for everyone.

What about this though...what if we institute something like this...

TOP VOLUME A volume of training in which the trainee reaches 95% and above of his/her own current high volume training abilities. Example given - I have accepted for myself that my high volume training consists of working on the IM 3's that I have, followed by moving up on a couple squeezes of the BBSE, a couple on the IM 4, moving back to the IM 3, the going into overcrushes and BTR's with lighter grippers. Maybe 20 reps if I'm lucky. (That's a half freakin' hour for me, which seems like an awful long time for crush, to me right now, but anyway....) If I get to (.95 * 20 = 19) 19 reps, then I am at 95 %. If Rick normally does 100 reps per day, then (.95 * 100 = 95). So he reaches Top Volume, only if he does at least 95 reps. Whether he reaches TOP VOLUME or not, though, I don't think there's anyone who's going to say that 50 and up on both hands isn't "high volume." After all, he is the Volume Slut.

Now, I have to ask, is my TOP VOLUME proposal acceptable? I think it is.

Do you all feel it is better to move toward use of this or a similar term instead just saying "Ah yeah, man - High Volumes the only way to go, man. Destroy those hands, man.....," without mentioning any current numbers to show potential for the trainee's given experience? I think it is.

Do you think that if we make it a standard practice to describe our varying levels of "High Volume" routines as TOP VOLUME (different for individual trainees) that down the road that definition will help out new trainees? I do.

Is 95% the way to go? Would 90% be better? I can't decide.

Again, I would like to keep this open to all opinions, with constructive comments, please.

(Sorry I have not been keeping this going. I have been stumbling for my next response and wanted to refine it again.)

-Jedd-

[jad]

[

TOP VOLUME A volume of training in which the trainee reaches 95% and above of his/her own current high volume training abilities. -Jedd-

Jedd, I like the idea of top volume, 90%, 95%, whatever but how does the newbie determine what the base number is? How does he know what his high volume training abilities are? How does he know whether he's teetering toward tendonitis and should lay off or whether the pain is just normal for high volume training? You mentioned 20 reps is high volume for you, so on days you perform 19 reps you're still doing top volume but how does the newbie know where to start? The top volume idea is great but I think we need to come up with some parameters that will let the newbie determine what their base number is. I have no idea how we would set those parameters or more specifically what we would base them on. They would need to be fairly universal as pain tolerances, skin toughness, amount of previous grip training(manual laborers), etc... would vary quite a bit from gripster to gripster. If you mentioned a base number somewhere and I missed it, my appologies.

Josh

[Bill Piche]

I think we are now at the point over analyzing the whole thing. Maybe we were at the point before.

New trainees need to do their homework.

I'll continue to use high volume as a term. It generally means a "lot" and if people can't ask the questions or know it's all *relative* then they need to take up watching the grass grow instead of strength training.

The term high volume is not new to strength training.

Keep in mind, this is just my opinion so please no one take it personally. Thanks.

[Rick Browne]

I think we are now at the point over analyzing the whole thing.  Maybe we were at the point before.

There`s "High Volume" and then there is ... "No Mans Land" grip training!

Eh Bill?

[Davekline]

I still think my own definition of "high volume" was the best.

[king crusher]

very intresting points have been made.

i dont ever think i will be as hardcore into grip as alot of you seem to be, i gained all my forearm and hand power from weight lifting, which is my #1 passion when it comes to power.

as far as the bleeding and all, i have to ask, why? for what purpose are you ruining your hands and cutting the "s" out of your hands.

thats to the point of obsession imo...but i absulutly am not talking that endevore down.

i wont get any books i wont even use chalk i dont know what setting is and dont really care, and i dont think that closing a gripper and opening it 1/4 to 1/2 an inch is "repping it".

i dont even use a specific workout for gripping.

i go by how i feel. im just over 1/4 inch on my 3 and can do my 2 for 13 full reps my 1 for around 50 reps and trainer for 75 or so.

i would like to get on the coc for the number 3!!!!

i herd someone talk about straps for weightlifting.....i contribute almost all my arm/hand stregth to NEVER useing straps, or belts.....unless you want weak hands/wrists and weak lower back.

ok my .02 cents.....like i said i respect everyones training and have used ideas from some of you! rock on.

[Patrik_F]

For me, personally, I have found that frequency is much more important than actual volume. The nervous system needs constant stimulation and not exhaustion for best results. My experience. Although when you train only for more muscle mass without peak lifting capability, I believe it is best to train to absolut failure with longer recovery times between workouts.

[bencrush]

I tend to base my view of "high volume" on the level of the gripper or difficulty of stock I'm bending. If it's a near-max bend or gripper and I total 10 reps or more...I consider it high volume.

As an example, a filed BB Master is relatively easy for me to close. I only consider it high volume if I total 100 or more reps with it. Same with a #2. It would probably take 200 or more total reps on a #1 for me to consider it high volume. And 300 or more on a Trainer. Not very scientific at all...just blabbing on and on.

[bencrush]

Sorry...2 posts?

[jad]

I tend to base my view of "high volume" on the level of the gripper or difficulty of stock I'm bending. If it's a near-max bend or gripper and I total 10 reps or more...I consider it high volume.

This is a good point. I've been trying new routines lately and I do something similiar in that I use the #2 and TT's for reference points. For example, at the end of my crush workout if I can barely close my #2 RH then I know I"m done. When I can still close it with ease but my hands are too dead to get any more good negative crushes, I'll do some no-set work with it. Getting back to Jedd's original topic, maybe if the newbie had a so-called reference gripper they could gauge themselves before they trained into injury.