Big Steve Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 High volume is the best way I have found to get a great base for an over all strong hand. I like to go weeks and weeks killing anything I can. Bloody fingers and blistered palms are a good sign that you are doing high volume. Go until you can not go anymore. Go till the trainer feels like a WC. The funny thing is volume is not what hurts people. The healing between workouts or should I say the lack of, is what hurts most. Once you break down your hands you have to work hard in getting them healed before the next day or next workout. Example: I will do around 40 to 50 bends on my bending days, then do hub lifts, wrist curls, and maybe thumb. I know that in less then 12hrs I have KTA, card ripping (up to 20 decks sometimes) and more hub at work. I need to get the heat out of my hands. I have got my hands to where just running them under cold water for about 3 mins each will help big time. One of the best things after this is to stretch all the time pulling and pushing the bad stuff out of your joints and fibres. Get two steel balls or even golf balls and put them in your pocket and roll them about a hundred times each hand when you are having some down time. Keeping your hands moving, the blood moving the junk out. This enables me to do more for longer periods of time. Since I started this all the time stretching and rolling right after my workouts injuries have been zero and power has been more and has stayed longer. The only down fall to high volume for me is that it takes about 20 mins for me to get warmed up. It's was like that when I did marthons too, it would take 5 miles to get to where I felt good. I think my body is not normal sometime. But I do know it is very blessed! Do what your body can stand is high volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bballdad Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Good post Big Steve! You ought to write a book on high volumn training!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocksurly Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 I use chinese exercise balls and find they are great for helping your hands recover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted April 25, 2004 Author Share Posted April 25, 2004 At any rate-high volume for me is training 6 days a weeks, and doing each session until I cannot physically do it any more. For grippers, that may mean 100 reps. For pinch, that means starting out pinching a 45 and a 35 together, and doing it until I cant pinch 2-25s any longer.I do 50-100 reps each day with my training in what ever I do with my hands. Whether this kind of an example is necessary or not, it is DEFINITELY high volume. Rick also gives a variety of values, like fedaykin suggests: Volume: 50-100 reps a day Frequency: 6 days a week Intensity: Until he can no longer accomplish a rep Okay, we've got an example to star from. Smitty brings up another good point, in that numbers are relative, which can make this discussion difficult to continue out. However, I would still like to introduce a number and see what everyone thinks. Would it be fair, using Rick's example, to say that 50 reps would be the beginning cut-off for "high volume?" -Jedd- P.S. I can see some editing has taken place in this thread. I was not on the board last night. If someone is getting sensitive about this discussion, I invite you to email or PM me. And my phone number is in my signature, so have at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 If we used 50 reps(I'm assuming per week, not per day like Rick, if we are still talking 6 days per week), as the cut-off how would you handle the intensity portion? For example, if the newbie is a #2 closer, and hears severe negatives are the way to go and performs 50 severe negatives with the #3 he could still be headed for trouble as opposed newbie "B" who is also a #2 closer and performs 25 goal attempts on a SM, 15 strap holds with the #2, and 10 OC's with the #1. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Browne Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Jedd, You have put forth an excellent topic for discussion. I would not beat myself up over certain parts of posts being edited. Stay the course on the topic you have started. My view of this high volume discussion, ( I believe in high volume for hands) should include load variations. Joe Kinney always stated "More reps or more weight" every workout. Speaking of high load, Kinney would go as high as 385lbs. on his plateloading grip machine for 60 reps ( actually done in a negative fashion) for each hand 1x per week. That amounts to 23,100 lbs of volume weight moved for each hand His next workout would be 60 negatives each hand using the #4..... High Volume/ High load....... I also believe that you can spread this amount of work over a 5-6 day period I firmly believe genetic potential plays a major role in being able to do this high volume and high load training to not only finish it, but also reap it`s benefits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonL Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 I would put more high volume more in frequency, more than volume for the day. Rick trains 50+ reps 6 days a week, but if he did that 3 days a week, I would not call that high volume. Well for grip anyways. Whats funny about grip work is that when your hands are beat up and your forarms are tried from all the work one puts into them and you think they are overtrained and then you pick up a gripper and mash it to death or pinch grip some big plates, just makes one wonder JasonL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Jed Good topic. I think as we know it has many variables,but lots of other factors must be considered,age,condition of person doing it,mental focus of person doing it,drug useage if any,genes etc. 1.Age We all soon find out that as we get older,we cannot shake of injuries like when we were younger,so we need to train smarter and wiser,this should help some people in incorporateing volume/high volume training as the longer one trains smarter and wiser the better foundation hopefully one has prepared for volume. Age will also have a bearing on the training frequency as when you are younger you should be able to train more frequently . 2.Condition/ing of person is a key piont,somebody that just starts training ,but has done manual labour for a number of years prior should be better equiped than a person who has been sedentary prior to training,altho ones genes will have an impact on this as we all know the freaks that have never lifted in there life yet lift something or do something that others need years of preparation for.An example Niam Solemoneglu(spelling)at age 12 clean and jerked his bodyweight 1st time he touched a weight and went onto be probably lb for lb the greatest olympic lifter ever,plus olympic lifting is all about volume and strength,his genes,mental focus,body etc all made him who he is. 3.Mental focus Some people are born champions,some people can become champions,some people will never have it no matter what,the body will not go anywere the mind has not been,or is not willing to go,what sets the people who can close *4,s bend REDS etc is there pain tolerance,all to do with the mind/mental focus these people had/have this from the start or can cultivate it over time,repetition breeds familiararity maybe through volume. 4.Drug use Is like the age equalizer it will allow people to train more often and recuperate quicker,does it have an effect on volume training,obviously. 5.Genes We can only do things with what we were given,we only get one body,so make the most of it,this as well as mental focus probably has the most affect on training,how many Solemonuglus(spelling)are there perhaps 1in a 1,000,000 who nows,they are sometimes born,they can be made,but we have to do it with what GOD gave us,how many can train with Kinneys ability,except for mumber 5.Maybe Joe has alot of each of the other numbers in abundance. On Finishing i think volume training is the way to go,but you must ease into it like KTA,and you cannot do at maximum strength for long,the higher to your 100% max you approach the less volume you can do,abit like asking Carl Lewis to sprint 1 mile,shure he can run/sprint a mile quite fast/but not at his 100 meters time,this will be affected by the persons genes,condition,age,drug use etc. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybersnott Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Speaking of high load, Kinney would go as high as 385lbs. on his plateloading grip machine for 60 reps ( actually done in a negative fashion) for each hand 1x per week. That amounts to 23,100 lbs of volume weight moved for each hand If you're describing his work on the Secret Weapon, this defies description!! I put 150 pounds on the SW and it nearly kills me. I can't imagine 385 pounds on that thing! Joe has to be the all-time king of hardcore grip training!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Browne Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 QUOTE (zcor @ Apr 25 2004, 01:03 PM) Speaking of high load, Kinney would go as high as 385lbs. on his plateloading grip machine for 60 reps ( actually done in a negative fashion) for each hand 1x per week. That amounts to 23,100 lbs of volume weight moved for each hand If you're describing his work on the Secret Weapon, this defies description!! I put 150 pounds on the SW and it nearly kills me. I can't imagine 385 pounds on that thing! Joe has to be the all-time king of hardcore grip training!! Actually Syber I was going by the plateloader he described in the latest COC book by Ironmind... It shows a pic of a Kinney with a guillotine type plateloader and he used language saying "You squeeze the weight up with 2 hands for the positive and let go of one hand and do a one hand negative". Kinney did not mention the SW in the book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slazbob Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Speaking of high load, Kinney would go as high as 385lbs. on his plateloading grip machine for 60 reps ( actually done in a negative fashion) for each hand 1x per week. That amounts to 23,100 lbs of volume weight moved for each hand If you're describing his work on the Secret Weapon, this defies description!! I put 150 pounds on the SW and it nearly kills me. I can't imagine 385 pounds on that thing! Joe has to be the all-time king of hardcore grip training!! I second that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAMMERHEAD Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 This is a good thread, loads of good info. It may be dangerous to actually define "High Volume." By defining it a new guy could injur himself just as easily if not easier. "High Volume" seems to be different for everybody. If you are used to doing say 50 singles with a SM over the course of a week. If you jump to 70 your body will say it's doin' High Volume regardless of definition. New guys are getting hurt attempting "High Volume" for a number of reasons. 1. They are "jumping" into it without "wading" in. You drastically increase your work load when you are already working near you maximum, you're increasing risk for injury. 2. Some guys don't have the right equipment. Let's say a guy is good for a couple singles on his #2 but the #3 is just a brick. He starts doin' tons o' negatives with his #3 (which is way beyond his current level of strength) trying High Volume. He's traveling down the road twoard injury. He should establish an intermediate goal by either using a grip machine or using a Tweener like the SM. 3. Here's a big reason people don't think High Volume works or why they get hurt. People who start their "High Volume" do their same workout day after day. Killin' themselves every day. They beat themselves to a bloody pulp every workout. If your gonna go with High Volume you gotta leave some gas in the tank. Think about it. The blacksmith swinging his hammer everyday isn't going so hard every day so that he can't swing his hammer anymore. He's got gas left in the tank at the end of each day. I'm sure there are other reasons but these are the big 3 that I see. High Volume can be killin' yourself twice/wk or going 6 days/wk not as hard. To all the new guys out there, (and I'm one of them) read old posts, and do your research. Ask informed questions when you can't find the answers. Trust me it works. Good luck Jedd trying to find this "holy grail." I don't know if this can actually be defined easily. -HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Any thing taken to a high level is going to cause some problems. Back when my arm was so sore I thought I had caused serious damage, Pat replied "business as usuall" when it comes to bending. Meaning, that is normal. I remember Pat telling me that some days he has to change his technique around to find where is doesnt hurt as bad just to bend. This reminds me of Kinney. Maybe this kind of intensity is required to be the best? There is only 1 kinney to date-no one else has closed a #4 the way he did. There is only 1 Pat to date. No one on earth can bend what he bends. Both men have trained through hardship, pain, and blood, only to come out on the other side the Kings of their chosen feat. People wine constantly about hand and forearm pain. I was once one of them. I truly now believe that the pain comes to pass and you come out the other side stronger. If you cant endure it-then you wont reach the other side. If you can-then you will. Recently I have torn cards until my hands were bloody and wrecked. I then tore another 4-5 decks after the point of agonizing pain. Now-I am a much better at tearing then I have even been. When this pec heals...I will get 3 decks. The webbing on my thumbs is destroyed. I pinch every single day, and super glue has become my friend. But, I notice that now the webbing splits and bleeds, but there is no more pain. I can continue to train even with blood. It is becoming thick with scar tissue. Soon-no matter how sharp the plates or block-i wont bleed. Maybe I am setting myself up for disfigurement and ultimate failure. Maybe Pat will be crippled as an old man from his intensity. Or, maybe we will both keep getting stronger. Only time will tell. From what I have seen from Big Steve, Pat, and others, I will continue to train on a higher level. Rick Walker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted April 25, 2004 Author Share Posted April 25, 2004 Soon-no matter how sharp the plates or block-i wont bleed. Are you serious, Rick? That's a little steep. You are saying that your skin is going to be impervious to slices from some of the sharpest plates. I've seen some that were like razorblades. Come on now. It seems to me from the examples that the people have given of their high volume workouts, that they shoot to cause pain in their bodies and damage their skin tissue in order, perhaps, for the body to adapt. Some people call this the "Adapt or Die" principle. While I agree that the muscles and tissues in the hands' musculature can tolerate a lot of high intensity stimulation and come back strong in a day or two, when does the grip trainee leave the area of regular/moderate volume and enter into the realm of high volume? There has to be some guideline, or boundary, but I have a hard time believing that torn skin and tendonitis is one of them. In short, given the fact that "High Volume" is relative to the trainee, what can we identify as that marker of established high volume training? Let's keep this going. -Jedd- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted April 25, 2004 Author Share Posted April 25, 2004 I will do around 40 to 50 bends on my bending days, then do hub lifts, wrist curls, and maybe thumb. I know that in less then 12hrs I have KTA, card ripping (up to 20 decks sometimes) and more hub at work. I need to get the heat out of my hands. I have got my hands to where just running them under cold water for about 3 mins each will help big time. Steve, I have a question for you. How much time do you dedicate to your workouts for your volume? It is undoubtably high. Plus, how have you altered your training in light of your tweeked shoulder? Perhaps these details can help us to see how an experienced bender of your talent has adjusted his training over time, how he has crossed into new territories of "High Volume." Also, could you go into more detail on your frequency? You said you finish a bending workout and then 12 hours later you have KTA. Do I understand you correctly that you train in the mornings and at night? What hub lifting do you do at work? Your volume seems very high. No doubt your hands need a good cool-down, as you describe. Thanks. -Jedd- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Are you serious, Rick? That's a little steep. You are saying that your skin is going to be impervious to slices from some of the sharpest plates. I've seen some that were like razorblades. Come on now. I am very serious. Case in point-when doing high volume gripper work, my hands dont rip open like they used to. They still ache, but the skin is tougher now. Much less tearing and bleeding. Believe what you will. I do think the skin can callous over to where they no longer can be pierced by plates. Knives are a different story... Rick Walker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted April 25, 2004 Author Share Posted April 25, 2004 It may be dangerous to actually define "High Volume." By defining it a new guy could injur himself just as easily if not easier.Hammerhead, could you go into more detail for this statement. I am not quite following you. I was thinking that a definition of high volume would help the new trainees. Thanks.The blacksmith swinging his hammer everyday isn't going so hard every day so that he can't swing his hammer anymore. He's got gas left in the tank at the end of each day. I totally agree with you Hammerhead. The blacksmith works 8 to 12 hours a day swinging and honing, yet can tolerate it. Brookfield has suggested that these men have some of the best grips on earth, and I do not doubt him. But is his high volume the same as Rick's or Steve's. If they are not, what are the differences. Plenty of avenues for discussion in this thread. I'm eager to hear what you all have to say. -Jedd- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 I totally agree with you Hammerhead. The blacksmith works 8 to 12 hours a day swinging and honing, yet can tolerate it. Note I doubt someone could squat with weight all day. The hands are different IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Black Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 Good thread Jedd, you are keeping it going nicely. Frequently when discussing high volume grip training the topic of pain tolerence is encountered. The trouble for the newbie is that pain tolerence and high volume are seemingly tightly coupled. Herin lies the danger. While it's certainly true that for many gripsters there is a slight amount of pain involved with high volume training, that is not the goal of the training. Nor is it necessary. The goal of high volume training is certainly to push ones self to the brink, but within reason. I seldom see the word moderation used when discussing high volume training of any kind. A critical prerequisite for high intensity training, regardless of methodology, is to know ones limits. To push the envelope and not run the risk of injury the trainee must already have a sound understanding of the difference between extreme discomfort and injury. I don't even like to use the word "pain" for fear of adding to the confusion. Pusing through real pain will lead to injury. Perhaps not immediately, but eventually the body will break down and you will injure yourself. If you don't believe this, you've yet to seriously injure yourself. The second danger area for the newbie is that "high volume" is subjective. As was stated earlier high volume should not be rushed into. KTA presents a good road map for starting a high volume routine. It's a pay product so I won't get in to details, suffice to say if you are interested in high volume it's a good place to start. That covers injury prevention, but what of my definition of high volume? I don't feel that laying out my frequency and set/rep scheme will do anything to define high volume. It would merely be an example of what is high volume for me at this point in my training. High volume, if done properly, should slowly be increasing over time. There is no magic number of sets/reps/frequency. Frequency, sets & reps are just training tools. Use them in a manner that places a progressively more demanding workload upon your hands and you are high volume training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Browne Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 I base a standard ( Numbers of reps etc) of high volume by someone whom has already traveled the road and experienced the trials and tribulations of success and or failure.. Joe Kinney is an inspiration to me for high volume/high load work in his own fashion...... Bill's (Wannagrip) theories showed me a different avenue of high volume work for the hands. Still though, you have to be patient and persevere through the rough times. Trial and error plays a role in my opinion as well. Some individuals clearly do not need high volume work to succeed... But it is fun to push your limits though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 i think its an individual thing. i would say doin somthing so much at you knat do it the next day is high. this amount would be differnt for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1perez Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 I also read somewhere that slim the hammerman used to work breaking stone with the sledgehammer's up to 14 hours per day in the hot scorching sun. Now if that's not high volume than what is?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjcocn Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 Okay, okay, before I start out let me be the first to point out that I am a newbie here and train alone so my observations and subsequent thoughts are not intended or expected to be a discussion-ender ...... just maybe a different perspective? Instead of trying to define volume with numbers of reps and/or sets, why not focus on the results of volume training? For instance, part of the way through my grip training I will begin to feel a pumping up of the muscles. Then, after a while I will feel my tendons and ligaments as they begin to feel sore. A while after that, they begin to ache and my knuckles begin to feel like they will pop out if I keep on going (they haven't yet, tho). Another while after that and it hurts to open or close my empty hands. So we have: 1. Pump 2. Tendons/Ligaments sore 3. Tendons/Ligaments ache 4. Knuckles hurt 5. Pain in hands while resting To use the above as an example, would it not be safe to say that a high volume is one that takes a gripster to one of these levels (or a "higher" level for vet gripsters)? My point being that measuring in this manner allows one to gauge their volume based on their own feeling, and also allows them to adjust their definition of volume as their training progresses. ..... and the verdict is? ...... Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAMMERHEAD Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 Jedd: When I stated that defining "High Volume" could be dangerous and invite injury to the new gripster I ment how we decide to define it. If we difine it as a X number of singles fo X number of days it could be misleading and have the potential for creating more injuries. For example, let's say we use a benchmark of 20 singles a day for more than 4 days/wk. If we say you haven't reached High Volume until you've reached this level or higher, a new guy who jumped into it could injure themselves. If we in all of our experience and grip experience can achieve a definition for new guys that doesn't say a certian number of singles/reps has to be achieved I think we'll be on the right track. High Volume is so different when tailored to individuals and what they are training. KTA is one approach, and if followed correctly one shouldn't get injured aside from skin injuries which we are not really concerned about. Currently, I'm working 2 day/wk. Each workout I add 5 heavy neagatives, starting with 5. By the time I reach 20 I add weight and drop back to 5 negatives with the new weight. My hands are pretty much always sore and I'm improving. Am I doing "High Volume"? One could argue either way. Some days my hands are insisting that I'm doing High Volume. Any new guy who wants to use High Volume should read this thread. Mabey, if we ever reach a consensus this should be put in the FAQ section. -HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianders1 Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 Guys, You'll notice my new signature - I believe that Kinney and you guys are really incredible with the enthusiasm and incredibly hard work you put into your grip training. I don't think that I could ever do that kind of volume, but you guys have to same determination that any top level athlete has, and I'm impressed. Someone asked what could potentially happen to ones hands after years of "abuse", and tendonitis and arthritis aren't the worst thing that can happen - COMPLEX REGIONAL PAIN SYNDROME (CRPS) is it. It used to be called Reflex Sympathetic Disorder (RSD) and I nearly succumbed to it. I still have it in some ways - my hands are still constantly swollen and red, but it's some bad, crippling sh!t that you'll want to watch out for. I'm not saying any of you guys have this or will get it, but it's worth knowing about: http://www.canadianrsd.com/whatis.html on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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