Jedd Johnson Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 Since, day one, all I've heard about was "high volume" for grip training. I've realized over the last couple of months that I really have no idea what that is. I suppose it is possible that the term "high volume" could have been originated with the advent of KTA, but (1) I wasn't on this board when it came out, and (2) I do not own a copy of KTA. I've come to notice that almost everybody's "high volume" definition is different. In fact, some people's "high volume" doesn't even come close to the volume that Smitty and I use. With that said, we couldn't hold a candle to others, especially along the lines of bending. I would like to propose a discussion on what exatly is a guideline measure for high volume training when it comes to working the grip. I just feel that, "Well this workout IS high volume for ME!" isn't a good enough excuse anymore. I've heard members talk about their "high volume" with much gusto, then, new untrained members to the board try and jump into a "high volume" routine themselves and get hurt. I think I am guilty of this as much as anybody. I partially feel responsible for mis-guiding at least one individual on another forum by not being specific enough with volume related guidance, causing them to have a very serious hand injury. Frankly, I'm getting tired of fresh new athletes on the board complaining of tendonitis, which might be a result of this undefined "high volume" training. I have been thinking about this a lot lately, and I think we who have more experience in this game can really help other athletes down the road avoid problems if we work to hone this definition right now. While all of this might have already been said and could easily be collected by doing a search over the entire board, most people just don't do that. I invite you all, the experienced, to contribute to this thread to (1) define "high volume" training to get a concensus definition, and (2) prevent injuries for new trainees down the road. Thanks. -Jedd- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 Jedd- I have noticed you are pretty damn critical lately. You need to relax At any rate-high volume for me is training 6 days a weeks, and doing each session until I cannot physically do it any more. For grippers, that may mean 100 reps. For pinch, that means starting out pinching a 45 and a 35 together, and doing it until I cant pinch 2-25s any longer. I do 50-100 reps each day with my training in what ever I do with my hands. Rick Walker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 Interesting issue Jedd ! How many exercises are done ? Many "newbies" work only with grippers for example. When i begun i could not do more than two workouts a week with 10-20 singles a workout, and my hands were fried and sore (i even injured my left hand). It was the highest possible volume for me and i was only training with grippers. But I had never worked my hands before, and do not have a manual labor. Nowadays, if i only do grippers i know i can stand up to 200 singles/reps a week without getting injured. Those reps/singles being performed on a sub max gripper (SM and #2 since i can just close a #3 on a good day, and not per IM new rules). As far as bending is concerned :I bend around 30 nails a week, those nails being in the 70% range of my 1RM (around 250kgs). I consider it to be high volume because if i do more i tend to get injured. When i begun bending, 15 nails a week was more than enough to get very sore/injured. Maybe we could define high volume as a volume such that you couldn't do much more without getting injured or having sore hands all the time ? Just my own 0.0005 cents (i'm too lazy atm to think it over ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 Jedd, As far as working to hone the definition, I would suggest we come up with a benchmark first, so newbies know what to compare their training to. The benchmark could be KTA week 1 phase 1 or sub any training program you want in there, and that level or anything above would be considered high volume for the newbie. You could repeat the process for intermediate and advanced gripsters subbing different programs as your benchmarks. Maybe the different levels would prevent some of the injuries??? Just some thoughts I'm sure it would need a lot of refining to be implemented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Dax Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 As a newbie (with tendonitis! ) I would welcome this, along with some idea of what volume to start with. A rough idea when to increase to medium volume and on to high would be very helpful. Does volume on the grippers (presumably by reps/session or reps/week) get added onto pinch volume? Thanx Old Dax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 The problem is newbies jump in head first without taking the time to build up their volume over weeks and years for that matter. I term high volume going 6 days per week and 50-to over 100 singles in the 6 days. Rick is no doubt at the higher end of high volume IMO. Some people can stand more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 Just wanted to add that guys who work with their hands intensely can't tell their bosses "sorry, but I have to rest a couple days". They adapt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wood Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 So how much volume is necessary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 Do you think days in a row or number of singles is more important? For example Kinney performed something like 120 singles per hand but only worked out twice a week. Is this still high volume? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 So how much volume is necessary? It's obviously an individual thing that needs to be experimented with. The hands aren't like other body parts IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 Do you think days in a row or number of singles is more important? For example Kinney performed something like 120 singles per hand but only worked out twice a week. Is this still high volume? Yeah, that's still high volume in my book. Probably higher than most. I use 6 days due to the sheer time. Kinney used to do grip for hours if I am remembering correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybersnott Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 I've come to notice that almost everybody's "high volume" definition is different. In fact, some people's "high volume" doesn't even come close to the volume that Smitty and I use. With that said, we couldn't hold a candle to others, especially along the lines of bending. IMHO, "high volume" would be a high number of days per week training and/or a high number of reps/sets used each day of that training. Lots of grip newbies go too fast and do way too much when they get into grip training. This is when injuries happen. BTW, great topic Jedd!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 Lots of grip newbies go too fast and do way too much when they get into grip training. Yup, but an interesting fact is many can tolerate it. In fact, a lot can tolerate it. As long as they are working at an appropriate level of load. That's the caveat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybersnott Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 Yup, but an interesting fact is many can tolerate it. In fact, a lot can tolerate it. As long as they are working at an appropriate level of load. That's the caveat. Many CAN tolerate it, but those that can't get injured. That's what I'm pointing out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Van Weele Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 I think if you had the right amount of intensity and drive on set would be enough on something like a girp machine or grippers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 Yup, but an interesting fact is many can tolerate it. In fact, a lot can tolerate it. As long as they are working at an appropriate level of load. That's the caveat. Many CAN tolerate it, but those that can't get injured. That's what I'm pointing out. You are stating an absolute. Either they tolerate high volume right away or they get hurt. Not true. It's not an "either/or". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Van Weele Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 I've found I can't handle hard daily training which may be considered high volume to some. I don't do it because I can't make the best progress that way. Not becuase I get injured every time I do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 I have noticed you are pretty damn critical lately. You need to relax Rick, You were offended by this post??? After I read it, I thought he was just inquiring. After everyone's responses, seems like they thought that too? I believe that high volume is defined differently by different people. Can some people tolerate it better...yes....can some people do high volume everyday...maybe....is high volume the best way to go to make gains?...not for everyone.. Everyone is different...high volume is only 1 means to an end..there are several others... I believe Jedd is trying to pull together a definition, which in the end will have several criteria... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suterp Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 I think high volume can be defined as number of reps per week done with at least a certain amount of effort (e.g. only count reps done over 65% of 1RM). I'm not a grip expert, but I think the key to high volume training is building up to it in waves. Back off every once in a while to heal up and head off injuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 I've found I can't handle hard daily training which may be considered high volume to some. I don't do it because I can't make the best progress that way. Not becuase I get injured every time I do it. Exactly Matt. There is no absolute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedaykin01 Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 I feel like either I have or many people have a misconception. I have always thought of Volume to be the total number of reps/work done per unit of time. IE: Number of bends a session. Or crushes a week. As opposed to the number of times you workout per week. I have defined the number of times trained per week as frequency. How close to your maximum you are training at would be your intensity. So I see three factors to this: 1. Volume IE: 30 bends 2. Frequency IE: 2 times a week 3. Intensity IE: 80%of your 1RM or ~250lbs according to one person here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted April 24, 2004 Author Share Posted April 24, 2004 In this thread, I asked for help in defining a standard. I am trying to contribute to the value of the board. I'm tired of new people coming on saying their forearm or hands hurt because they're trying to mimic the programs of multi-year veterans. Plus, I've been through the pain of elbow tendonitis. It sucks and I don't want other people to go through it. I was lucky to head it off apparently, before it developed into what you had some 8 months or so ago. -Jedd- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedaykin01 Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 The reason I brought up the other two factors is best explained with a hypothetical situation. What happens when a NEWB comes here and decides he wants bend the red. He/she reads one of the programs you people do and copys it's volume. They are now doing 20 bends a day. Someone corrects them on the amount of volume. So they instead they do a 1RM bend every day for 7 days in a row and end up with a serious hand injury. What then? They corrected their volume but there is still a problem with the intensity/frequency that needs to be fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 I think John Wood has pointed out overall arm development and imbalances causing problems. I agree. If you are into high volume, definitely don't neglect all arm parts in the long run or you may run into problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty Posted April 24, 2004 Share Posted April 24, 2004 (edited) I agree with Fedaykin01 The definition of volume could include the criteria: Volume, Frequency, Intensity... But, everyone is different: new gripper, novice, elite, master veterans... The above criteria is subjective for all classes An open-ended definition can be created, but it can never be specific.... Edited April 24, 2004 by smitty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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