Culmination Of The Evolution

[David Horne]

Yes there are many good points here, and we are trying our best to get this event to be perfect. It has only been orchestrated as an event for the European contests and Challenges now for a very short period of time, and we are all definitely learning. There are no sports that have not had rule changes as they have evolved, this is fact. Of course as I've said before anyone can bend in whatever fashion they want to, but in contests and for these challenge bars there has to be rules. The new rules, whatever they may be, will be implemented in a couple of weeks time.

Train hard and have fun.

David

[Mikael Siversson]

Pat's obviously much more versatile than me, but in that particular bend of his I notice that his hands are in the same basic position as mine, though I recognize our techniques are not identical. I'm sure Pat will correct me if my observation is wrong.

I think there is a major difference between your and Pat's initial overhand bending. He keeps much of his hands on the bar and uses wrist strength to a much larger degree than you do. Bending is supposed to be a test of, above all, wrist strength. This it will be if we ban the use of a one piece cloth (which will effectively eliminate leverage gained by pulling on a cloth) and ban the use of padding thick and durable enough to withstand pushing at almost right angles. You have bent hard steel, not by years of hard wrist training, but by finding ways of using muscle-groups that are better tested in powerlifting and other sports. You have taken the wrong path (and others are following) by straying away from the original challenge of bending steel, using the strength in your wrists and hands.

[amaury]

1) In many styles used today, the upperbody strength CAN be involved VERY SOON during the bend. But as you may remember Mikael ( ) i still advocate that the double overhand style at waist level involves mainly wrist strength. I don't think shortening the rag is a solution : it would just favour those that have toughen up their hands to a greater level.

2) The chest-crush will always involve the chest muscles but at least we could make a rule to allow it only when a certain angle has been achieved during the kink. The kink would then have to be performed with a style that mainly involves wrist strength.

3) I think that the weaver stick is a much better way to test wrist strength than bending : not very hard to learn the technique and no pb with variations in material strength.

In fact i don't see bending just as wrist strength test : bending shows what a human being can bend using only his hands as a vice, nothing more, nothing less. Of course it CAN be used as a wrist strength test but it will never be as good a test as the weaver stick (for example) as i mentionned above.

[the swiss]

I think that it is almost impossible for a judge to seperate a "wrist-bend" from a "non-wrist bend".

Either we test "bending" strength, regardless of style, or we test pure wrist strength, and then the weaver stick is probably a better idea.

Edited April 20, 2004 by the swiss

[amaury]

It's a bit off topic but the one hand lift is not just a grip strength test too (but i like it anyway) ! During the Swiss comp i stopped at 200kgs (440lbs) on that lift because my legs and back could not handle more ( my hand didn't rip open). And the stronger you are the more you can concentrate on your grip in that exercise !

[austinslater]

To be Honest and again Im a relatively new bender Pats and Erics bend look pretty similar in hand position. I thought it was standard to bend with only 2 of the fingers on the bar from each hand as is what Pat and Eric both do? Pats bar is shorter being a 6.5" red but it would seem he is only using his first 2 fingers although Im sure Pat would be able to answer this. And Again why wouldnt they only use 2 fingers? Its a position of maximum leverage and they should take advantage of that. Interesting discussion though. Im curious to hear the opinions of some of the other top benders on the board.

[dubthewonderscot]

You have taken the wrong path (and others are following) by straying away from the original challenge of bending steel, using the strength in your wrists and hands.

......In your opinion amigo

[the swiss]

repeating myself a little, I have to say that I find complexity in bending to be a part of its beauty. I do not think it is the best test of pure wrist strength, but it is a great test of strength nonetheless.

I do agree on the 1' rag issue though. Having recently tried a long nylon pad, I find it makes the bend a little easier.

Edited April 20, 2004 by the swiss

[terminator]

Guys, I set the bars I bend down to the third finger depth in my palm regardless of length. That way my three strongest fingers are gripping the bar. The first two open up a bit on the initial bend, quite frankly because with my hands held that high it allows me to align my wrists with my upper arms, no other reason. If I applied the force at that angle with all fingers tightly clamped on the bar at 7" my wrists would break. When bending shorter pieces of Red Nail 5-5.5" that is not necessary. When I bend I am gripping the nail and applying force to the nail. When a single towel with a large overhang is used and the hands pull on the towel many inches beyond the length of the bar it adds leverage. Anyone who says it doesn't has not tried it. Mikael's comment was constructive in my opinion. If Eric is fortunate enough to display his talents in front of someone like John Brookfield, Slim Farman, or Dennis Rogers someday he definitely would not want to be using his current method as these gentlemen would absolutely point out the same thing Mikael did, maybe not as diplomatically in some cases. I favor the use of two pieces of protective material because if you attempt to pull on the material with your hands hanging off the nail it will unravel and pop your teeth out. It's a self policing technique.

Eric's a heck of a strong guy who has made amazing progress. I don't think there has been any malice involved in the commentary at all. We've all been through the same and worse type of criticism, ultimately his bending will be better in the long run. I watched Steve Weiner bend what we thought was his official Red Nail which took about ten minutes of herculean effort very strictly performed in front of 20-25 onlookers. Later he was informed of the "1 minute rule". He didn't cry and moan, he's just stepping up to the challenge.

[amaury]

When a single towel with a large overhang is used and the hands pull on the towel many inches beyond the length of the bar it adds leverage.

What happens when you pull on the ends of a towel : it tends to straighten the towel (and therefore the nail inside), not to bend it.

[terminator]

The towel straightens, and stiffens like a rod. When the ends are pulled the leverage of the "rod" comes into play.

[amaury]

The towel straightens, and stiffens like a rod.

Indeed, and that's why you have to fight both the resistance of the created rod (the straightened towel that tends to unbend the nail) and the resistance of the nail.

Pat i'm sure you're right if you say that using a longer towel makes the bend easier, but it is certainly not because it "adds" leverage. Using a THICKER towel would add leverage (it adds material on the ends of the nail, therefore creating a virtually longer nail) though.

[smitty]

Torque = Force * distance of lever arm from the point of force to the axis of rotation

To be a little bit more specific - Torque is a cross product. So, it is the distance from the axis of rotation to a point perpendicular to the force vector.

That means that if the amount of Torque needed to bend a RED is = X, and the length of the lever arm is increased, then the amount of F=Force needed to achieve the same amount of Torque is less. So, increasing the lever arm will decrease the amount of force needed to bend the RED.

That being said, I believe that bending a RED is incredible and maybe something I might never do. I also believe that everyone’s opinion is important in trying to establish a set of rules governing our grip community. Rules that we all agree on… or at least the majority. I think that all the RED benders (that I’m aware of, sorry if I forget everyone) like; Pat, Eric, Steve W, Dave, Steve M, Shrug, Tommy?, ect…are world class…regardless if they meet the yet undefined definition of world class. Using towels that hang over the RED, longer than 1”, is a different bend (according to the raw physics) than a bend where there is only 1” of towel past the ends. As far as, what it actually takes to bend a RED....only the above listed can comment of that feat. But, I have never seen anything that said bending was only a demonstration of wrist strength.(of course wrist strength is a huge factor) I totally don’t agree with this statement. The old strongman might have only used their wrists, but when I bend I use my whole body, upperback, traps, hands, wrists, elbows…..and I have never seen any modern day benders stand upright, with a relaxed back, hands relaxed in front of them, bending stock just using their wrists…

Edited April 20, 2004 by smitty

[ianders1]

Considering this is a world-class feat, the discussion of technique is definitely warranted, but at the end of the day, I think anyone who can bend a Red using just their body (braced or not) is in a pretty elite class. At his current rate, it won't be long before Eric's able to do the bend as strictly as it needs to be. Great job Eric

[nils]

HHmm there are very few here that has participated in grip contests where the new format where bending has been an event. And two of those that just came from the swiss competition seem to indicate that it isn't really a good event to have in a grip and wrist competition...

That is one way of solving the technique issues. use leverage bars for wrist strength and let people bend however they want, out of contests...

[gazza]

I think we should leave it to PAT to decide,him being the steelbender most people luck upto and admire,although everybody else that bends or is just starting off is great too.

Apart from maybe John Brookfield,Slim and Dennis Rodgers,Pat has more knowledge than most on bending unbraced and braced and ceretainly in my book is the worlds best,yes i thgink that some people can match him on certain bends,but all around various lengths of bar etc he is the champ,plus he is the only person so far to bend a RED to ways the terminator style and lately double overhand.

I think if PAT says the 1 rag adds leverage i will take him as his word as he knows abit about this old bending lark

Now after cooling off i think that what Mikael says about the overhanging cloth may be right and HEATH is right Mikael is a superb critic with a very keen eye and

a no bull straight to the piont man This rubs me up the wrong way sometimes,but hay i am a man and can admit when i acted like a dick! Sorry Mikael it is people like yourself that we need if we are to push this excellent sport of bending to further heights and anything world class or competition standart does need to be harsh and super critical,or we will as Bill put it end up with another thomas inch feasco.

Of coarse for people like myself who just want to have fun as well as sometimes compete/or not then we can use one/two cloths what ever,but if we wanmt to step upto the mark and be judged by are peers then we have to toe the line and except the standards.

I still think that a RED bent anyway even braced is an elite bend,its just the standards are now higher.

Erics bend is awesome and i agree that he will keep on modifying his technique even with 2 small cloths/pads and still go onto be one of the best,then he will be even better than he is now

Once again sorry if i offended anyone and you are right Bill we do set high standards on this board,but it is a fare standard which each and everyone of us has to meet,no exceptions,this is why it is the number 1 place for grip and i am glad that i am a member,it is a privaledge to be able to log on and see and discuss worldclass grip feats

[austinslater]

I understand that as the length of the lever arm is increased you would in theory have added leverage. But the towel doesnt stay in a fixed state to add leverage it gives out way before it would add leverage and folds into the end of the nail and as others have pointed out this is shown by holes in the cloth. Im an underhand bender so again Im probably way off as the 2 styles are extremely different. Interesting thread to say the least.

Austin

[odin]

I guess there will have to be "growing pains" as bending continues to emerge; this is a very interesting debate. It will be interesting to see this and other facets of the grip sport develop over the years.

What styles are considered to isolate wrist & hand strength the most and considered "purest"? I don't have much strength past my elbows anyway, so I'll have to learn a style that doesn't involve as much shoulder, pec & lat power. Is "Slim-style" the most wrist intensive, or perhaps the method JB uses?

Edited April 20, 2004 by odin

[David Horne]

Yes, as I said earlier there has been some good ideas here.

Gazza,

The 'normal' bending is in the hands of Pat, and we will implement the new rule after the British Grip champs.

1. The kinking of the 450k bar is implemented from now, and will require video for proof as usual. It will be handed to the bender from the witness as usual, and rolled on a flat table to denote no kinking to start with. After you have done your bend you will again roll it on the table to see if it has kinked. If it has, measure the height of the kink for interest value by standing a steel ruler beside and letting the witness decide how many millimetres it has moved.

This steel bar is incredibly hard and really only people who can do reds need apply.

2. The bending with the leather pads has started tonight, and Dave Johnson and I had a go and both did 231k. Same rules as 'normal' bending except all we hold for protection is the 2" x 2" leather pads. Video certification after 240k is required as usual.

David

[mcham]

I always bend with 2 cloths, so I don't know what a longer single cloth does leverage wise.... but I do find myself sometimes doing "crush bends" by pushing directly inwards on the ends of the bar instead of pure "wrist bends"... usually becuase I haven't kinked the nail enough before trying to crush it.

While I can bend harder steel steel this way I am trying to stop doing it because it is destroying my shoulders I don't know if anyone else has experienced this, but I think the pressure on the shoulder joint makes this a dangerous bending style and I would rather go slower and do strict wrist bends.

[Mikael Siversson]

Eliminating the use of a one piece cloth is the first step. After that we need to look into ways of eliminating the possibility to use full pectoral force at very wide angles of the nail/bar. In the end we may end up with a "no padding whatsoever" bend or a two piece leather/other material cover with an open bottom end, which would mean that the chest crush can only be attempted at fairly narrow angles, like it should be really IMO.

Edited April 21, 2004 by Mikael Siversson

[Rick Walker]

The old strongman might have only used their wrists, but when I bend I use my whole body, upperback, traps, hands, wrists, elbows…..and I have never seen any modern day benders stand upright, with a relaxed back, hands relaxed in front of them, bending stock just using their wrists…

When I first got into bending, this was how I thought it was to be done, and hence thought a 60-penny bend was freaking outlandish!

As I got into it more, I learned techniques from board members.

However, given my current situation, I may have to resort to bending with wrists only??? I might as well give it a try, and while I am at it, eliminate the padding as well...

Rick Walker

[dubthewonderscot]

Michael,

I ask this with absolutely no malice. I am not one of these people who shouts down at sports radio guys with the inane question (have you played the game?) and if the answer is no, discounting their opinions. So please know that this is not pointed that direction.

I'm just curious if you are indeed a bender and if so, what level you are at. I am a very poor bender, and will admit that I do not know as much as others do. I've only bent blue's and 60d nails. But in my bending, especially with Ironminds poor quality control (I still don't know why they can't take the 5 seconds that David Horne does to grind the ends of their bars) I've noticed that using no wrapping would slice the hands apart. Even with no use of the "pectoral bend". Just a queston on logisitics. Not calling your legitamacy into question.

Thanks

W

[tspinillo]

Is this the form of bending (wrist emphasis) that JBrookfield wrote about

in the last MILO?

T

[Mikael Siversson]

Michael,

I ask this with absolutely no malice. I am not one of these people who shouts down at sports radio guys with the inane question (have you played the game?) and if the answer is no, discounting their opinions. So please know that this is not pointed that direction.

I'm just curious if you are indeed a bender and if so, what level you are at. I am a very poor bender, and will admit that I do not know as much as others do. I've only bent blue's and 60d nails. But in my bending, especially with Ironminds poor quality control (I still don't know why they can't take the 5 seconds that David Horne does to grind the ends of their bars) I've noticed that using no wrapping would slice the hands apart. Even with no use of the "pectoral bend". Just a queston on logisitics. Not calling your legitamacy into question.

Thanks

W

I do bend but I am not that good at it. I failed today on a 260k bar, but at least I gave it a good kink. I got up to 240k before I injured my right wrist during a double overhand bend. It is better know so I should be able to continue to progress.

With IM's nails it is best to file down the ends as they, as you say, will cut up your hands real good. They should not be offered for sale with such poor finish IMO.

Edited April 21, 2004 by Mikael Siversson