Question for Joe Roark

[mobsterone]

I knew that this new stimulus would garner a response. Alastair D. Campbell is not aware of the great research you have been doing and it is therefore written without access to your additional info.

However, given your comments I am hoping that you are indeed ready to give a long and detailed response - perhaps for my magazine and to be printed in the new year after this article is published?

[Roark]

You're a tricky one, my British friend.

Sadly, I have not seen a copy of your

magazine; would you send me an issue?

Further, would my piece be unedited and

printed as sent to you, if I agree?

Cheers!

[Sybersnott]

This topic has been one of the most entertaining I have ever read on the GripBoard!  Thank you Roark for putting a new twist on this subject.  I am a big fan of Arthur Saxon, and reading as many things as I can about him - I am of the conclusion that he could not lift the Inch Dumbbell either.  But so what?  Does that diminish his career as one of the strongest men ever?  No.  Inch was a strongman, but above all - he was a SHOWMAN (just like a lot of other strongmen of that era).  He left a legacy, and something for all other "future strongmen" to aspire to.  Doesn't THAT count for something?

[Roark]

Sybersnott,

Not sure why you think Saxon could not have

lifted the Inch bell? I think he could have if he

ever tried (which I don't think he did).

When he failed to lift John Y. Smith's 'thick-

handled' dumbell circa 1910-1911, keep in mind that

the weight of Smith's dumbell was 225 lbs, and Smith

could clean it with one hand. Saxon failed to clean it,

but there is not mention that he failed to get it off the

ground- which most certainly would have made for a

juicy tid-bit. So I assume he did get it off the ground,

and in my opinion since it outweighed the Inch bell

by 53 lbs, and Arthur had 9" long hands, he could

have easily deadlifted the Inch bell, and with his

lifting skills could have trained and succeeded at

cleaning it; then the bent press would have been

about 50% of his capability.

Regarding Inch's legacy and giving following lifters

something to shoot for. Of course, but it was a

false something.

I can urge you to close the #4 without falsely

claiming that I have already done it. What would

the board members think of someone who claimed

to have closed the #4 hundreds of single times, but

who was discovered later to have three other grippers

equal in appearance to the #4, the weakest gripper

requiring less than half the #4's closing force? I for

one would not have respect for that person. Having

said that, Inch had many achievements for which he

can be well remembered: an incredible bent presser,

Britain's Strongest Man etc.

[Sybersnott]

Let's cut to the quick:  I remember reading somewhere that Saxon could not lift the bell because the handle width is only four inches.  Saxon's hand was much wider than Inch's (Inch had a narrow hand and long fingers).  On my plate-loaded Inch, the handle is six inches wide... which is the way I like it!

[Roark]

Sybersnott,

The quick is not so easily cut to:

1. Saxon's replica of the Inch bell (according to

   Inch) was modeled on the 172, so would have

   had a 4" wide handle also. Saxon, according to

   Inch, mastered this replica, but could not lift

   Inch's original. Huh?

2. I have never seen measurements for Inch's hand

   size, but have read several references that he had

   small hands, one author even saying 6" wrists and

   fingers small enough for a ladies ring to fit any

   finger. What lady, Katie Sandwina? In most photos

   I have seen of Inch his hand size does not appear to

   be unusually small, rather, they appear to be in the

   normal range. I asked Webster about Inch's hand size

   and he confirmed that they could not be termed 'small'

   but were in the 'average' range.

3.  Willoughby suggested that the 4" width may have been

   a factor in Saxon's failure because of Arthur's large hand

   size, but now we know that huge men have not mentioned

   this as a factor. Pro wrestler Mark Henry nearly pulled

   a replica to shoulder height and he weighs well over

   300 and has corresponding hand size. Some of the

   World Strongest Man competitors with huge hands

   have tried the bell and to my knowledge not one

   who succeeded or failed mentioned handle width;

   perhaps someone did and I am not aware of it.

3A. It would have been extremely unethical of Inch to

   not mention hand width as the preventing factor in

   Arthur's case, because we are directed to believe

   the failure was due not to hand width but to

   a lack of sufficient strength. It would be similar to me

   telling people that you cannot one hand deadlift a

   172 lb dumbell, without adding the very important

   detail of handle circumference.

[Arne]

Roark

Do you think that John Grün in his prime could deadlift the  Inch bell (172). I think he could done it easily. Did Inch ever tested one of Grün's challenge dumbbells?

[Roark]

Arne,

Inch said that Marx was one of the few who did

not try his 172 bell. Inch should more properly

have said that Marx was on that select list of those

whom he knew would toy with the bell, and therefore

it was never handy when those men were in town.

Willoughby wrote in Ironman Sep 1976:

"Therefore, if Inch had taken his 'unliftable' dumbbell

over to France about the time he first offered a prize

to anyone else who could lift it, he would soon have

been relieved of his award money! The middleweight

'grip men' Leon See (65.75 in., 155 lbs) and E.

Vandernocke (66 in. 165 lbs.), each of whom had

lifted Apollon's 226-pound barbell with its 2.36-inch

diameter handle, would doubtless have found Inch's

bell easy pickings; while John Marx, provided he

could get his large hand around the handle of the

weight, would- as the English amateur weightlifting

champion of those days, Tom Pevier, opined- 'pro-

bably have swung it'."

Leon See weighing 155 lbs [dead] lifted the 226 lb

Apollon barbell with a handle .12" smaller in diameter

than the Inch bell, but outweighing the Inch bell by

54 pounds! This was 1.45 times his bodyweight! And,

of course, regarding overall strength Marx and Apollon

far exceeded See.

There is good reason that Inch never took the bell

out of his native country, and further good reason

he, and/or, it, was elsewhere when men of the above

power came knocking.

Keep in mind also that Marx on a 2.75" diameter bar

did a right hand snatch with 154.25 lbs.

So, yes, Marx would have lifted the bell and Inch's

cash!

Inch wrote of Marx's bells but did not mention if he

had tried them. I do not think he did try them. As you

know Marx wrapped the handles in foil to make the

bells even harder to lift. The bells, you remember were

diameters of 2.75": one weighing 132 lbs, and the other

weighing 143 lbs. One would suspect that if Inch were

able, as he claimed, to one hand his 172 overhead,

(hundreds of times over the years) he would not be

stopped by Marx's bells. But that's a bet I would take!

[Arne]

Roark

Vielen Dank!

Your knowledge are very impressive!

Arne Persson

[Guest 68-1005097157]

Roark,

  You make several references to Marx being able to "lift" the Inch DB.  You also talk about him receiving Inch's prize money were he to attempt this.  As Inch's definition of lifting the DB involved cleaning it and putting it overhead, does this mean that you believe that Marx was capable of cleaning the Inch DB?  It seems rather hard to believe that his success in this endeavour was ensured given that not a single man we know about has ever done so.  

  Thank you for the information.

[Roark]

Doc,

What was insured was the fact that Inch would

never allow any of the men mentioned in my

previous post to come near the bell.

Marx would have literally cleaned the bell easily, and

remember that when Apollon lost his grip on the 226

lb bell it slipped out of his grasp ABOVE his head be-

cause Apollon did not like to dip under a weight he was cleaning, so it was more of what is to day known as a

power clean. And that bell was heavier than the Inch.

Inch was a master promoter, and a shrewd man of

business, he knew when to present the bell and when

to have it out of availability. When the bell was first

manufactured (my guess is 1906), in my opinion Marx,

Apollon, Arthur Saxon, and perhaps others could have

put it overhead with one hand. Many others could

have deadlifted it.

The reason that not a single man we know of has ever

put the Inch 172 overhead with one hand, was that

it was selectively presented. Ah, the stories the stage-

hands could tell us while watching the bells being switched!

If I chose my candidates carefully, I can present the #2

gripper to a thousand people, and it will not be closed. If

I go to the wrong audience (strongman contestants, pro

football players, grip masters, it will be closed frequently).

If there is my money at risk, I will avoid the latter group.