Thick Bar and Overhead Stuff

[Guest Luke Reimer]

I was just wondering who all likes to train at one-armed snatches and cleans with their thick bars. My curiousity was sparked after taking another tour of Tom Black's website (wow!), as well as reading some of the recent threads on the subject.

Up until recently I was content just to lift my dumbbells a few inches off the floor and set them back down a few seconds later. I've never been much interested in long holds--my training emphasis is on pure power (mainly grip), endurance be hanged (that's my approach to competitive armwrestling too). It has just occurred to me that snatches and cleans would be ideal for this grip training emphasis (power), so I tried some yesteday.  These exercises indeed seem to give you something to do with your grip that loads your fingers to the maximum, but only for a second or so.

I think this has some appeal in the way of functional-strength too, since really short-duration power would not seem to be very useful for many real-life tasks unless combined with the ability to yank the weight up to a stable lock-out position (e.g. the shoulder, chest). Not that my interest in grip and strength training is entirely a practical one--I enjoy it enough that I would probably do it anyway, even if it never helped me do anything that actually needed doing.  But it would be a bonus to become better at getting the more mundane tasks done too.

I also find it interesting how a much lighter weight that is being snached or cleaned--because of the greater acceleration forces--can generate the same resistance against the fingers as a heavier weight merely being broken from the ground. My heaviest one-armed cleans yesterday were less than 70% of my heaviest one-armed anyhow lifts. I am pretty sure that in the case of my thick-handled cleans, it was my fingers holding me back, rather than my larger muscle groups (my yanks felt rather soft to keep the weight in my hand). Has anyone else run any comparisons like this? Tom Black?

On Tom's website I remember reading his opinion that the hardest part of a one-handed overhead lift with a thick dumbbell (perhaps 2 3/8" or more?) would more likely be the clean (because of the demands on the fingers), and that any such dumbbell that a person could successfully clean he could likely jerk (extended overhead) successfully too.  Since my grip strength greatly outstrips (or at least is disproportionate to) my meager upper body strength, I was skeptical and expected the difficulty instead to be in the jerk. However, to my surprise my experience confirmed Tom's predictions. As I kept incrementing the weight, I could keep jerking whatever I had cleaned, until I couldn't clean anymore.

BTW, these experiments wreaked some serious havoc with my effort to use grippers every day--today was a lost cause for grippers.

Cheers,

Luke

[BarBender]

One type of exercise that seems to help with one-armed overhead lifts is to do shallow swings with a weight that is well within your gripping ability. The centrifugal force of the swing adds to the weight that the grip must overcome. Practice with a light anvil, loading pin, or dumbbell.

[Tom Black]

    Your 70% number holds true for myself on one handed cleans, compared to a full controlled deadlift off the floor, using an Inch dumbbell sized handle.  Interestingly, in order to clean the actual Inch Dumbbell, using the 70% formula, one would have to be able to full deadlift a huge 246 pounds!   Another thing that I find interesting about the relationship between a deadlift and a clean, is that for me a weight that I can clean seems almost trivial to deadlift.  My point here is that if Thomas Inch cleaned the Inch Dumbbell at the same percentages, then the mere deadlift of the bell should also have seemed trivial too him.  On the other hand, I clean the weight fairly high, maybe dropping down only 1/3 to at most ½ way down.  My prediction is that someone very skilled at cleaning a dumbbell could get a higher percentage, but I honestly don't know how much more because I don't have any experience with it myself.  This could go a long way in explaining how Inch could have cleaned his dumbbell.

  I wrote the comments regarding the clean and jerk a long time ago on my web site.  As you say Luke, I was accurate, but I'd like to append my comments.  I think for a medium to strong presser that any weight cleaned with a thick handled dumbbell, one should be able to press.  This is an upward revision of my prediction, somewhat based on your observations, as well as what I have done since writing that.

    I'm glad you brought this up, now that I have both the Inch handle and Turk, I could clean and jerk both handles at once.  Here again, I'd have to lower the weight cleaned, mostly because of the awkwardness of having both bells going.   Also, failure is not an option for me because I'd be doing this in my condo, and I really can't drop a weight 4-5 feet!  I'm also thinking of going for Herk's 110-pound clean and jerk.  He outweighs me by quite a bit so I would be happy matching this lift.  I haven't tried it yet, but I'm sure I could do 100-pounds already.

BTW, glad you liked my ever expanding website.

[Roark]

Tom,

I assume these proportions do not hold true

for one handed deadlifts on a 1.1" bar? Goerner's

one handed 727.5 deadlift, would imply a one

handed clean of 509.25 if so.

[Tom Black]

    Ha, I don't think so!  Actually, I should have stated that all of the above was for dumbbell with a handle about the size of the Inch Dumbbell. I didn't want to confuse the post too much, but I'll add something here because it might be relevant.  I found a higher percentage between my 3" wood handle deadlift compared to my clean of the same dumbbell.  I was looking back at some old pictures when I first made a 3" and I cleaned 82% of what deadlifted.  At first I thought, how could this be?  Then I realized that the thicker handle demands lower weights, and thus overall body strength is even less of a factor.  Extrapolating the other way, with a thinner handle, the higher weights afforded would thus be more of a factor for the overall body strength and the weights cleaned would level off.  Real confusing, I know, but I think it makes sense.  I don't have a lot of data on this, only myself, and of course the percentages will vary, but I think the general theory probably would hold.  

[BarBender]

Ideally, anything that can be pulled above the belt line can be squat cleaned. With thick handles we are obviously limited by gripping strength. A dumbbell also induces the additional challenge of overcoming rotational inertia. Higher acceleration during the clean will result in a lower clean to deadlift ratio. The higher percentage for the 3-inch handle is likely due to a low acceleration pull. A lighter weight is used and the clean can be done in a more gingerly fashion. All bets are off when cleaning with a pinch grip.   

[Tyrannosaurus Dave]

Barbender, you are exactly right that the 3" handle reduces the acceleration but that you can compensate by squatting under it.  I taught myself to squat clean a dumbbell last year and managed 110 with the 3" DB, when I could only deadlift about 120.  You just start slow and squat low.  It helps to have some experience in the Olympic lifts.  By the way, anybody who is proficient at cleaning long bars with one hand has my admiration.

Tdave