Ironmind News.

[Roark]

RSW,

Frankly I do not understand your analogy that the deep set is similar in function to a bench shirt. The former involves only unadorned bodyparts.

I see it more like this: To understand the meaning of a bent press, it must first be established how the bell was brought to the shoulder [how it was set]. If the bell was cleaned, the bent press poundage will be less than if two hands were allowed to 'set' the bar at the shoulder, or even if the bar was stood on end and then the lifter leaned under it to set it. A one armed man could probably never hold the record in the anyhow clean and bent press.

The real meaning of the bent press is how much can be mastered once the bell is at the shoulder.

The real meaning of the gripper is what level can be mastered once the gripper is in position- however it got to that starting position.

Maybe I am not understanding your parallel?

[The Mac]

Joe,

If that is your definition of a gripper close then that is probably where the problem with this whole thing lies. MY definition is that you have to close the thing with one hand, not using two to "get it into position". The use of the second hand is probably (although I cannot speak for RSW) where his anology to the bench shirt comes in.

[Roark]

A gripper should test closing strength, not hand spread.

In my view, if grippers were so wide that no one could close a trainer - because it could not be grasped properly to begin with- there would be no GripBoard, and further, the unfairness of such a design would be more apparent.

If gripping machines were used instead of grippers, let me ask this:

On my Hammer Strength gripping machine, there is no way under Heaven that I can bring the bottom handles up to get into position, unless I stand, and grabbing only the lower handles (my thumbs won't reach the upper handles until I do this) bring them up so I can wrap my thumbs around the upper handles. Am I cheating, or simply getting into my position?

What's the difference between this example and the gripper?

Kim Wood said that one of his football players could load the Hammer Strength gripper machine with 45s and rep out- AFTER a couple of guys helped him get it to the starting position. Was he cheating? I won't be the one to tell him

[Rick Browne]

I feel that with more and more strong guys closing the #3, maybe Strossen felt

he had to raise the "Standard" so as to return it to what he has self-described

as a world class feat.

[tspinillo]

I have a feeling that the IM list will stop growing for awhile, then

gripsters with average 7.5" hands (give or take a bit) will start

appearing on the #3 list again.

This thread is getting too long.

T

[amaury]

feel that with more and more strong guys closing the #3, maybe Strossen felt

he had to raise the "Standard" so as to return it to what he self-described

as a world class feat.

Yes very probably Rick, but what is funny is that closing an average #3 even with the new rules is still not a world class feat (provided you have, say, +7.75" hands) IMHO. My guess, just like tspinillo, is that this new rule will change little to nothing in the long term. It's just a delay.

[Rick Browne]

QUOTE 

feel that with more and more strong guys closing the #3, maybe Strossen felt

he had to raise the "Standard" so as to return it to what he self-described

as a world class feat.

Yes very probably Rick, but what is funny is that closing an average #3 even with the new rules is still not a world class feat (provided you have, say, +7.75" hands) IMHO. My guess, just like tspinillo, is that this new rule will change little to nothing in the long term. It's just a delay.

I agree with you on the delay aspect. I believe guys will figure it out and

customize their training and focus on full sweep training.

But you can believe that Strossen will argue till he is blue in the face, that his

#3s are all fairly (cough-cough) consistent in their strength!

[RSW]

RSW,

Frankly I do not understand your analogy that the deep set is similar in function to a bench shirt. The former involves only unadorned bodyparts.

Maybe I am not understanding your parallel?

A bench shirt effectively reduces the ROM of the lift by giving a strong assistance at the bottom turning a benchpress into a benchpress lockout. Most single ply lifter find their 3-board presses correspond well to there single-ply bench.

Sure, a better analogy would be substituting a bench press were you stop 4.5" above your chest for a full ROM press.

Only people with truly giant hands do not benefit from the superior leverage of the set position. I know I get around an extra 10-15% in closing strength. An extra 10% on my bench would move me from 340# to 375#. However, I don't consider using a shorter ROM making myself any stronger.

Robert

[Digdogz]

Just come back from a while away, Look at the length of this thread!!

My 2 pence worth,

I have just got a #3 after my #2 closing has increased, This puts my future certification plans out the window.

When i do close my #3 and all you guys see the video, that will be enough for me.

After that its onto the MM, and that will mean something to me.

Digz.

[Capt4Score]

Hello Gripsters,

I have been checking the board over the past few days, read many of the posts, and talked with dad and many other grip guys, and here are some random thoughts that came to mind regarding the new IM situation, and some of the posts specifically:

1. I think we should all be happy that we even have the "sport" of grip, a medium to talk with each other about it, a group of people who even care about it, and a publication that we can show the rest of the strength world our accomplishments. Without this, gripping is just some unorganized compolation of bar-room myths and stunts (but that is not always a bad thing).

2. Whether you like the new rules or not, as long as the guy supplying the impliments, and the challenge, he has full rights to make the rules whatever he wants, it is his game, it is your choice to play. I am not saying that the recent change is good or bad...it may keep me from certifying OR it may make me work harder than ever and reach a new level of grip strength which may have been impossible without some prompting. If changing the rules allows us to standardize the game, which possibly could save us in the long run, I am for it.

3. I really liked gymanstics when I was a kid, I think it one of the coolest, most athletic things you can do. I am 6'3" and 240lb. I would probably not be a world class gymnast, I am too big. I found that I am pretty good at throwing and lifting things though, which is what I chose to persue. Function follows form. I still watch gymnastics, and I still incorperate it in my training (probably my favorite part of my agility workouts) but my size may limit me from making the Olympic team for my prowess on the rings or the horse.

On the other "hand"... my hand is a little under 8" long and my pinky is 2.5" long (pretty good size for gripping). I cannot close the #3 no set, or credit card set as of today. But...that does not mean I cannot train hard to do so. Maybe I will never be able to do these feats, but that is the attractive part of "challenge" events (like the INCH, Blob, #3 etc.)

***None of us are guaranteed reaching our grip / strength goals, just becuase we buy a gripper or a barbell, and try really hard... Sorry, it is not a "politically correct", feel-good way to look a it, but it is the truth. ***

I have more grip gear within 20 feet of me right now, than most of the free world will ever see, will I ever clean the INCH bell? maybe so, maybe not, but that is why we strive to reach the next level. To quote Doc Kreis, strength coach at UCLA, "You know when the end is?...Never!"

You gotta fight the good fight, and run the race, no matter the out come.

4. I feel that a standardized way of measuring the challenge grippers is a must, if we are to legitamize the feat of strength. This includes strength and skew angles of grippers, and method of closing. If it is not a big enough deal to make sure these formalities are in place, then maybe we should not put as much stock on the actual feat. Remember...it was invented to be a fun and a challenging, not something that is life or death! New standards may make it hard from some, impossible for others, but this is the game we have chosen to play. Remember- it is a CHALLENGE GRIPPER!

I am not crazy about the credit card method of doing this, I feel like a simple one handed "no set" would be the purest way to measure, but as new Captain of Crush, Dave Hermann, who I saw working out in the gym said friday, when we told him what was going on with all of this simply shrugged his shoulders and said, "Well, whatever they decide, I guess I will just do it that way." and went to training harder.

5. Although I realize many people are aggravated, I don't think personal attacks on a world-wide forum is a really good idea. Enough said.

6. I appreciate everyone's passion on this subject and grip in general. It is kinda nice when you can go to the Arnold Classic, and not only get to hang out with a bunch of other guys who like grip as much (or more) than you do, but also where a great number of other people actually know what the Blob, the INCH or the #3 are. 5 years ago, few knew this, 10 years ago, almost no one. Interest has been created, and we have started to establish a league of our own. Let's keep it moving in a positive direction, striving to reach the next level, for one simple reason...because we respect and love it.

As I said, these are just some random thoughts during a turbulent time.

Best of luck to all of you. Have a great day.

Live Strong,

Bert Sorin

[mobsterone]

Hi Bert, many of your points are valid except number 2. Here's a quick list of the companies that make the kind of grippers we like. Ironmind, Lemely, HeavyGrips, Robert Baraban, Warren Tetting and Ivanko. Not included as I am not sure he still makes them was PDA. One or two on that list have grown out of IM's work and before IM Warren Tetting's work.

Now here's a problem. The most recognised is IM but there are several grippers stronger and men and women who can close those stronger grippers including the GB's own MM grippers.

If you do not have a standard for the grippers, if you do not have a agreed means of testing the grippers strength and if you accept the massive variation in quality we have a problem.

To then add further confusion but moving the goalposts as to how the damn thing gets shut is not making things better.

If IM were the only player then we should, as you say, be grateful. But surely IM and the other companies ought to be just as grateful that we love grip so much that we want to see things done right - shouldn't they, IM, be just as grateful that strongmen, grip men and athletes of all kinds buy the goods that allow such companies to flourish?? I think so.

[Irrepressible Monkey]

I may well get flamed for this, being a newcomer and one "one of the boys", but I don't see what the fuss is about. I'm new to the scene, but since I've found it and have started upon the path, I've always had a feeling in my mind "isn't 'setting' a bit of a cheat?" It seems to me that all this "they've changed the rules, it's harder for us, those people didn't have to leave a 2 inch gap, let's boycott IM and their products" etc. is a bit childish. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean in any way to knock the achievements of anyone that has closed an IM gripper, 4, 3 hell even 2 with a deep set. I'm pretty damn sure I'll never even close a #2 with any kind of set, and I recognise that closing a #3 even with a deep set is a fantastic feat of strength. It just seems to me that, OK it's now tougher to get the IM cert, but if you want it then it's still worth going for, and you should feel all the more proud when you shut it. I do understand the problem with small hands though, as mine are also small.

I apologise in advance if I upset anyone, and I'm more than happy to be slapped down and shown the error of my ways. =) As I've already said, I'm a complete newbie so I'm sure my view is over simplistic.

[JeffPeterson]

Rob what gripper are you sending to old guy?

[OldGuy]

Rob what gripper are you sending to old guy?

The hardest one he can find probably

[JeffPeterson]

I was just trying to think of what gripper even has a 4 inch plus spread the bibbest I've seen is 3 and 11/16. Good luck Old guy I'm sure it will be tough.

[Sybersnott]

The hardest one he can find probably

Aw, I have faith in you, little trooper!! Smash that gripper!!

[OldGuy]

Clearly myself or anybody else for that matter will not be able to close a 4'' spread #4, but I will be able to close it part way with no set whatsoever.

[patrick]

This was in an email that Strossen sent me.

A guy called me to say what a huge favor we'd actually done everyone because otherwise the whole accomplishment was going to be watered down to nothing by deep-set artists instead of actual Captains of Crush.

Strossen agreed with this guy. So I guess he thinks that a lot of you Captains of Crush are just deep-set artists and nothing more. Sad isn't it.

[Rick Walker]

Exactly why my name is no longer on the list

Rick Walker

[Monte Cristo2]

This was in an email that Strossen sent me.

A guy called me to say what a huge favor we'd actually done everyone because otherwise the whole accomplishment was going to be watered down to nothing by deep-set artists instead of actual Captains of Crush.

Strossen agreed with this guy. So I guess he thinks that a lot of you Captains of Crush are just deep-set artists and nothing more. Sad isn't it.

Strossen would do himself a favor if he didn't put stuff like that in emails. I wonder if the person who purportedly said that to him could close a 3 with no set, or even has any hope of closing one by any method, or if that person is a CoC, does he have large

hands.

I notice that there are more CoCs against the new rule than for and it could be due to fact that they ACTUALLY KNOW what is feels like to close one and what it takes to get

there. In addition to the difficulty of no set closing a heavy gripper, is it even safe to

attempt as a maximum attempt? There has to be a danger in trying to shift your hand

position while under maximum strain that a small handed person would have to do to

get a no set or very shallow set.

[kyle102887]

Exactly why my name is no longer on the list

Rick Walker

Way to stick it to the man Rick

[Dan Cenidoza]

Hats off to you Rick!

I'd join you but I can close it under the new rules... I still think it's cheesy though... a credit card

So what are you going to do about the tat?

[Tom Page]

Randy Strossen's reply to my e mail:

Tom,

Many thanks for your letter - I appreciate all your thoughts about this and I can tell you have thought hard about this.

Yes, the history is that the grippers we sold many years ago could vary a fair amount and there were some that were so wide that they would look ugly by today's standards. Recognizing just the points you raise about hand size and the sweep, we told people it fine to pull in the handle enough to get their pinky on it. What happened next, though, is that people went to a very deep set, which to us was more like doing a lock out bench press - to compound the problem, it wasn't as if everyone was doing this. We respect everyone's right to close the grippers however they choose, but the tradition on our grippers is not for a short-range effort, and when we tried without success to counter this trend a year ago, we were faced with no choice but to try again to bring things back to the traditional standard for our grippers. As you can guess, we are proud of each person who gets certified and we are ecstatic about the way you guys have pushed up the standards so much in the past few years - the top guys now can click grippers that nobody could close ten years ago and you know how much standards have risen on the Blob. We just don't want any basis for somebody saying that the standards followed now are much easier than originally, which would dilute everyone's accomplishment.

I don't know if this helps explain our thinking, but I have also put some more material about this on our home page ( www.ironmind.com ) that might clear things up too.

Please let me know if you have more questions, and many thanks for your thoughtful comments - much appreciated.

Randy Strossen

IronMind Enterprises, Inc.

[Bill Piche]

We just don't want any basis for somebody saying that the standards followed now are much easier than originally, which would dilute everyone's accomplishment.

Well, this could be said on the grippers alone due to variances. So, it's a weak argument in my book. As I keep saying, there are LARGER issues to tackle that remain unaddressed. All he had to do was change the 1 inch rule to parallel handles IMO. But, that would have been agreeing with the GripBoard.

[terminator]

I like Bert Sorin's post. Let's get on with it guys.