mobsterone Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 One of the accepted standards is the lifting of the weight to knee height and the norma refereeing rules ie: lift, down. All this takes a few seconds and so it becomes more difficult to compare. Re the point on plates: it's a little harder, not much, as there can be a slight variation. However, in the few competitions thus far we have all - both UK, US and EU used the same plates as our fellow lifters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Basile Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 (edited) I am glad that Arthur added his opinion to this debate. However, his is but one opinion among many. There are two main issues here among others. One is what should the standard be for pinching? The second is how should records be recognized? I don't think that anyone should have to please others in order to have a record accepted. Either someone lifted more than anyone else or he did not. In this thread it is clear no one is disputing that I lifted more than anyone else. My son Zorba, has, too, lifting 67.5 kg. They are records. End of story. There is no claim to being the world's best pinch lifter or the strongest at pinching. Just lifting the most weight. Others can make their own claims about such matters. There is no organization or rules. Just a bunch of people posting on a discussion board. Now the issue that is being considered is what does this record mean? Well, bring out the old standards. How does lifting another object prove anything about whether the first was lifted or not? I say that is being ridiculous. Like making Einstein go back and pass his maths exams after he revolutionized modern physics. No one is challenging that lifting 2 X 45 pound plates is a good feat. But lifting them doesn't mean you can be a world record holder in the pinch grip. Because of width and other considerations all is not equal in the grip feats. They are all very individual. If you want to have a list of blokes who can pinch 2 X 45 pound plates then make one up. Put Scott Clayton, Richard Sorin and Wade Gillingham up there and forget about guys like me. Many of you blokes have standards in the head and continue to apply them to everyone. "Yeah, but can you do such and such?" When I first came to the Gripboard I was in awe of anyone who could close a number 3. I bought all the grippers and took the #4 back. That was not possible. Those who post and have the "Certified Captain of Crush" status seemed stronger than the uncertified. Being good at pinching didn't compensate for not being one of the established clique. In the Aussie championships there were 5 competitors who have closed the #3. My son, Zorba, is a fraction away from doing so, too. That is a great feat and exceptional to have two young fellows doing it. Well, after the first 3 grip events I was ahead of the CoC's. So that means I am not weak, afterall. Having a good pinch can come in handy in overall contests. I fail to see how Arthur can dismiss my deadlifting 145 kg in the two hand pinch. This event was included in the 2002 grip championships and my lift was witnessed by Zorba and photographed. It was more than a 20mm pull. It was a pinch lift. The distance that a lift is made is irrelevant. If you lift a weight then you have defeated gravity. The idea that you have to stand up with a weight is not universal. It was mainly a way of showing off that came to be the accepted final position. Also, some were trying to use rules established in powerlifting to finish a lift and have a referee say, "down". All unnecessary. However, it may well be that those sort of rules will be part of all future contests. The fact that you don't have to lift the weight high on the machine was done on purpose. We started from the premise: What demonstrates the maximum strength possible on a machine? The answer: To clearly lift the weight the minimum distance possible. It is clear that 20 mm or 3/4 inch demonstrates to all observers that the weight has cleared the weight stack. If we want to measure maximum pinch strength then we will have to limit how high the weight has to be lifted. We have discussed the issue of washing hands, etc. All that business is based on the experiences of those who have excelled in using the machine. Arthur got 35 kg the first time he used the machine and that was about it until he took a machine home to practice on. Within a short time he was pinching 55kg. If he stopped doing wrist curls and other grip training he might do even more. So we all can improve on the event. I suspect that others who didn't do very well can blame interference from other training for their not so heavy lifts. There is no way we can prove this but that is my explanation. For the record I have average hands and average fingers. Nick and I compared hands and we were very similar. The actual technique of lifing any apparatus is peculiar to equipment. It is clear that certain techniques help close harder grippers. Setting and the like. So it is true that certain techniques help one lift more on the machine. I can't see that this is an argument not to use the machine. The main problem is that the machine is not currently available anywhere but Sydney at the moment. This could change if there were any interest but it appears the sport is rather entrenched and few are brave enough to want to change to using totally new apparatus and handles. Mobsterone and others are absolutely correct in that comparisons among events using different apparatus is not possible. What I find offensive, and I am not blaming those for doing so, is that calls to go and pinch other apparatus is like calling my feat of no importance at all. Sorry, but I do not agree. I took up pinching on skateboard tape and did okay in that event. It remains to be seen if I will compete in any more Australian contests especially if they have those old-men destroying heavy lifts. No thanks, gents. You can laugh all you want but I am too smart for that. I competed last year to try to defeat Arthur. I succeeded and have nothing more to prove at the moment. I perform much better when I am motivated by negative things. No one in his right mind would do all this silly stuff just for fun!! The one fear I have from lifting really heavy objects is having a stroke. The older one gets the more likely that is. You young guys go out there and destroy yourselves like I did. Join the club. You wouldn't listen, anyway and that is the sad truth. Edited January 8, 2004 by Vince Basile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaibox Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 (edited) Some people have pointed out that the thumb is the weakest part of the pinch. Thus, if you have an apparatus that limits that weakest part then perhaps more can be pinched. I have found that more can be pinched with two hands on an apparatus than 2 times one hand alone. Sort of cancelling out the thumb weakness a bit. This takes this lift out of pinch status. You cannot even compare this to pinching 2 plates. These are 2 totally different worlds. You're trying to compare a raw deadlift off the floor, with a rack dead in the smith machine. Why the hell would you eliminate the weak point of a lift. That weak point is what makes the lift difficult. Take that away, and you have a lift without the challange or respect of real pinching. You'll be left with, well.....something no one is all that interested in Edited January 8, 2004 by Thaibox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Antonopoulos Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Vince, You are correct, my opinion is one of but many, and so is yours. I didn't dismiss you're 145kg pinch on the bar with skateboard grip. What I was trying to say, and what you are sadly failing to understand, and you have failed to see for a very, very, very long time, is that NO ONE can relate to your lifts on this board. Can you understand that? Talk about the machine as much as you want, pinch 200kg's on it with your pinky and thumb and still no one will have any idea how good a lift it is. Records on your machine are exactly that, records on your machine. Records on plates are records on plates. What has been mentioned many times over, and I will not post this again, is that you CAN NOT compare a lift on your pinch machine with a pinch of any other variety. PERIOD. Stop trying. Seriously Vince, it looks like you are trying to convince and convert the world to your mode of thinking, while dismissing everyone else's opinions as inferior and unworthy. If you didn't you would have probably dropped this issue a couple of years ago and gone out and worked on pinching a couple of 20's, adding more credence to your lift in the eyes of many. But that's right, you don't care what anyone else thinks, you hate chalk and we are all just people on a discussion board that you have nothing to prove to. If that's the case why do you keep coming on here and preaching about standards and your machine and trying to gain recognition as the highest pinch lift ever hoisted??? Why don't you wait until this years Australian Grip Champs, where we will be having the same standard pinch set up as the Europeans and see what you can do on the same standard plate set up we will be using? You can then compare your lifts with ours here and with the Brit's and the rest of the Europeans. Train for a few months on the apparatus and see how it goes. Surely this will be a fantastic indicator of how good your pinch is in comparison with others that you keep mentioning, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Vigeant Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Its to bad because it sounds like he COULD be good at pinching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAMMERHEAD Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I think it's been established Vince has a good pinch grip. I'm not gonna get into this debate about standard. However I got a ? for Vince. Would it be possible to build a machine that mimicks a TTK style pinch. You could limit the range of motion, and use the flag system, etc... I'm thinking this style of machine may have a warmer welcome because it would eliminate the whole prep of the handle/hand. Just squeeze. Might be too complicated. Oh well, I apreciate what your trying to do and I think your heart is in the right place. Happy gripping! -HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AP Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I think it's been established Vince has a good pinch grip. I think its also been established that Vince is a prolific writer. Alright Vince, in 500 words or less, how can I duplicate your feats of pinching strength at home? Here's my solution, instead of building a machine, I will buy a miniature Austrailian flag which I will hold in my left hand. As my right hand pinches whatever weight I use, when I feel that the weight has left the floor, I will wave the flag thus signalling completion of the lift.... Reverse flag hand when pinching with the left... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Basile Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 Well, Arthur, going to university and getting advanced degrees in philosophy does prepare me to be able to interpret statements of fact. What is perplexing is that you good people are calling the kettle black. Let me quote your statement: "What has been mentioned many times over, and I will not post this again, is that you CAN NOT compare a lift on your pinch machine with a pinch of any other variety. PERIOD. Stop trying." Now, Arthur, since when am I comparing my performance with any other variety? If is the gripboard members who are doing this by trying to dismiss my lifts by inferring if I can't do the accepted strong pinch standard of 2 X 45 then I am not strong in the pinch. Wade, and Scott and David and others have exceptional pinching ability. So does Nick. We all know that. However, anyone who can lift more weight that the others in a pinch event should be credited with that weight. Period. I am not the one objecting to any lifts that have been done. When an organization becomes a reality they can have a committee looking into records, standards and such. In the meantime, I can claim any pinch I have done. There are no rules and standards so any should be acceptable. It is not up to you or any other individual to dictate what standards cannot be. Neither is it up to a consensus on a Kangaroo discussion board court. That happens far too often here and I prefer not to have things like records depend on the goodwill of others. Your suggestion about enterring the next Australian championships is full of the same thing. Do what the lads in Europe are doing and you will be able to compare with them. I can go over there in August and compete with them if I choose. That isn't the point. I never challenged those guys and all I am claiming is that I have lifted more in a pinch lift than anyone else. I was very surprised, as was everyone else, when Nick and a few others could not approach what was thought they could do. Since he did not the logic was to blame the machine and event. Well, that isn't being fair to the people who performed well on it. There are lots of pinching apparatus that affect performance. Just because someone does not do well doesn't mean that the performances on that apparatus are invalid. We have to accept all performances in the absence of any universal rules. Or can't you comprehend what I am saying? Or are you suggesting that you opinion is indeed far more valuable and accurate than mine? One thing is clear and that there is a lot of suspicion out there in this sport. Not the friendly sport that many think it is. Just the same old rivalries that you find in all endeavours where there are competitions. Maybe we should all forget about competing. No matter what I do in contests for the last two years in pinching the results haven't counted. That makes those places and trophies absolutely worthless. Or do you not see that? It all means nothing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Antonopoulos Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Now, Arthur, since when am I comparing my performance with any other variety? However, anyone who can lift more weight that the others in a pinch event should be credited with that weight. Don't know why I bother sometimes. No one is discrediting your lift on your pinch machine. No one can relate to your lift on your pinch machine. If you are not comparing your lift with a pinch of any variety you can not claim to have lifted more in the pinch than anyone else. Only to have lifted more than anyone else on your pinch machine which is an accepted fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Antonopoulos Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Humour me, what do you think the standard/s should be Vince? Remember this is something that must be accessible to all around the globe and something everyone can relate to. Try to remove some of your personal biases please when coming up with your solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Vigeant Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Everyone should buy THAT machine and ONLY that machine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gripmaniac Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Humour me, what do you think the standard/s should be Vince? I'd be interested to know this as well. . . . . . for the sake of further discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Basile Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 To answer Arthur. You state: "No one can relate to your lift on your pinch machine." Lots of people can relate. Why did you and Nick choose to use it in the last Aussie championships if you can't relate to it? That is total nonsense, Arthur, and you and Nick know it. What you and Nick are saying it that even though you used it the results don't mean much at all. End of story. Sorry you guys used it and set me up like that. I have spoken to Zorba about this business and he says the machine is a good test of pinch strength. I would rather listen to an exercise scientist who is experienced in gyms and who is educated about physiology. There is a bias against the machine and instead of now having most of that bias removed you and Nick have abandoned me and left me out to hang on these boards. Nice one. Why not do the honourable thing and support what was used in our contests? Why stab us in the back? I am well aware of what most people who post here think about records on machines. You facetiously ask me what the standard should be? How silly is that? Well, of course the pinch grip machine. There is nothing else close to this machine. It is a valid measure of pinching strength. It allows the maximum strength to be accurately measured. If you don't believe or accept this then that is okay. Lots of people stick to what they know. Why load your question with conditions that guarantee this standard being rejected? It would be possible to have other machines made up in time for other contests. We are not debating standards. We are arguing about what some people want to have and do not want to have as testing apparatus. How can anyone remove his personal biases? You continue to argue from a point of view that is typical of what many believe and you are oblivious to the fact that this is a bias. Just because others support you is not proof that your position is the superior one. How do we settle these disputes? Well, typically the guy who is made fun of and belittled is the one who loses. I find it nothing more that clique mentality. If people are fair-minded then they would be open to new and better solutions to problems which include finding better ways to test and measure various aspects of grip strength. Finally, let me deal with the preposterous statement of yours: "No one is discrediting your lift on your pinch machine." What do you call this thread? Ratification and support? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Please let this thread fall off the page. BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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