Bearcat 74 Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 You are arguing that people on this board don't think that 45's are the standard to get when it comes to a big pinch lift on plates? Have you read the board? Are you drinking? Ask people their pinch goal, it will include a pair of 45's and a blob, not beating Vince on his machine. Also, I never said that your record was easy, just not really acknowledged. The "Iron Bull" benched over 1000lbs assisted, not easy, but not recognized...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Vigeant Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Vince could you post a picture of your machine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Basile Posted January 5, 2004 Author Share Posted January 5, 2004 Gosh, Bearcat, I obviously know what most of you blokes think when it comes to pinch strength. There is a cult here and various things make one a real strong grip man. One of the boys. Like closing the #4 or pinching 2 X 45, cleaning the Inch or Blob. Yes, all great feats and good goals to aim at. I admit and accept all that. However, when it comes to giving everyone a fair go at establishing their best in the various grip events how do we do that? The strongman clique have their own standards and everyone knows what these are. However, if we insist that these are THE standards of acceptance then what point is it for anyone with small hands to even bother about pinching? It isn't the weight. So what is being measured is something else. Do you understand my point? I prefer to have a device that discriminates among the competitors and measures true grip strength. To do this we have to make things equal. The only way to do that is have widths adjustable. Also we have to standardise surfaces. Otherwise the performances cannot be compared. In the absence of official standards it seems that whoever wins the next European Pinch event will be the new champion regarding that strength. If Wade goes over it should be a good way to compare his strength with David and the other champions in Europe. That could become the default world championships. Those who cannot go can acquire the adjustable setup and see what they can do at home. From the information at PDA it seems like the "Groper" will be more suitable for pinching competitions because it is infinitely adjustable and does not change weight when widths are changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Basile Posted January 5, 2004 Author Share Posted January 5, 2004 Those who have not seen the Pinch Grip machine can visit my site and check out the many pictures there. Don't be put off by the site title! http://groups.msn.com/worldgripassociation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asultzer Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I am new here, but not new to lifting, so take my opinion as you will. I do think that 2x45's, blob, IM pinch block are and should be the standard. Just like bench press, squat and deadlift are the standard for powerlifting, not the cybex bench press apartus, smith machine squat or whatever device anyone could conceive for the deadlift. Free weights have always been the standard, not some machine that may take advantage of someones particular body mechanics. Not to take away from anyones lifts posted here, 200+ pounds on whatever aparatus for pinching sounds like a hell of a lift. Standardization is a very noble goal and also a very difficult thing to accomplish, just look at how screwed up powerlifting has become. Attempts to standardize and re-standardize powerlifting has removed all of its credibility and made it a joke. Then take a look at strongman. I watched the 2003 comp on ESPN new years night and I was stupified at the changes that have been made to the events in order to make them more entertaining for television. I would rather have the sport remain small in popularity than have it watered down with drama and rediculous events. It would be a shame, in my opinion so see this kind of thing happen to the grip community, which as I see it has been relatively untouched, at this point by BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Vigeant Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 It looks like a nice machine,with a very slippery pinch area. I just don't understand why you can't pinch half that weight (85k) with ANY implement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I prefer to have a device that discriminates among the competitors and measures true grip strength. To do this we have to make things equal. The only way to do that is have widths adjustable. How do you determine who uses what width? Have you established a hand length formula of some kind? How do you account for anomalies such as Wade's extra long thumb? These are serious questions. I see your point about Blobs possibly being impossible for someone with small hands. I've argued for that myself before. But let me say this bluntly: if you want something like your pinch machine to be the standard by which we measure pinch strength then you're going to have to make it at least moderately accessible to the masses. A standing invitation to play with your machine in Australia is generous, but the fact is that no one is going to make the trip for the express purpose of trying your machine. You've said previously that there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in your machine (as far as marketing and sales) so that's a good indication, at least at this point, that your machine will not be the standard. You keep pushing your pinch machine under the guise that it's for the betterment of the sport, but I'm just not convinced. Why? Partly because until about five minutes ago I didn't even know what the machine looked like. Standardization will take time and effort and it will likely travel it's natural course until something is found. I don't think that we're ready to standardize pinch equipment that rigidly yet, no matter what the product is. But I am only one person. If the masses speak and we find a definitive standard tomorrow then that's what it will be. BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcham Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 My 2 cents... (more like a couple of dollars... post got long ) I think that in the sense of people concentrating on feats here, Vince has a point. If we want to establish records we need standardised equipment, and i think we need equipment that can be adujsted to suit people's hands/styles. In oly lifting and power lifting the barbell gives you the freedom to adjust your grip width to suite your body and lifting style (actually so do the rules - they don't force specific stance, grip or style). Lots of grip feats are done on implements that don't provide this freedom: Blobs, 2x45s, IM pinch block, plate hubs, IM hub, thick bars, rolling thunder, etc.... at least with grippers we let people set the gripper I think David H's and Mikael's efforts to eliminate these problems from the UK and euro competions is a great step towards being able to make records. The next aussie grip champs will use the same equipment and events as well. All good !! BTW... about Vince's machine... I've used it and I got 52.5kgs but I've only I've lifted 2x35lb plates, so I lifted a lot more on the machine. Some of this is due to the surface, some is due to the block being locked into the machine (you can lean away from it), and some of it is because the lift is based on a "flag fall" (you don't have to hold for any real length of time - as long as the flag falls, the lift is done). Whatever it is... Vince you have bloody strong hands... you're just not going to convince everyone to use your equipment ... which limits the chances of your lifts being accepted as records Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Basile Posted January 5, 2004 Author Share Posted January 5, 2004 Hi Mark, When are you going to try out the new Hub on the machine? I got 30 kg with my left hand which caused something to pop and my hand is not fit for grip or any other kind of training at the moment. I pulled 32.5 kg with my right hand. Since you lifted much more than me on the free weights it would be interesting to see what you can do on the machine. The Cone is also there and you can ask the staff to change it for you. The current best is 115 kg and anything over 100 is good. The thick bar is available and very hard to lift because it rotates on grease. Thanks for posting in this thread. We all enjoyed pinching on the machine and doing the other events is just as much fun. Perhaps I will look into seeing whether an American company might be interested in building the machine over there for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcham Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Hi Vince... I've been very busy with xmas and moving house... I've moved a lot further away from your gym. I'll try and get out there in the next month or so. It is fun to lift on the machine... the flag fall especially makes it quite a different way to lift... just grip and rip! as long as the flag falls, you got it I guess the surface is the tricky bit as it's frustrating when you can't get the same grip on it every time... the IM block is probably just as difficult in this respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 If you hear a loud repetitve noise across cyberspace, it is the sound of me banging my head on the keyboard. Hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Basile Posted January 5, 2004 Author Share Posted January 5, 2004 To answer Mark. The surface of polished stainless was chosen for its smoothness and for its resistance to rusting. Whenever one reaches a limit it will feel slippery. Trust me on that one. I am sure if we sent the machine over to America and then England to let the lads have a go on it we might find some who don't mind it at all. Anyway, the machine has been around longer than most people have been online! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the swiss Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 If you hear a loud repetitve noise across cyberspace, it is the sound of me banging my head on the keyboard. Hard. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaibox Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I didn't have this headache 4 pages ago. I think asultzer concluded this mess well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omillar Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I have a question about this machine: From the way it looks, it seems to me that it would be possible to lift some (lesser) amount by pressing the palm of the hand against the block without even using the thumb on the other side. By this I mean pulling sideways on the block as it is being lifted - similar to the way an open hand can be used to slide something up a wall. Is this the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Basile Posted January 5, 2004 Author Share Posted January 5, 2004 The machine has linear bearings in the top plate. The shafts are chromed and induction hardened. It is possible to pull the apparatus to one side and still keep it moving. Whether we can lift some weight with the palm alone is something I will try and get back with. Some people have pointed out that the thumb is the weakest part of the pinch. Thus, if you have an apparatus that limits that weakest part then perhaps more can be pinched. I have found that more can be pinched with two hands on an apparatus than 2 times one hand alone. Sort of cancelling out the thumb weakness a bit. Some people observed what others were doing on the machine and tried various strategies to lift more. No strategy has helped lift much more than the strength of the hand allowed. If people can lift more on the machine than with free weights it means that there are other factors using free weights that are being tested and not pure pinching strength. What has to be accepted is that according to the laws of physics an object will move only if a force is applied that overcomes inertia and gravity. Thus, a lift of 50 kg means that more than 50 kg of force was applied in a vertical direction to cause the stack to rise. If we accept that the laws of physics apply to the machine then we have to accept that lifts done on it are representative of the strength of those who test their strength on it. The machine is a valid test of pinch grip strength and may be the best such test currently available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeP Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I like the idea of somebody claiming the strongest lift, then posting like $250 to anyone who can claim the prize. Wonder where the apollon axle, inch db, etc came from? No bitchin, no whining, just challenge each other. Come right out and say it, I am stronger than ______ and am offering him a wager to prove it. Show up, lift and if you lift more you win. You will never standardize gripping, and I'm not sure you should anyway. Think of all the fun debates and theories about who is stronger. But then again, look at KAZ, he had no motivation to silver dollar deadlift more that it took to win the particular contest he was in because they kept changing the apparatus enough that there was no way to set records.... Either way, it doesn't do alot of good to be out in BFE and challenge all comers without coming up with a way for the challenge to take place. If you want everyone to recognize your machine as a standard, fine, get at least one on this continent and maybe we can use it after the RT champs or something to see. Trust me, I feel for small handed guys. I was just commenting about the stone platforms being to tall for a guy 5'8" I can only do a 42.5#hex blob, my hand is just stretched max, but I will do more, gimme time.....and why does the pinch machine have to be a machine to be a standard? I could design a handle that is adjustable but you hang weights from. That way you could actually send one out and see what people can do. If I ever made a claim of a world record, I would make it available to all so I can really prove it....and I don't mean by saying "come to oklahoma and prove it" I mean I would find a way to do it. I'm stopping now, boring myself now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcham Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Vince I think the flag fall aspect is what really makes this lift uncomparable to other pinch lifts - if I only have to pull 2cm before the weight drops out of my hand and this still counted, then I too can lift 2x45lb plates! ...but not many would count this as a completed lift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Basile Posted January 6, 2004 Author Share Posted January 6, 2004 To answer Mark. We have had pinch lift contests since the 1960's. We called any lift off the floor a success. When we had the gym contests and the competition was close it was difficult to judge if the block actually cleared the floor. That is when I decided to build a machine to test pinch grip. It is obvious that the more weight that can be lifted the less the amount of time that you can hold onto the weight. Thus, we set the flag to fall at the minimum that indicated the stack had clearly been lifted. The competitor used a force greater than the weight on the stack for it to rise. When we are trying to measure maximum strength in pinching that is what must be done. As long as the machine is accurate then I can't see what the problem is. I can assure you lifting the heaviest weights takes a big effort. To answer Mike. I did offer money in the past for anyone who could beat my record. I think it was $500 two years ago. My partner at the gym thought better of it so that has not been continued. It would be interesting if someone came along and pinched 100 kg. I was hoping I could be that guy but I have been diverting energy into other aspects of grip and have not specialised on pinching. Maybe a $10,000 prize would stir some interest? I will personally offer A$1000 to anyone who can lift 100 kg on the machine in 2004, with one hand that is cleanly washed, and witnessed by myself. I have to redesign the machine so that the other events can more easily be done on them. Perhaps having the handles in a central position and letting the user stand on any side or even straddle the apparatus. That is possible and would be better for cone and thickhandled lifting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Pity Australia is so far away from the USA and Europe and Scandanavia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Antonopoulos Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Having used Vince's machine quite a few times, here are my observations. Firstly, you need large fingers, the thicker the better. Not necessarily large hands, but large fingers. The reason I think, is because you have more surface area in contact with the handle, and with the polished steel handle this is essential for a successful lift. Secondly, you must prepare your hands quite properly. They need to be very thoroughly washed. The best agent for this I have found is dishwashing liquid. Again, they need to be thoroughly clean. Also it really does help immensely if your rub your fingers, the tips especially, with a pumice stone when you wash them. This removes the dead, hard skin, leaving the fingers very smooth and soft and more suction-like I guess on the handle. If you have hard built up callouses, believe me they will get in the way. Thirdly the handle itself must be wiped down after each use, again thoroughly, with window cleaner. Some have surmised that by rubbing the handle quite quickly and tightly with a towel for a few seconds builds up heat in the handle making it quite stickier. Then you take the position on the platform. You do not grip the handle as you would a normal pinch. By this mean that you don't try to squeeze the handle right into your hand. You simply pinch it with your fingertips and thumb. As soon as you have the position, PULL, and quickly at that. The handle only needs to be pulled 2cm, if that, for the flag to fall. A problem that arises though is that the majority of the time you do not get the weight up first pull, but rather you pull a few times in quick succession before it comes up, even wiping the handle down again before continuing. At the Aussie grip champs we had to impose a time limit of 30 seconds for everyone to get their lift in to make it fair Some also have found that by pulling towards the body, makes the lift easier, and this was especially the case with the cone handle Vince made up. I was practically falling off the platform sideways when pulling it. The machine itself though, is very well built, a testament to Vince's manufacturing capabilities. I won't though, go into how I feel about it as an indicator of reflecting one's pinch strength. What I will say Vince is that you do possess a very good grip, not only in pinching, but allround as well. But unfortunately Vince, and we have all gone down this track before, no one can relate or even understand your efforts on this machine. No one in the world, apart from the few of us here in Sydney, can have a go on it, let alone spend the necessary time to train on it routinely and hone the technique and skill in preparation required. 90 odd kilos is just a number on a machine that people have no idea about. Also the 140 odd kilos with the skateboard grip handle on a bar again falls in the same category. What most on the board will understand though is something they can relate to. This means, something they have access to, like standard barbell plates. We all know that two 20kg plates is a standard that every one on this board judges a pinch lift by. Lift two 20kg plates and you get immediate recognition as a very good pincher. And that is a very fair call as everyone can understand and relate to the difficulty of this feat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 I did not read any of this post-just checked it now after all the responses and noticed a bit about needing to wash your hands pre lift. No thanks. When I train, I dont want to take time out to go scrub my hands between attempts-that isnt lifting, that is prep for surgery. I wil take chalk and rust, thanks anyway. Rick Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the swiss Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Thanks for the info Arthur. that does NOT make me want to use such an apparatus, though.... all this wiping and cleaning and rubbing and washing and leaning..... urkkk!!! david Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Pity Australia is so far away from the USA and Europe and Scandanavia! How true..... Mike P., I suspect you are the guy lifting the Inver Stone in the latest IM catalog. If so, heck of a job! Not only lifting it, but convincing your wife to go to Scotland and lift stones on your honeymoon. Both world class accomplishments in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff T Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 The main issue for me, like Mark and Arthur pointed out, is that the weight only has to be lifted 20mm for it to be a good lift. For me, that alone makes it very difficult to compare to any other feat. When I think of a pinch lift, I picture a hold and a degree of control, rather than an fast snatch at the weight as works best on Vince's machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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