Unbraced bending measuring standards

[stranger]

Why are the standards for unbraced bending 2" for Double Overhand and 40° for Double underhand and Reverse grip? 

Who came up with these numbers? 

 

[matek]

Just bumping this before it gets lost among the popular threads because I'm also interested

[stranger]

1 hour ago, matek said:

Just bumping this before it gets lost among the popular threads because I'm also interested

I feel like the 2" thing is because of Ironmind and the Red nail cert but I'm not sure where they got 2" from. 

My guess is that Randall asked John Brookfield and his answer was 2" lol

[Blacksmith513]

16 hours ago, stranger said:

Why are the standards for unbraced bending 2" for Double Overhand and 40° for Double underhand and Reverse grip? 

Who came up with these numbers? 

 

I may be completely wrong with this but between what i've read and my coaching calls with Jedd i always assumed it was because of time limits. When you change grips for the sweep and crush you lose time.  You

 

[stranger]

23 minutes ago, Blacksmith513 said:

I may be completely wrong with this but between what i've read and my coaching calls with Jedd i always assumed it was because of time limits. When you change grips for the sweep and crush you lose time.  You

 

I just feel that DU can be completed to 2" just like DO. 

And 40° seems so arbitrary. Like, 45° would at least be 1/4 bent, so why not 45?

[Blacksmith513]

47 minutes ago, stranger said:

I just feel that DU can be completed to 2" just like DO. 

And 40° seems so arbitrary. Like, 45° would at least be 1/4 bent, so why not 45?

Is 40 degrees like roughly degree a piece needs to be before going for the crush?  Just thinking out loud. I sorta bend by my own rules so Im not the most educated in this department.

[stranger]

1 hour ago, Blacksmith513 said:

Is 40 degrees like roughly degree a piece needs to be before going for the crush?  Just thinking out loud. I sorta bend by my own rules so Im not the most educated in this department.

40° probably starts the sweep portion. More than 90° would be the crush in my opinion.

[Blacksmith513]

59 minutes ago, stranger said:

40° probably starts the sweep portion. More than 90° would be the crush in my opinion.

From David Hornes Gripopaedia

[matek]

37 minutes ago, Blacksmith513 said:

From David Hornes Gripopaedia

Here we go. Of course, it's still somewhat arbitrary as @stranger said, because this could be 35 or 45, or even 50.

3 hours ago, stranger said:

I just feel that DU can be completed to 2" just like DO. 

DU started as a movement where you "give in" your wrist and push down the bar. If your arms are extended, the bend is done. Crushing it to sub 2" would make it a completely different bend, because the crushing part is essentially the same as with DO. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but I think this is the reason. That being said, honestly, around 70-90 degrees would make more sense to me for DU, if we choose a degree based on "physical limitations" as with reverse. Especially with modified DU, which is mostly a bend in front of or slightly lower than the chest. At the time of writing this post, the biggest DU benders are the biggest DO benders (biggest=bent the hardest bars/bolts using whatever wraps). There is no coincidence here. Doing DU that high still feels unnatural to me (but I'm trying), but for DO people is not even that high. And that mostly chest-crushing movement allows bending bars way above 40. Anyways, recently I've been doing something between conventional and modified, and 40 degrees is really not even close to the end of the movement. But keeping it simple is good; making it to let's say 90 degrees would only mean fewer cert bends, and the trend with super short DU bends would end (which is fun, I think). 
Overall, I think 40 is fine, and it would be strange to change the rules now, but making the time limit to a minute would make sense. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by matek

[Mike Sharkey]

7 hours ago, stranger said:

I just feel that DU can be completed to 2" just like DO. 

And 40° seems so arbitrary. Like, 45° would at least be 1/4 bent, so why not 45?

Modified DU where the wraps are farther out you can take it to crush zone as there is a lot of chest strength, and there are room for your hands to come together. I think originally the bends were done with wraps touching, maybe even pinkies touching so hard to go past 40 degrees. Also, if you can get a bar to 40 DU or Reverse it would be pretty rare that you wouldn't be able to crush it farther. Probably the Reverse style came first and the applied rules to DU? 

Not sure about the 2" for DO, but this style is definitely newer. 

@David_wigren knows a lot of these historical facts maybe he can chime in.

[bruce1337]

@David_wigren should be able to answer this as he was there when the rules were written

[David_wigren]

I don’t have a complete recollection of how it came about. I think the DU and reverse became separate events some time in 04-06. Before then you simply used the style that felt comfortable for you. As more adopted the DO style it become clear that the reverse and DU were simply not as efficient as DO and instead of ditching those styles completely they became separate events with separate rules.

I’m pretty sure David Horne and FBBC were the first to keep separate lists for DU and reverse starting in 05-06. I actually remember 45 degrees being the standard initially for 7” bars and 40 degrees for 6” and shorter. And at some point, I don’t remember when, the 45 degrees were ditched and 40 degrees became standard for all lengths.

For reverse it’s obvious why 40 degrees was selected. Because at that point your hands start to come together and it starts to become more of a circus trick instead of a strength feat. I don’t know why 40 degrees was settled for DU, probably for the convenience of aligning DU and reverse so you have the same rules for both.

[Tom Flesher]

On 4/21/2023 at 8:43 AM, David_wigren said:

I actually remember 45 degrees being the standard initially for 7” bars and 40 degrees for 6” and shorter. And at some point, I don’t remember when, the 45 degrees were ditched and 40 degrees became standard for all lengths.

For reverse it’s obvious why 40 degrees was selected. Because at that point your hands start to come together and it starts to become more of a circus trick instead of a strength feat. I don’t know why 40 degrees was settled for DU, probably for the convenience of aligning DU and reverse so you have the same rules for both.

I recall reading a very old set of contest rules or post or something by David Horne saying he was adjusting from 45 to 40 to be consistent with other bending feat lists. I wish I could remember the specifics. 

[matek]

40 minutes ago, Tom Flesher said:

I recall reading a very old set of contest rules or post or something by David Horne saying he was adjusting from 45 to 40 to be consistent with other bending feat lists. I wish I could remember the specifics. 

I searched a little bit, and it looks like there was an online reverse bending competition by David Horne, where the rules were initially like @David_wigren mentioned. Based on the reverse comp, somebody started an online DU comp where I found a post from David Horne:

Quote

We changed the 45-40 degree to 40 degree to be in line with FBBC, so that it's easy for certs and records to be done at contests. Basically all doing the same thing.

So it's probably best that this goes to 40 degrees as well.

 

[Blacksmith513]

https://www.ironmind-forum.com/forum/contests-performances/bending/710-red-nail-rule-change

 

This thread might be of some use.  I read it last night when I was half asleep... Learned some stuff. Going to re read it again.

[Mike Sharkey]

37 minutes ago, Blacksmith513 said:

https://www.ironmind-forum.com/forum/contests-performances/bending/710-red-nail-rule-change

 

This thread might be of some use.  I read it last night when I was half asleep... Learned some stuff. Going to re read it again.

Thanks for this. I forgot what a tool Randall is. Truly, he's the Dana White of the strength world.