Read this if you’ve closed a #3 and up!

[AdriaanRobert96]

20 minutes ago, John Knowlton said:

Sacrificing our bodies for the things we love to do

Amen, well it’s better than sitting around all day watching TV in my opinion.

One of the most important aspect of giving life meaning is having something that you look forward to everyday

We all find meaning in doing different things.

[DevilErik]

30 minutes ago, John Knowlton said:

Sacrificing our bodies for the things we love to do

LET THE BODIES HIT THE FLOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

[Blacksmith513]

51 minutes ago, John Knowlton said:

Sacrificing our bodies for the things we love to do

Yup. But I don’t bite anything or bend stuff over my nose. I’ve got my limits. I love the old time strongman mentality but Slim said he had vision problems from that.
 

I do try to go about things smarter now. I’d like to still be semi killing it in my early 70s.

[AdriaanRobert96]

5 hours ago, Blacksmith513 said:

Yup. But I don’t bite anything or bend stuff over my nose. I’ve got my limits. I love the old time strongman mentality but Slim said he had vision problems from that.
 

I do try to go about things smarter now. I’d like to still be semi killing it in my early 70s.

Well, if I am half as achieved at that age I’ve made it

[bdckr]

On 11/27/2022 at 1:14 PM, DevilErik said:

Get on a good strength training program like Wendler 531 or Conjugate bulk up put in the work and a 225 bench will a laughable goal for you in no time.

Some coaches say that the average healthy adult male should be able to bench 225 after just a year of training.

I am not in this category so I can't say whether it is accurate or not.

 

The average healthy adult male should be able to reach a 300 bench a 400 squat a 500 deadlift and a 225 strict standing press in their lifetime throw in a 100 LB weighted pull up(or chin up) to account for the bodyweight and you've got yourself an awesome goal to work towards.

 

(These are 100% accurate).

 

Maybe that's true of someone 180 lbs+, but that doesn't seem intuitively right for us smaller guys.  I'm 160 +/- 5 lbs and most of those numbers are higher than the elite standards.

Healthy except for a bum left knee, I consider myself to be average physically, and just from farting around, my max bench was 245 lbs, deadlift 375 lbs, but I've done a weighted chin with 148 lbs.  Mind you, I'm on the wrong side of 50 now, so I'm probably not going to improve on those numbers.  Maybe the 300 bench would have been *just* within reach if I had pushed it, but no way on the deadlift.  On the other hand, the 100 lb weighted chin is way too low compared to the other lifts.

[DevilErik]

30 minutes ago, bdckr said:

Maybe that's true of someone 180 lbs+, but that doesn't seem intuitively right for us smaller guys.  I'm 160 +/- 5 lbs and most of those numbers are higher than the elite standards.

Healthy except for a bum left knee, I consider myself to be average physically, and just from farting around, my max bench was 245 lbs, deadlift 375 lbs, but I've done a weighted chin with 148 lbs.  Mind you, I'm on the wrong side of 50 now, so I'm probably not going to improve on those numbers.  Maybe the 300 bench would have been *just* within reach if I had pushed it, but no way on the deadlift.  On the other hand, the 100 lb weighted chin is way too low compared to the other lifts.

Well you wouldn't be weighing 160 the idea is that you bulk and cut over the years and get as big and strong as you possibly can.

The idea is that people fill out their entire frame by bulking and cutting for like 10 years.

Some people might reach this standard in a few years, it might take a decade for others.

You can't get bigger or stronger while staying at the same bodyweight most of these goals can be easily achieved by dirty bulking the weighted pull up or chin up is just in there to account for bodyweight.

Also you said that you were just farting around the idea of this standard is that you put in 10 years of consistent hard work.

Of course you're not going to get anywhere near this standard by staying small.

A 100 LB weighted pull up is definitely not too low pull ups are often super hard for people with a lot of lower body mass and the goal is to get a jacked lower body as well not just a jacked upper body.

You really don't see many people with tree trunks for legs cranking out pull ups let alone do a weighted pull up with a 100 lbs added.

Edited November 29, 2022 by DevilErik

[Cannon]

41 minutes ago, bdckr said:

I'm 160 +/- 5 lbs and most of those numbers are higher than the elite standards.

Same here. And I tried 531 and read it to the letter and checked my ego and started LOW. Guess why I stopped Yep, something gave. Spoiler alert, it was by back. 

[climber511]

On 11/28/2022 at 11:19 AM, Jermiah Merciconah said:

I doubt there's a feeling more frustrating for a gripster than hitting a milestone and slowly going backwards, grippers seem to scale with everything from humidity to the damn moon phase

I'd love to be only going backwards "slowly" - I think I fell off a cliff and fast as I'm falling.  LOL

[C8Myotome]

11 hours ago, Cannon said:

You also have to be able to endure the training. It's yet another angle of genetic potential. I have found in my life that if I push hard at anything, something gives. I get hurt. I know guys that just blast their bodies and take the abuse and keep rolling. I have hurt myself doing everything I'm interested in... Grip, running, basketball, lifting, triple jump, bodyweight exercises... I've actually hurt myself doing rehab so I wouldn't get hurt doing the things I enjoy.  

Think about the career of like Lebron James versus a Grant Hill or Penny Hardaway. That's what I mean.   

Maybe I'm the opposite. Aside from a leg break as a kid from jumping off the top of a slide I've never had a real injury before, and I've done things much stupider & dangerous than gripping/lifting (I come from a background of fast motorcycles & fire arts - I'm profesionally trained in fire breathing & have performed it in shows before, however I decided to quit cause it's dumb).

I've definitely had things flare up before on my body but I detect these warning signs that something is wrong and start figuring out how to treat it. A lot of searching for stuff online to try to learn to self-treat is how I ended up in physical therapy school (almost done with my 2nd year of it). I've never had anything just "snap" & become irreparable. I've gotten shoulder impingement from benching too much, I had a super inflamed QL muscle on one side which I had to learn how to do myofascial release & stretch on, I got overuse tendonitis from starting grip & doing too many different implements at once/maxing out on everything constantly. I've had tennis elbow, an irritated proximal hamstring tendon from doing paused deadlift triples at weight I wasn't ready for it yet. But after learning about anatomy on a doctorate level & dissecting a human, I'm a bit more cautious with powerlifting in general now - I also don't low bar squat just to squat heavier anymore, I squat high bar & lighter to train quads more. I just have a better idea of how serious injuries can be, that you only have 1 of each part on your body, not everything can repair or regrow, if you tear an important ligament you either just live without it or get a surgical graft from another ligament or tendon on your body. It's definitely hard to watch people doing equipped lifting with their knees wrapped super tight and watch their legs just snap. None of that is worth it to me. I at least like mainly grip training now cause I can lift pretty moderate even though still with powerlifting style, I'm not risking a lifelong injury just to try to add 5 lbs more to a lift nobody on earth cares about anyways. And I take grip recovery very seriously too. I also was wondering where people talk about recovery on this site. I'm equally interested in recovery methods as I am getting stronger as they go hand in hand. I spend a LOT of time stretching, & doing active recovery stuff. I was thinking there should be a separate section on it like there is a section for training logs etc.

[bdckr]

3 hours ago, DevilErik said:

Well you wouldn't be weighing 160 the idea is that you bulk and cut over the years and get as big and strong as you possibly can.

The idea is that people fill out their entire frame by bulking and cutting for like 10 years.

Some people might reach this standard in a few years, it might take a decade for others.

You can't get bigger or stronger while staying at the same bodyweight most of these goals can be easily achieved by dirty bulking the weighted pull up or chin up is just in there to account for bodyweight.

Also you said that you were just farting around the idea of this standard is that you put in 10 years of consistent hard work.

Of course you're not going to get anywhere near this standard by staying small.

A 100 LB weighted pull up is definitely not too low pull ups are often super hard for people with a lot of lower body mass and the goal is to get a jacked lower body as well not just a jacked upper body.

You really don't see many people with tree trunks for legs cranking out pull ups let alone do a weighted pull up with a 100 lbs added.

For context, I was 135 lbs before starting.  

All I'm saying is that those numbers for the "average" guy probably require at least a starting definition based on bodyweight and the degree of obsessiveness and dedication to strength training.  And even then, the 300/400/500/100 standards don't seem equally attainable.

I see myself as an average smaller guy.  *All* my numbers are "farting around" numbers.  All are within the last 4 years.

Bench seems realistic.  My bench was 245 or 242 x 3, and I think 300 would have been possible with some dedicated focused training.

Deadlift seems unrealistic.  My best deadlift was 375.  Mid-400s possible?  Probably.  Definitely not 500.

No idea about the squat.  Because of my left knee, I've mostly tested my limits with pistol squats, and I've done 8 on each leg with a 20 kg KB racked.

Chin/pull-up seems too easy.  If I can do 148,somebody like me but with an extra 48 pounds in their legs can do 100 lbs.

[bdckr]

3 hours ago, Cannon said:

Same here. And I tried 531 and read it to the letter and checked my ego and started LOW. Guess why I stopped Yep, something gave. Spoiler alert, it was by back. 

I hear you.  Recovery from any minor tweaks just takes way longer now.  I've kept on lifting to stay strong and able-bodied.  Lifting heavy for the sake of lifting heavy holds no appeal. 

For me, building up strength has been like saving for retirement.  I knew that at some point, I would start losing strength, and the goal was to accumulate as much strength and ability as possible before starting to lose it from <up here> instead of <down here> so that it would take longer to drop down to a point where I am no longer able to do things.  Training would have no value to me if it were causing me to lose the ability to do things from injury.

[DevilErik]

6 hours ago, bdckr said:

For context, I was 135 lbs before starting.  

All I'm saying is that those numbers for the "average" guy probably require at least a starting definition based on bodyweight and the degree of obsessiveness and dedication to strength training.  And even then, the 300/400/500/100 standards don't seem equally attainable.

I see myself as an average smaller guy.  *All* my numbers are "farting around" numbers.  All are within the last 4 years.

Bench seems realistic.  My bench was 245 or 242 x 3, and I think 300 would have been possible with some dedicated focused training.

Deadlift seems unrealistic.  My best deadlift was 375.  Mid-400s possible?  Probably.  Definitely not 500.

No idea about the squat.  Because of my left knee, I've mostly tested my limits with pistol squats, and I've done 8 on each leg with a 20 kg KB racked.

Chin/pull-up seems too easy.  If I can do 148,somebody like me but with an extra 48 pounds in their legs can do 100 lbs.

You don't need a base at all and you don't have to be obsessed either you just have to be dedicated.

I don't think you're average height so you're not the average guy which means that these standards do not apply to you.

An "average smaller guy" does not exist you are either average or small.

You can't compare pistol squats to a back squat no one is going to get big strong legs by doing pistol squats I don't care how much weight you can hold in your hands.

These standards are not unrealistic for someone who's average height and puts in a decade of work period.

I am not going to argue with you because there is nothing to argue about this is the standard for people with average height whether someone is able to reach these numbers or not is none of my concern.

Just because you or someone else thinks these numbers are unattainable doesn't mean they're unattainable for the majority of people willing to put in a decade of consistent hard work.

People are always trying to find the exception to the rule and that's just not how things work in life we're talking about the average person here.

This was my final reply I am tired of arguing on this forum.

Edited November 30, 2022 by DevilErik

[jchapman]

You can't win a horse race riding a donkey.

[bdckr]

7 hours ago, DevilErik said:

You don't need a base at all and you don't have to be obsessed either you just have to be dedicated.

I don't think you're average height so you're not the average guy which means that these standards do not apply to you.

An "average smaller guy" does not exist you are either average or small.

You can't compare pistol squats to a back squat no one is going to get big strong legs by doing pistol squats I don't care how much weight you can hold in your hands.

These standards are not unrealistic for someone who's average height and puts in a decade of work period.

I am not going to argue with you because there is nothing to argue about this is the standard for people with average height whether someone is able to reach these numbers or not is none of my concern.

Just because you or someone else thinks these numbers are unattainable doesn't mean they're unattainable for the majority of people willing to put in a decade of consistent hard work.

People are always trying to find the exception to the rule and that's just not how things work in life we're talking about the average person here.

This was my final reply I am tired of arguing on this forum.

Arguing?  I thought we were having a discussion.  You shared an opinion.  And I shared my reasons for having a slightly different opinion.

It sounds like we both agree that for a man to reach those 300/400/500/100 standards, he should probably be at least 180 lbs.  I can see that you're in the Netherlands, so maybe it's an issue of language and our different ideas of how "average" is used in conversation.

When someone says "The average healthy adult male should be able to ....", that typically doesn't mean that we're only talking about the top 60% (> 180 lbs) or even the top 50% (> 189 lbs) of men by weight. 

With one of the heaviest populations (by country) in the world, the average (mean) weight of men in the US was 197.1 lbs in 2016, with a median of 189.4 lbs.  If I were in the US (I'm Canadian), my weight would land somewhere in the 20-25th percentile.  On a population level, I believe that weight follows mostly a normal distribution, so that most (68% of) men will fall within 1 standard deviation of the mean or 2 standard deviations of the mean (95% of men).  A 1 standard deviation range would be approximately 153 lbs to 241 lbs (which includes me at 160+/-5), while a 2 standard deviation range would be approximately 136 lbs to 284 lbs. (I'm cheating a bit, I don't want to do the research or calculations, I'm using the percentile ranges for 2016, but those ranges should be close enough for this discussion)

Because weighted chin-ups and pull-ups aren't contested or trained like the other big lifts, there's less agreement about standards.  Given how easy it was for me to hit 148, I think the threshold for elite , which is where all your other numbers are, should be at least 175-180 lbs.  My other lifts have fallen off by about 10% off their peaks, but I am still doing chins with 90lbs x 8 reps x 2 sets and 100 lbs x 5-6 reps x 3 sets every 2 weeks, 100 lbs seems much too low.

[DevilErik]

59 minutes ago, bdckr said:

Arguing?  I thought we were having a discussion.  You shared an opinion.  And I shared my reasons for having a slightly different opinion.

It sounds like we both agree that for a man to reach those 300/400/500/100 standards, he should probably be at least 180 lbs.  I can see that you're in the Netherlands, so maybe it's an issue of language and our different ideas of how "average" is used in conversation.

When someone says "The average healthy adult male should be able to ....", that typically doesn't mean that we're only talking about the top 60% (> 180 lbs) or even the top 50% (> 189 lbs) of men by weight. 

With one of the heaviest populations (by country) in the world, the average (mean) weight of men in the US was 197.1 lbs in 2016, with a median of 189.4 lbs.  If I were in the US (I'm Canadian), my weight would land somewhere in the 20-25th percentile.  On a population level, I believe that weight follows mostly a normal distribution, so that most (68% of) men will fall within 1 standard deviation of the mean or 2 standard deviations of the mean (95% of men).  A 1 standard deviation range would be approximately 153 lbs to 241 lbs (which includes me at 160+/-5), while a 2 standard deviation range would be approximately 136 lbs to 284 lbs. (I'm cheating a bit, I don't want to do the research or calculations, I'm using the percentile ranges for 2016, but those ranges should be close enough for this discussion)

Because weighted chin-ups and pull-ups aren't contested or trained like the other big lifts, there's less agreement about standards.  Given how easy it was for me to hit 148, I think the threshold for elite , which is where all your other numbers are, should be at least 175-180 lbs.  My other lifts have fallen off by about 10% off their peaks, but I am still doing chins with 90lbs x 8 reps x 2 sets and 100 lbs x 5-6 reps x 3 sets every 2 weeks, 100 lbs seems much too low.

I am talking about the average person that has filled out his entire frame over the course of a decade of training so you take the average person I think the average height in the US is like 5'8-5'9 I don't know the average height of Canadians you let them bulk and cut over the course of a decade and they should be able to reach these numbers.

That still means that the average person (someone of average height) should be able to reach these numbers.

So yes he probably will be 180 LBS so we agree on that.

It's definitely not a language issue you just misunderstood me.

An average person is still an average person after bulking and cutting for over a decade because you can't change your height which means that you can only gain so much muscle mass.

A taller person would destroy these numbers because the taller you are the more muscle mass you're able to gain over the course of that decade of training and the bigger you are the stronger you are.

The chin up or pull up standard is only in there to account for bodyweight so that people don't get crazy fat in order to reach the other numbers.

I am used to people arguing with me so my apologies for being a bit hostile I am glad we're able to have a normal discussion.

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by DevilErik

[bdckr]

39 minutes ago, DevilErik said:

I am talking about the average person that has filled out his entire frame over the course of a decade of training so you take the average person I think the average height in the US is like 5'8-5'9 I don't know the average height of Canadians you let them bulk and cut over the course of a decade and they should be able to reach these numbers.

That still means that the average person (someone of average height) should be able to reach these numbers.

So yes he probably will be 180 LBS so we agree on that.

It's definitely not a language issue you just misunderstood me.

An average person is still an average person after bulking and cutting for over a decade because you can't change your height which means that you can only gain so much muscle mass.

A taller person would destroy these numbers because the taller you are the more muscle mass you're able to gain over the course of that decade of training and the bigger you are the stronger you are.

The chin up or pull up standard is only in there to account for bodyweight so that people don't get crazy fat in order to reach the other numbers.

I am used to people arguing with me so my apologies for being a bit hostile I am glad we're able to have a normal discussion.

 

 

 

Sure, we could talk about average height instead of weight, but we're on a strength training forum so  the default groupings would be by weight and weight classes.

 

Since it's the gripboard, we could also talk about averages for hand size, too, but then that would certainly devolve into an argument. 

[DevilErik]

1 minute ago, bdckr said:

Sure, we could talk about average height instead of weight, but we're on a strength training forum so  the default groupings would be by weight and weight classes.

 

Since it's the gripboard, we could also talk about averages for hand size, too, but then that would certainly devolve into an argument. 

Well the taller you are the more you're going to weigh by default unless you're malnourished.

Weight classes are pretty much height classes in disguise.

Of course there are exceptions to this rule.

Edited November 30, 2022 by DevilErik

[ChimpGrip]

On 11/30/2022 at 9:21 AM, bdckr said:

Arguing?  I thought we were having a discussion.  You shared an opinion.  And I shared my reasons for having a slightly different opinion.

It sounds like we both agree that for a man to reach those 300/400/500/100 standards, he should probably be at least 180 lbs.  I can see that you're in the Netherlands, so maybe it's an issue of language and our different ideas of how "average" is used in conversation.

When someone says "The average healthy adult male should be able to ....", that typically doesn't mean that we're only talking about the top 60% (> 180 lbs) or even the top 50% (> 189 lbs) of men by weight. 

With one of the heaviest populations (by country) in the world, the average (mean) weight of men in the US was 197.1 lbs in 2016, with a median of 189.4 lbs.  If I were in the US (I'm Canadian), my weight would land somewhere in the 20-25th percentile.  On a population level, I believe that weight follows mostly a normal distribution, so that most (68% of) men will fall within 1 standard deviation of the mean or 2 standard deviations of the mean (95% of men).  A 1 standard deviation range would be approximately 153 lbs to 241 lbs (which includes me at 160+/-5), while a 2 standard deviation range would be approximately 136 lbs to 284 lbs. (I'm cheating a bit, I don't want to do the research or calculations, I'm using the percentile ranges for 2016, but those ranges should be close enough for this discussion)

Because weighted chin-ups and pull-ups aren't contested or trained like the other big lifts, there's less agreement about standards.  Given how easy it was for me to hit 148, I think the threshold for elite , which is where all your other numbers are, should be at least 175-180 lbs.  My other lifts have fallen off by about 10% off their peaks, but I am still doing chins with 90lbs x 8 reps x 2 sets and 100 lbs x 5-6 reps x 3 sets every 2 weeks, 100 lbs seems much too low.

I agree as well. And there’s always exceptions. I can’t speak for squats or deadlift since I have a herniated disc, but I have come extremely close to a 400 pound bench (with calibrated plates) at 194 bodyweight but have fallen short due to various injuries and setbacks. I will get it in 2023.