Problems With 20 Rep Squat Form

[Guest adivaris]

I recently began the supersquats 20 rep squat program and tho i showed gains the first few weeks(which i attribute to me finding my challenge weight), im having problems making gains currently. I know squat form is very important and i can use perfect form with warm up weights, but i find myself in a catch-22 when training heavy. In order to blast up fast enough to overcome the inertia of the bar with my legs, I end up rounding my back on the way up. I have found when i try to not round my back i slow down my ascent and cant put max effort out with my legs. One could reason that my back is not strong enough, but i can lift one and a half times my squat in my deadlift. So either I put max effort out and my back rounds out, or i use perfect form but slow my ascent and dont tire out my legs sufficiently(well thats my logic i might be missing something). Also I cant seem to reach complete exhaustian because my form deteriorates by the last 5 reps. And i get nervous... Course since its a sub-maximal weight, a little slackage on form may not be that dangerous.. so i need an educated opinion.

whats more, last time i tried to correct my form(keep back arched), i actually over-extended my knees past my toes( i know big no-no) and slightly aggravated my left knee. Heh, also had some dufus come by to tell me i was squatting too low, told him no actually i was overextending my knees but thanks for the concern... man the misinformation going around these days...

anyway, i appreciate any advice from more experienced lifters. Im not going to say Im a hard gainer... I know I must not be training hard enough, but would appreciate any advice that would steer me in the right direction

[bencrush]

I would recommend the Cyberpump Iron Page, Power and Bulk, Old School Strength Training. This is a great site here...but mostly devoted to grip training. Good luck in your search. I am a HUGE fan of 20 rep squats, but wouldn't consider myself an "advanced" trainee, so I don't feel qualified enough to answer your question.

Ben Edwards

[Guest Rooster]

I dont believe you need to worry about speed on your ascent. Just take your time on the way up. By the time you hit 15 with a good challenge weight you will be pretty spent anyway.

How is your stance? Hopefully at least wider than shouldr width. Is hard to answer your question w/o more info. Definitely doing something wrong. Lack of hip or heel flexibility maybe. Speed is not the key. Steady on your pace. Try putting your feet at 45 degree angle. About all I can think of off hand.

[AP]

How deep are you squatting? Its pretty normal for your back to get fatigued if you are going to parallel or above, especially if you are not wearing a belt. For this reason, I prefer to do 20 reppers with full squats. At least, make sure that you are getting a good parallel in your depth.

Also, it sounds like you might not be in your groove yet, how long have you been squatting? If it hasn't been for very long, you might stick with a program using fewer reps, 20 reppers are pretty challenging mentally. If you stick with 20 reppers make sure you have some type of cycle that you work on otherwise I think (personally) that they are too taxing CNS and metally wise to work well.

For example

wk1 200x 20 easy: wk2 220 x 20 pretty difficult: wk3 240x 20 bustin' your ass

then cycle back down to

wk4 205 x 20 easy: wk5 225 x 20 ect...

This is pretty crude but you get the idea.

You can't just do

wk1 240 x 20 bust your ass: wk2 245 x 18 gave up: wk3 245 x 19 ouch

wk4 245 x 17 hmm what's going on?

But you might already have figured this out...

[Guest gripmaster316]

Try not adding so much weight AP. Only add about 5 pounds a week. Start at 220, then at week 2 do 225, then week three do 230 etc. I believe this is what it says in the book. Doing this method for six weeks I have gained 30 pounds on my squat. The thing is the squat weight I am doing now for 20, felt exactly like the squat weight I started at. I know five pounds a week doesn't seem like a huge gain, but remember the long term progress... in 36 weeks you can safely add 180-200 pounds to your squat.

[The Mac]

I'm not a great fan of micro-loading, but the small weight increases may be a very good idea.

If you're still having fun with it, I would defintely stick with it and try to work through the form problems, even if that means backing down to 135lbs and starting up again from there.

[Clay Edgin]

I had a problem leaning forward and rounding my back as well. What helped me was to really tighten my abs on the way down and to not point my elbows back. If you're holding onto the bar and your elbows point backwards, then your shoulders will roll forward and you'll end up rounding your back. Think about keeping those elbows pointing down and when you've got the bar on your shoulders, really grab that frickin thing and try to pull it closer to you. This, along with tightening up my abs, has helped me keep my upper body rigid and really improved my squat form. And most importantly, I've increased the weights quickly.

[AP]

no, what I'm saying is that most people can't add 5lbs per week especially not consistantly - that would add up to 250lbs in a year. The sample program that I showed would have a person trying to add 5 lbs to their 20 rep max only every 3 weeks. That's why its a cycle and not just a program of adding weight. I see tons of people that just think that they can add weight every week, whether its trying for a new max, a new pr set of ten or twenty. See my second example, it shows a person trying to acheive a 245 x 20 but they're just banging their head against a wall because they try the same weight every week. I see this all the time, "oh man I'm trying to get 245x 20 but I got it 18 times then 19 but then last week only 16 times" You get burned out mentally bustin' your ass on the same weight but never getting it. You're reinforcing failure, if you busted your ass last week and failed, and busted your ass the week before and failed, its in your head that you will fail this time too, since you haven't done anything different. And if you finally get 245x20 then what do you do? Try 250 the next week, there's no chance in hell that you'd expect to get 20....If you've been squatting low reps for a while now you should be able to put 30+ lbs on your 20reppers by doing just about anything 20rep wise. Its what you do once you plateau that counts...

Edited November 26, 2003 by AP

[Patrik_F]

The program is only meant for 6 weeks. It isnt meant to be used for 36 weeks or whatever, no way you can use 20 reps squats for 36 weeks and make gains, you will overtrain in no time.

It is better to use the 20 rep squat program for 6 weeks maybe once or twice a year.

[Sean Dockery]

Here's a great explanation of squat form.

http://danjohn.org/squat101_files/frame.html

Not tech savy so you'll have to cut and paste. By the by, Dan John's site is great all the way around. If you've got a few hours and want to hear some great thoughts on lifting for a lifetime, browse around.

My gauge of intensity in 20 rep squats...if I can stand within 5 minutes of the set, it wasn't heavy enough. I got up to 365 on these bad boys last summer. Taking a break (I agree with Patrik B on cycling this workout), but then I'm aiming for 405.

Remember to breathe. Keep your head up. And ignore the idiots asking if you're ok.

[The Mac]

Actually, whilst it can be annoying, I always find it somewhat endearing when people ask if I am OK. It at least shows that they care, even if their info is a little bit wrong.

[mANVIL]

Clay made some good points about tensing the abs to make you more rigid, and not letting the elbows point back. In addition to those try keeping your head back, and looking up or at least even. Also try squatting w/ a mirror so you can see where on the lift you are rounding your back and maybe you can change your form accordingly.

-Matt

[Patrik_F]

The only time I lean forward is when the weight gets really heavy, a little cheating to improve leverage. My back is much stronger than my legs.

[Guest adivaris]

Really good advice on keeping abs tight and elbows down.. I usually kept my elbows out behind me and actually made a conscious effort to do this. I will try your suggestions at my next training session.

Yes, I did gain well for my first few weeks and though I did not gain 30 pounds of muscle, i added a few pounds to my squat. And no I do not expect to add 5 pounds a week to any lift, I measure my gains in an extra rep here and there. Ive been training a year now and already have slowed on beginners gains.

Thanks all for your suggestions. I think I'll switch back to a 5x5 system with a heavier weight. My back should have no problems with 5 rep sets.

Heh, and the best news of all... I FINALLY closed my #2 tonight . Been stuck a hairs width away from closing for a few months. Busted out with 4 days of KTA and .. well there u go , should prob take it easy now tho.

[Guest adivaris]

Oh ya, I almost forgot... I usually squat either to parallel or between parallel and rock bottom. I used to do powerlifting style squats wide stance but recently narrowed my stance a bit. I think i might widen my stance a bit as it seems to improve my form.

[Guest gripmaster316]

The program is only meant for 6 weeks. It isnt meant to be used for 36 weeks or whatever, no way you can use 20 reps squats for 36 weeks and make gains, you will overtrain in no time.

It is better to use the 20 rep squat program for 6 weeks maybe once or twice a year.

I have read the book, and I can't remember it saying anything about only doing the 20 rep system for 6 weeks. The book just suggests that you will gain "30 pounds of muscle" in six weeks. You can still continue it. Perry Radar started doing sqauts with just a bar, and then with the 20 rep system was able to gain about 260 pounds on his squat, and I believe he squated 300 for 20 and I believe that it was a longer time frame then 6 weeks. If micro loading doesn't work for you then don't do it. It has been working for me.

Edited November 30, 2003 by gripmaster316

[Landon]

Good for hypertrophy, bad for strength training since training slow all the time with that rep range, you'll become slow, thus not able to have great force production on the barbell.

[Guest adivaris]

Ya, I think I'll replace the 20 rep program right now with some 5x5 on squat and deadlift, and some cleans. I want to see what I can squat with 5x5 right now. In a few months if I hit a squat plateau I'll return to the 20 rep program.

I'de like to do some singles work on the squat but as i mentioned before I'm a beginner and would like to have some spotters for that(currently all I have is a squat rack... my gyms horrible, doesnt even have any power racks...)

[Landon]

Ya, I think I'll replace the 20 rep program right now with some 5x5 on squat and deadlift, and some cleans. I want to see what I can squat with 5x5 right now. In a few months if I hit a squat plateau I'll return to the 20 rep program.

I'de like to do some singles work on the squat but as i mentioned before I'm a beginner and would like to have some spotters for that(currently all I have is a squat rack... my gyms horrible, doesnt even have any power racks...)

How do you squat? Weightlifting style, or powerlifting style? Also, if you plateau, going to the 20 rep program is not the answer. Believe me, that 20 rep program is ONLY good for people who are just starting out with lifting, or want to increase mass. By doing that program you'll lose speed-strength. Squatting all the time to increase your squat will only get you so far. You never see the strongest squatters squatting all the time. They do derivatives of it that work the same muscles (i.e. good mornings, zerchers, etc) Same goes for bench. You'll never see the strongest benchers - raw or shirt - simply bench to get a bigger bench.