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From weak to moderately strong


Gripperer

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  • 2 months later...

It's funny how routines can change so much within a year. For me at least.

I took up grappling once a week, and it is a killer. Little injuries crop up. Muscles hurt in weird places. So I'm learning to pace myself, work on "feel," and include variety, exercises specific to grappling, and some mobility work, with plenty of rest and no crazy volume.

I only do two workouts a week (with the third session being actually grappling). Both workouts have the same "feeder" routine of ten exercises, and that includes mobility work, break falls and rolls, and things like neck bridges, duck walks, push ups, pull ups etc. The actual working sets utilise a Bulgarian bag (workout A, 30kg) and a strongman sandbag (workout B, 50kg) and include things like the arm throw and spins, or sandbag rollover, where I bear hug the bag, flat back on the floor, and roll with it from side to side. Toughens the core.

What about grip? Some of the exercises require some grip, but not a whole lot. Pull ups for example, I perform using thick grips, but they're only performed for one set twice a week. Sandbag carries with an open hand grip? Yeah, some grip stimulus there, and there is plenty on the Bulgarian bag. On workout B I have "grip work" as one of the exercises, and typically I am choosing (based on feel), 3-4 exercises to freestyle on and finish out the routine. Could be grippers, plate curls and some wrist levers, or it could be door frame hangs, wrist curls and reverse wrist curls. This is just once a week.

Oddly, I've noticed my grip is retaining its strength. I'm still pulling an 80kg on the dynamometer and I feel like the CoC2 is closing more easily than ever. Maybe my memory is off but I don't remember being able to clink the handles together repeatedly, and I especially didn't expect this when I picked it up the other day for the first time in at least two months.

I think there's definitely something to be said for less is more. I think it was Jedd Johnson who said he's realised in later years that you don't have to kill yourself with volume to get strong. I was also reading/watching about some studies recently, that found the majority of benefit from working out is found within just one good set per workout, or was it per week, before the returns sharply diminish (two sets is still better, but not much better, and three sets is better still, but hardly at all compared to the effort).

So now I'm focusing all that energy I used on volume, for rest instead.

Edited by Gripperer
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  • 2 months later...

I've rebounded to and fro between a very structured routine and one that is flexible. Additionally, I've experimented with routines that are both restricted (choosing a limited number of "bang-for-buck" exercises and hammering them for lots of sets) and varied (performing a very wide range of exercises for minimal sets). 

I think I'm heading toward reaching a sweet spot where I combine a twice-a-week structured, varied grappling routine (groundwork with stretching, push-ups, rolls, animal walks, neck work etc.) with a flexible general strength approach, where I select from a limited number of exercises and perform them in a modified grease-the-groove type fashion (long rest periods, high frequency, high volume). 

I'm finding thus far that this is slightly easier to manage than a completely structured routine, as I can potentially work out every day if I need to, or take advantage of free time and motivation by using a whole day to squeeze in volume, then take off the next one or two when life takes over. 

For general strength I'm finding that the best "bang-for-buck" exercises are:

- Pull-ups with FatGripz Extreme

- One-arm push press with FatGripz

- Spin-to-arm throw with heavy Bulgarian bag

- Bulgarian bag lunges

- Sandbag squats

- Suitcase carries

- Front and shoulder sandbag carries

This provides good grip stimulus on its own, but I am filling in gaps with the plate curls/grippers and some freestyle stuff on a towel and with a stick, which when paid attention to are incredibly effective burners at the end of a workout. 

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Nice routine... After a few months How are you doing balancing working out and BJJ? 

 

I still really want to do it, mainly because my social life has dwindled down to drinking with 60 year old construction workers 😂.....but i'm real serious about my grip goals right now and don't want any detriments. 

One thing that might be a good addition to your routine is a rolling handle. Could be wrong I feel like that would really help with grappling. 

Edited by Blacksmith513
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9 hours ago, Blacksmith513 said:

Nice routine... After a few months How are you doing balancing working out and BJJ? 

 

I still really want to do it, mainly because my social life has dwindled down to drinking with 60 year old construction workers 😂.....but i'm real serious about my grip goals right now and don't want any detriments. 

One thing that might be a good addition to your routine is a rolling handle. Could be wrong I feel like that would really help with grappling. 

I keep the grappling to once a week, but keep up the ground training to keep me fit against similar demands.

Something that is apparent when gi grappling is that grip is important, but finger toughness is even more so. What I mean is, in grappling you are better off having a 60kg grip with iron fingertips, than an 80kg grip with fingers like an office worker (which really can happen even to us gripsters, I mean, when you actually think about it, much of the traditional grip stuff we do is very easy on the fingertips; think pinch, thick bar, grippers, lever etc., none of it is demanding on the fingertips as you would find in grappling or climbing).

On the rolling handle, yes good idea, although I didn't mention that the FatGripz Extreme is actually a rolling handle itself; I took away the padding from the pull-up bar and the bar is pretty thin, and the FatGripz roll quite freely even under pressure, like a rolling handle. One of my proudest strength feats is being able to knock out a set of ten good pull-ups on them, especially with short fingers.

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4 minutes ago, Gripperer said:

I keep the grappling to once a week, but keep up the ground training to keep me fit against similar demands.

Something that is apparent when gi grappling is that grip is important, but finger toughness is even more so. What I mean is, in grappling you are better off having a 60kg grip with iron fingertips, than an 80kg grip with fingers like an office worker (which really can happen even to us gripsters, I mean, when you actually think about it, much of the traditional grip stuff we do is very easy on the fingertips; think pinch, thick bar, grippers, lever etc., none of it is demanding on the fingertips as you would find in grappling or climbing).

On the rolling handle, yes good idea, although I didn't mention that the FatGripz Extreme is actually a rolling handle itself; I took away the padding from the pull-up bar and the bar is pretty thin, and the FatGripz roll quite freely even under pressure, like a rolling handle. One of my proudest strength feats is being able to knock out a set of ten good pull-ups on them, especially with short fingers.

Yeah eventually I'll probably start.. That or rock climbing. I need something fun to do after work and i'm not joining no book club. But I'd like to roll twice a week.

You are right.. I'd like to think I have pretty tough fingertip from years of construction, and actually I try do do some yoga holds on my finger tips.. Not for strength, but that extra stretch feels good on the extensors. Hub lifting  might be a good one for you to try too.

good luck with everything.

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Random thought which I would welcome opinions on, although not strictly grip related. 

For grappling I know a few people who jog for their cardio, or ride bikes. 

I wonder if this is just a social construct... I mean, I would think sandbag carries or Bulgarian bag work would offer equal or better benefit, because it is more closely replicating the demands of grappling. 

Running and biking is of course great cardiovascular exercise, although muscularly I see them as relatively one dimensional and not massively applicable to grappling. Running for example leads to strong lower legs, which isn't of great benefit for a BJJ guy (maybe for a judo or wrestling guy though). 

Of the more popular forms of cardio, swimming may be a good or even the best option, because again it more closely replicates the demand (full body strength-endurance required at odd angles).

Running in particular seems to be considered a staple for some people but I tend to lean toward ANY high rep, compound exercise being great cardio provided it is sustained and rest times are kept short. Any thoughts? 

Edited by Gripperer
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Anyone tried pull-ups using rolling thick grips? Mine are 2.75", so definitely on the thicker side and as described above they rotate as well, so are pretty challenging. Everyone knows the back-building value of pull-ups, but to add rolling thick grips is ridiculous! Perfect for arm wrestling if that's your thing, because the wrist flexion and finger pressure is obscene. Try a few sets of pull-ups on them and the next day your forearms will be more sore than they've been in a long time...

As I've evolved in this grip game I've definitely become more fond of, instead of focusing solely on grip, performing compound exercises that are modified to include a grip stimulus. These pull-ups are probably the best of all, if I had to choose. Second might be the Bulgarian bag spins, provided it's heavy enough. I quite like the suitcase carries as well, and sandbag rows, especially if they're done after each other. All four of those mentioned would be pretty borderline for what I can handle, would have to have some good rest periods in between... Grip would be absolutely cooked.

Edited by Gripperer
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Most advocate weight lifting separately to training grip. "Don't let the grip be your limiter," they say, and "use straps." 

I agree that this is a sensible approach if you're looking for hypertrophy, or even strength, let's say, in the deadlift or row. 

But if you're grappling, I think you absolutely SHOULD let the grip be your limiter! I mean, what's the point in pulling more using something ergonomic, than you can hold onto using a towel grip, or thick grip?

OK, in an ideal world one would use straps and THEN have a separate grip session. But y'know, life gets in the way. The need for efficiency is a thing, and that's why I integrate grip work into compounds. As it turns out, my grip can hold onto an amount decent enough for the rest of the body to feel like its working. 

For example, it can hold onto a 30kg Bulgarian bag for sets of 12-14 spins, and for sets of 8-10 pull-ups using the rolling Extreme Fat Gripz. And I can suitcase carry an amount of weight where the obliques will want to give out at roughly the same time as the grip.

Either my body is weak, or my grip is strong: let's hope it is the latter!! 

Edited by Gripperer
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At some point I will upgrade to a 32kg Bulgarian bag. 2kg doesn't sound like a big addition, but the nature of the spin exercise means that at peak force the weight is multiplied. For this reason I think 34kg would be too much. 

I like the spin in particular because it requires a speedy, momentous and transverse action that your body would undertake similarly if it was chopping wood or throwing dirt with a shovel. Not saying it is totally replicating of this, but it is in the same movement category, which classic weightlifting exercises are not.

I do them alternating as well - spin one way then the other - for an added deceleration demand on the core. It's also harder to restart a spin than to carry on spinning the same way. 

I've also added back in the snatch, because it's just a great power movement for the posterior chain. I try to add only a very slight swing and really focus on that combination of firing the glutes and traps at the same time.

The Bulgarian bag is good for variety but I think the above two, plus lunges with the bag on one shoulder, provide best bang for buck. I mean, I think if you hammered those three exercises alone you could get fit and powerful.

On the sandbag, something I am enjoying now are the bear-hug varieties of the front carry and squat. The positioning of the hold means you are exerting horizontal force to keep the bag up, and it compresses your torso, making you pay extra close attention to your bracing and breathing.

I think they are great for not just strengthening the core but toughening it, which is very beneficial for grappling.

I do feel that due to my current selection of exercises, which in addition to the above consists of suitcase carries, sandbag shoulder carries, one-arm push presses, and  some groundwork that includes even MORE core work, my core is the strongest its ever been. 

I'd never focused on the core in the past, but having deliberately built my routine to work it as a priority, I'm feeling pretty strong overall. 

By core, I mean abdominal, obliques, spinal erectors, and some of those lesser gluteal muses that stabilise the hips, which the lunges and suitcase carries do a great job of activating. 

Are big biceps, triceps and pectorals a sign of power? Possibly is the answer. But for big obliques, glutes, traps and forearms, the answer is definitely! 

Edited by Gripperer
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  • 4 weeks later...

I've been trying some sandbag lifts using a thick canvas fold on top of the bag. Imagine the stimulus of a wrist wrench, but with sore fingertips as well... Interesting exercise. I'm trying to minimise my equipment so these could be an option to make the most of what I've got. 

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On 3/7/2023 at 12:58 PM, Gripperer said:

Most advocate weight lifting separately to training grip. "Don't let the grip be your limiter," they say, and "use straps." 

I agree that this is a sensible approach if you're looking for hypertrophy, or even strength, let's say, in the deadlift or row. 

But if you're grappling, I think you absolutely SHOULD let the grip be your limiter! I mean, what's the point in pulling more using something ergonomic, than you can hold onto using a towel grip, or thick grip?

OK, in an ideal world one would use straps and THEN have a separate grip session. But y'know, life gets in the way. The need for efficiency is a thing, and that's why I integrate grip work into compounds. As it turns out, my grip can hold onto an amount decent enough for the rest of the body to feel like its working. 

For example, it can hold onto a 30kg Bulgarian bag for sets of 12-14 spins, and for sets of 8-10 pull-ups using the rolling Extreme Fat Gripz. And I can suitcase carry an amount of weight where the obliques will want to give out at roughly the same time as the grip.

Either my body is weak, or my grip is strong: let's hope it is the latter!! 

I've never used straps.  And oddly enough...when I did a 515lb pull (with wagon wheels and a trap bar) for my 50th birthday, my posterior chain felt like the weak link instead of my grip.  So for me...I guess my body is weak and my grip is strong?

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2 hours ago, Douglas Carney said:

I've never used straps.  And oddly enough...when I did a 515lb pull (with wagon wheels and a trap bar) for my 50th birthday, my posterior chain felt like the weak link instead of my grip.  So for me...I guess my body is weak and my grip is strong?

Hmm, I suggest that pulling 515 your body is strong and your grip is super strong, especially at 50 👍

Edited by Gripperer
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Found an old photo to double-check my math...10 x 45lb plates, 60lb bar (https://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-tb-2-trap-bar), and 5lb of collars.

     [I used an old school pair of Ivanko cast-iron collars for the occasion.]

Video soundtrack is definitely NSFW.  Angry music helped me deadlift.

     https://youtu.be/nHZaaoABayA

But hey...not bad for 50.

 

11 22 2020 515lb Wagon Wheel Trap Bar Lift.jpg

Old School Ivanko Collars.jpg

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51 minutes ago, Douglas Carney said:

Found an old photo to double-check my math...10 x 45lb plates, 60lb bar (https://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-tb-2-trap-bar), and 5lb of collars.

     [I used an old school pair of Ivanko cast-iron collars for the occasion.]

Video soundtrack is definitely NSFW.  Angry music helped me deadlift.

     https://youtu.be/nHZaaoABayA

But hey...not bad for 50.

 

11 22 2020 515lb Wagon Wheel Trap Bar Lift.jpg

Old School Ivanko Collars.jpg

You enjoyed that lift to the max, that was great. "HOOWAARR!!" 👍

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Fantastic lift , excellent music choice , once again way cool gym

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10 hours ago, John Knowlton said:

Fantastic lift , excellent music choice , once again way cool gym

Thanks so much, John!  I must have really liked that song...  Found another old video when I was experimenting with chains.  😁

https://youtu.be/Ua7A2cdW16U

The gym has been an evolution since we moved here in 2010.  DIY rubber flooring saves a bit on wear and tear when I miss a lift.

 

 

01-14-2021 400lb including chains.jpg

Edited by Douglas Carney
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Hey Doug nice lift

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1 hour ago, John Knowlton said:

Hey Doug nice lift

Thanks John!

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I have suffered a little from "f--k-around-itis." 

I've been consistent in that I have worked out with persistence and dedication for some time now. 

The routine however, has changed almost from month to month, and I have felt lately that I have not progressed in anything specific as a result. 

I have also been inconsistent with diet, floating between deficit and surplus, and ultimately hovering at maintenance. 

So now the goal is to simplify everything. I've been practicing this for about three weeks now. 

I'm following a simple compounds routine with strongman-style sandbags, with a ground-based warm-up and stretch, and a bit extra on grip and triceps.

Equipment is minimal: 2x sandbags (one medium, one heavy), 1x resistance band (light), 3x grippers (CoC 1.5, 2 & 2.5), a pull-up bar, FatGripz (blue and orange), and chalk. 

That's it. It can fit in the corner of a room almost unnoticed. 

General layout is Legs -> Pull -> Push -> Carry/Grip. 

They're really simple workouts that I can complete within 45 minutes, or, if time and recovery allows, I can double up and do Legs + Pull on the same day, or Push + Carry/Grip. 

I work out for consecutive days/weeks until I feel like I need a break. Could be a day or four days, whatever works. This is the flexible factor that I'm a fan of, especially leading a busy life. 

Legs: sandbag squats x50, sandbag good mornings x25

Pull: sandbag rows x50, pull-ups x25

Push: sandbag floor press x50, sandbag overhead press x25, skullcrushers with band x50

Carry/Grip: front carry x3, shoulder carry x4, a short gripper pyramid, 6x various sandbag grip holds, 1x hang with blue FatGripz and 1x hang with orange FatGripz

In terms of progression I have set goals in that I want to:

a) shoulder carry the heavy sandbag

b) close the #2.5 (I never focused on grippers so no wonder it always felt like a brick... Have noticed within a couple of weeks that it's closer than ever, about 1.5cm at most)

That's it. Really simple. Any other progressions are incidental. And if I end up at 20 rep squats by the time I reach these goals, so be it! 

Once I've achieved these goals, I will add further goals such as to shoulder carry the heavy bag for 45 seconds, and close the 2.5 for three reps, or something like that. Then I'll increase the weight of the sandbag, and buy the CoC3... 

Something that @Blacksmith513 will appreciate is the ground-based warm-up before every session. It's 15-20 minutes of stretching, animal walks and a bit of neck work. A blitz of light mobility stuff to get the blood pumping, and to keep the body feeling a little more diverse in terms of its capabilities. 

(I'm lying a little on Push day. I'm actually using dumbbells for the next few weeks, to rehab a damaged shoulder back to strength before I attempt throwing up an awkward object. But at some point the dumbbells will go and it will be sandbags all the way)

Three weeks so far then. I'm feeling pretty much injury free, stronger on the sandbags than ever, and gaining weight... Let's see if I can resist the temptation to try new workouts, and stick with it... 

Edited by Gripperer
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Nice routine!  Yeah i do stuff like that before my workouts, its really important when you get up early.

 

May i recommend Bryce Lanes 50/20? I had great luck with that w/sandbags and kbs... Pick two workouts say shouldering and squats.. Monday you shoulder, Tuesday you squat, wed off and Thursday shoulder Friday squat. Once you get to 50 reps in 20 mins you up the weights.

Or you can do two workouts w/25 reps each...  For a while I could carry 100lbs+ for  practically 20mins straight.  Gotta be careful though, I used to burn myself out every few weeks it can get intense if you using a heavy weight.

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Timed my front carries today. With the 160lbs bag I'm at 40seconds per carry, which I'm quite pleased with. It basically means that for strength purposes I should move up in weight. I think 10lbs would be about right. 

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23 minutes ago, Gripperer said:

Timed my front carries today. With the 160lbs bag I'm at 40seconds per carry, which I'm quite pleased with. It basically means that for strength purposes I should move up in weight. I think 10lbs would be about right. 

Nice. I think for carries i always figured 2 minutes, but really I just kept carrying until it got easy to shoulder. Youll be hitting 200lbs before you knowit.

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11 minutes ago, Blacksmith513 said:

Nice. I think for carries i always figured 2 minutes, but really I just kept carrying until it got easy to shoulder. Youll be hitting 200lbs before you knowit.

Yeah. Definitely for cardiovascular performance I think a longer carry is better. I'm erring more on the strength side. I'm up to 15+ squats and rows as well, so definitely think soon it's time to add, and thinking about it I may as well go straight to 180lbs. I use the smaller 105lbs bag to shoulder carry for time. Not sure how long I'm going, probably approaching two minutes. To be fair I'm using a very small 10ft ish space, and I'm going quickly, so that's lots of stopping and turning which takes its toll quicker than going in a longer straight line I think, and this goes for both types of carry. Maybe I could make 60secs with the 160lbs if I was in a field, not sure (and to clarify I mean with a front carry, aka bear-hug carry. I do that type with the big bag and shoulder carry with the smaller one).

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Tried a new setting technique. Didn't feel comfortable in the right, but did on the left, so with the left I was able to get the #2.5 to about 1cm remaining.

With the right I find that wrestling too much with the set (especially on #3) is costing a bit of energy and the battle to get it parallel for a MMS close is leading to poor position for the final close attempt. 

So I just need to keep playing with it, and potentially accept that a slightly wider set may be better for my hand. 

Problem is, you can't keep tinkering with it because the CNS and muscle fatigue builds quickly and you have to wait until the next session. Argh, if the body could handle it I'd do grippers every day!

Measured my 160lbs sandbag time again, in the bear-hug carry. I was comfortably at 45 seconds per set, and being frank I could've gone for 60+ seconds on the last one.

Adding weight tomorrow. 

Edited by Gripperer
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