Ironmind bending certs

[devinhoo]

3 hours ago, Jermiah Merciconah said:

If he did so through purchase information of that user i'm atleast decently sure thats a massive crime

Yikes. I'm one of the moderators for that subreddit so I was able to delete the post as requested by the original person. I brought it up to the other moderators and found out that at the very least it is against Reddit's rules. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by devinhoo

[slazbob]

12 hours ago, stranger said:

What do you think they should change?

Back when I first heard of bending nails with your hands it was the Captain’s of Crush article Randall wrote for Ironman magazine. And John Brookfield would bend with a rag and down by his waist using all hand and wrist. When I first saw Nathan Holle’s brother bending a red in Milo magazine, he had it tucked under his chin and I couldn’t believe it was the same feat as John had done. Wrapping should be fine, but increasing the length for leverage has to be brought in I think. I think about the classic feat of bending nails in your hands… and think,  that if I told someone I could do that and proceeded  to do what they do now, they would be confused for sure and laugh maybe. These guys are strong for sure, but it’s a hand and wrist feat …and I feel it’s not anymore. 

[devinhoo]

2 hours ago, slazbob said:

Back when I first heard of bending nails with your hands it was the Captain’s of Crush article Randall wrote for Ironman magazine. And John Brookfield would bend with a rag and down by his waist using all hand and wrist. When I first saw Nathan Holle’s brother bending a red in Milo magazine, he had it tucked under his chin and I couldn’t believe it was the same feat as John had done. Wrapping should be fine, but increasing the length for leverage has to be brought in I think. I think about the classic feat of bending nails in your hands… and think,  that if I told someone I could do that and proceeded  to do what they do now, they would be confused for sure and laugh maybe. These guys are strong for sure, but it’s a hand and wrist feat …and I feel it’s not anymore. 

That sounds a lot like this short letter from John Brookfield himself. It seemed like he was more impressed by the Holle DO method than anything else saying "This does not at all diminish his accomplishment—it is just an entirely different technique."

I went back and forth with a few other people when I was designing the rules for my steel bending cert. I really considered adding a section for bends in John Brookfield's style, but honestly I was worried about someone using poor form double overhand and hurting themselves. Just because Brookfield did it that way doesn't mean it's the best way or the only way.

Edited February 24, 2022 by devinhoo

[slazbob]

33 minutes ago, devinhoo said:

That sounds a lot like this short letter from John Brookfield himself. It seemed like he was more impressed by the Holle DO method than anything else saying "This does not at all diminish his accomplishment—it is just an entirely different technique."

I went back and forth with a few other people when I was designing the rules for my steel bending cert. I really considered adding a section for bends in John Brookfield's style, but honestly I was worried about someone using poor form double overhand and hurting themselves. Just because Brookfield did it that way doesn't mean it's the best way or the only way.

Yeah, I totally agree that it’s impressive. And it is another way to do it…but it takes away from a lower arm feat a bit. Just talking classic penny nail stuff that was presented to the general public. But you can see guys bend steel or horseshoes by any means and it’s still a feat of strength. 

[bruce1337]

7 hours ago, slazbob said:

Back when I first heard of bending nails with your hands it was the Captain’s of Crush article Randall wrote for Ironman magazine. And John Brookfield would bend with a rag and down by his waist using all hand and wrist. When I first saw Nathan Holle’s brother bending a red in Milo magazine, he had it tucked under his chin and I couldn’t believe it was the same feat as John had done. Wrapping should be fine, but increasing the length for leverage has to be brought in I think. I think about the classic feat of bending nails in your hands… and think,  that if I told someone I could do that and proceeded  to do what they do now, they would be confused for sure and laugh maybe. These guys are strong for sure, but it’s a hand and wrist feat …and I feel it’s not anymore. 

Problem is that Brookfield never bent a red nail this way either. All his red bends were braced against his hip or thighs. He only ever bent 40d and 60d nails unbraced.

If this is IMs new rules even Brookfields feat would be invalid.

Edited February 24, 2022 by bruce1337

[Fist of Fury]

8 hours ago, slazbob said:

Back when I first heard of bending nails with your hands it was the Captain’s of Crush article Randall wrote for Ironman magazine. And John Brookfield would bend with a rag and down by his waist using all hand and wrist. When I first saw Nathan Holle’s brother bending a red in Milo magazine, he had it tucked under his chin and I couldn’t believe it was the same feat as John had done. Wrapping should be fine, but increasing the length for leverage has to be brought in I think. I think about the classic feat of bending nails in your hands… and think,  that if I told someone I could do that and proceeded  to do what they do now, they would be confused for sure and laugh maybe. These guys are strong for sure, but it’s a hand and wrist feat …and I feel it’s not anymore. 

You still need a lot of wrist strength to bend with good DO technique (good technique meaning, high up under the chin).

You might not need that much of it for a red nail but you just climb up and use harder steel instead. And you certainly need a lot of wrist strength to bend the gold nail that way.

[David_wigren]

4 hours ago, bruce1337 said:

Problem is that Brookfield never bent a red nail this way either. All his red bends were braced against his hip or thighs. He only ever bent 40d and 60d nails unbraced.

If this is IMs new rules even Brookfields feat would be invalid.

I’m not 100% familiar with exactly everything Brookfield has done and not done. But I’ve heard from some who has seen Brookfield bend in person and described it as something that we today would call braced. Keep in mind though that Brookfield was active at a time where there were no set events or rules for how you can or can’t bend. There were no expectations and no criteria to fulfill when Brookfield bent steel, he simply did it in a way that felt natural for him at the time. Though we today would probably call it braced, as I’ve heard the nail and hands were braced quite heavily against the waist and hip, I doubt he was throwing himself into the steel as if it was a horseshoe or something. The way he bent was probably harder than unbraced DO. But from what I’ve heard it’s definitely not in the way Ironmind describes it, by holding the bar at waist level and bending it with no bracing at all. That would be much more difficult than what Brookfield was doing with anything heavier than a 60d.

No one on the list bent the red in the manner Ironmind is describing. A few probably could, but no one did it during the cert. 

[bruce1337]

On 3/6/2012 at 5:01 PM, Alawadhi said:

I believe people who saw John in action said he braced the red with his waist.

 

On 3/10/2012 at 4:14 PM, RichardBean1 said:

Well it's funny that you mention "the old way" of bending a Red nail because it is only recently that a Red Nail requires the thin IM pads we are all used to for certification purposes. The original men who certified on this nail were allowed to use thick stiff sued and leather wraps to fully bend then nails. They too utilized a double overhand style grip hands held high or at chest level and then finished the nail to 2" or less with a chest crush. So actually the Red Nail certification now is a lot harder than it originally was. Much the same as the CoC gripper certs going from a parallel set to a credit card set.

As far as John Brookfield bending a Red nail, he bent it with a more traitional grip hands touching in the middle of the bar but he braced against his wasit and or upper thigh to get the bar moving and then finished up high with a chest crush. I love John Brookfield and have read several of his books and believe me I could not bend a Red nail in the fashion he did but it was far from unbraced. Actualy it is the exact definition of braced. Still required a hell of alot of wrist strength which John had a ton of thats for sure.

 

On 3/21/2012 at 8:58 PM, Jedd Johnson said:

I think there is some kind of myth going around that before the rules were implemented with the blue IM pads, that people were bending the Red Nails differnetly than the DO style. This is simply not true.

Were you under the assumption that Red Nails were not bent DO-style, Old Guy?

I watched John brookfield bend in person in 2005. He was not bending red nails, he was bending either 40D or 60D nails, and he braced every single one of them down near his hip flexor for the kink. Now, as I point out in my Nail Bending eBook, he was also doing crazy stuff in combination with the bends, such as balancing ladders and other items on his chin, so he could have been doing the brace because of this.

In what videos or DVD's have you guys seen John Brookfield bending red nails. That is something I have never seen, but I have seen lots of great benders over the years bending red, and even seen their cert videos and still shots of the certs and I do not remember ever seeing anybody bend one in a technique other than high DO.

Not to take anything away from John. He was a strong guy who made the impossible possible by showing that a red nail was indeed bendable. I would love to actually see someone bend a red nail completely with pure grip and wrist power. But the cert list will become dead except for a select few.

Just have to wait and see when the new rules are published.

[slazbob]

15 hours ago, David_wigren said:

I’m not 100% familiar with exactly everything Brookfield has done and not done. But I’ve heard from some who has seen Brookfield bend in person and described it as something that we today would call braced. Keep in mind though that Brookfield was active at a time where there were no set events or rules for how you can or can’t bend. There were no expectations and no criteria to fulfill when Brookfield bent steel, he simply did it in a way that felt natural for him at the time. Though we today would probably call it braced, as I’ve heard the nail and hands were braced quite heavily against the waist and hip, I doubt he was throwing himself into the steel as if it was a horseshoe or something. The way he bent was probably harder than unbraced DO. But from what I’ve heard it’s definitely not in the way Ironmind describes it, by holding the bar at waist level and bending it with no bracing at all. That would be much more difficult than what Brookfield was doing with anything heavier than a 60d.

No one on the list bent the red in the manner Ironmind is describing. A few probably could, but no one did it during the cert. 

he does put his hand’s braced against his belly. He shows how he does it in his blue print for grip strength video. It’s on YouTube for some reason. 

[David_wigren]

3 hours ago, slazbob said:

he does put his hand’s braced against his belly. He shows how he does it in his blue print for grip strength video. It’s on YouTube for some reason. 

Haha I just watched it. With the length of the nail he bent, that was just a normal DO bend at lower chest level. I guess even Brookfield is a cheater by Ironmind’s standard.

If they really want to drastically change the rules in the manner they’re suggesting then they should just close the old one down and start a new one from scratch.

[David_wigren]

I think Ironmind should add a rule where you have to spend at least a minute explaining about how you’re doing it the hard way and that you’re inly using wrists etc, and then you just proceed to bend it double overhand anyway.

I think that would be most consistent with the fact that they seen to refer to the modern old time strongmen who used to bend steel in the 90’s. Talking about doing it the real way and how the wraps aren’t adding any leverage and etc was a big part of the feat. That’s at least my conclusion from watching them all do their feats.

[Jermiah Merciconah]

This is just history repeating itself with what happens when too many people start certing, The way they hack jobbed a solution in the past was adding the credit card set rule

[Lennix]

2 minutes ago, Jermiah Merciconah said:

This is just history repeating itself with what happens when too many people start certing, The way they hack jobbed a solution in the past was adding the credit card set rule

In this case there is not to many people certing. Only 7 people last year and 4 the year before. This time it's because other reasons. Listen to the next episode of beyond the bend that will be live in the beginning of next week and you will understand why

[Fist of Fury]

If someone wants to test their wrist strength with steel bending. David Horne already has much better certs than IM ever will have. He has rated steel to start with. You can also cert double over hand there as long as it's single pads touching in the middle. There are lists for grade 8 bolts and red nails in that style. I'm sure harder steel would be added if someone could bend it like that.

[David_wigren]

1 hour ago, Fist of Fury said:

If someone wants to test their wrist strength with steel bending. David Horne already has much better certs than IM ever will have. He has rated steel to start with. You can also cert double over hand there as long as it's single pads touching in the middle. There are lists for grade 8 bolts and red nails in that style. I'm sure harder steel would be added if someone could bend it like that.

There’s at least a few who can, but haven’t bothered.

[bruce1337]

Does anyone know what the average red nail rated in the early 2000's and how it has changed over the years? 

[David_wigren]

37 minutes ago, bruce1337 said:

Does anyone know what the average red nail rated in the early 2000's and how it has changed over the years? 

IMO the batch variance is quite big but the average has stayed fairly consistent since 2007. I’ve seen numbers vary from 380-500 lbs on the Milfeld scale but the average is pretty consistent around 430-440 lbs Don’t know how it was before 2007.

[bruce1337]

9 minutes ago, David_wigren said:

IMO the batch variance is quite big but the average has stayed fairly consistent since 2007. I’ve seen numbers vary from 380-500 lbs on the Milfeld scale but the average is pretty consistent around 430-440 lbs Don’t know how it was before 2007.

I would argue that if red nails were alot easier during its inception and rated something closer to 380 it would be very much doable Brookfield style (without the bracing). Benders today who specifically train strict bending (Bat, Alex, Reuben, even yourself to name a few) could do it with enough dedication.

Problem always comes back to Randall and his inability (or just plain stubbornness) to admit that the steel varies. Brookfield could have bent the easiest red nail on the planet, and in Randalls eyes anyone who cant bend it like him is just "not as strong as the guys in the old days".

[stranger]

42 minutes ago, bruce1337 said:

I would argue that if red nails were alot easier during its inception and rated something closer to 380 it would be very much doable Brookfield style (without the bracing). Benders today who specifically train strict bending (Bat, Alex, Reuben, even yourself to name a few) could do it with enough dedication.

Problem always comes back to Randall and his inability (or just plain stubbornness) to admit that the steel varies. Brookfield could have bent the easiest red nail on the planet, and in Randalls eyes anyone who cant bend it like him is just "not as strong as the guys in the old days".

I have reds from 2020 that I was bending consistently in 2021. I decided to order another batch just to make sure I was ready to cert. When I got the new 2021 Reds I could only wobble them in IMP's. They were a good 50lbs harder if I had to guess. So I worked my way up to bending those in IMP's without rubber bands and now they're changing the cert. Awesome. 

[David_wigren]

8 minutes ago, stranger said:

I have reds from 2020 that I was bending consistently in 2021. I decided to order another batch just to make sure I was ready to cert. When I got the new 2021 Reds I could only wobble them in IMP's. They were a good 50lbs harder if I had to guess. So I worked my way up to bending those in IMP's without rubber bands and now they're changing the cert. Awesome. 

For me it was the other way around. I was working with hard reds. And when it was time to cert I got handed reds that were way easier. I bent those in about 5 seconds. I even removed the wraps on the last one when it was at about 4” and crushed it down barehanded. 
 

 

[David_wigren]

Btw, I’m sure Ironmind is currently discussing this with a group of “experts” on the topic before they proceed to change anything. I just hope those experts actually have more than two weeks of experience, or isn’t just a bunch of strongman performers who want to impose their weak sh(i)t in the rest of us. It’s one thing to bend a 40d with some funky technique, it’s a whole different thing to bend a gold. You’re simply not going to bend a gold by grabbing it by the middle with a dish cloth and bending it by supinating your hands.

[stranger]

6 minutes ago, David_wigren said:

Btw, I’m sure Ironmind is currently discussing this with a group of “experts” on the topic before they proceed to change anything. I just hope those experts actually have more than two weeks of experience, or isn’t just a bunch of strongman performers who want to impose their weak sh(i)t in the rest of us. It’s one thing to bend a 40d with some funky technique, it’s a whole different thing to bend a gold. You’re simply not going to bend a gold by grabbing it by the middle with a dish cloth and bending it by supinating your hands.

I've emailed them and got responses from them within a day or two. Not sure how much or even if it'll help but I figured it's worth a shot. The email address is in the article that was posted in this thread.

[bruce1337]

15 minutes ago, stranger said:

I've emailed them and got responses from them within a day or two. Not sure how much or even if it'll help but I figured it's worth a shot. The email address is in the article that was posted in this thread.

I got a vague reply from Randall implying that bending with seasoned wraps DO is akin to geared powerlifting.

[Cannon]

So maybe they will just send new pads with the cert bars? And possibly shorten the time allowed with any wrapping included in the time (thereby making meticulous wrapping impossible and still have time to bend). 

[Lennix]

1 minute ago, Cannon said:

So maybe they will just send new pads with the cert bars? 

Yes maybe. And open the ironmind pads on camera and no chalking them in.

But that will make the gold nail impossible which by the looks of it, is what they want.