My thoughts on the arm wrestling scene these days

[Tommy J.]

Lots of personal opinion I’m about to talk. So skip it if this sort of content cuts you deep, or if my opinions tend to occupy acreage of real estate in that head.

basically, I’m bored af with all the super matches these days. Don’t know how you guys feel about them, or if you’ve even thought about it at all. But I do.

In the super match format, yes, it’s excellent for gambling purposes. And yes, promoters do get more bang for their buck when they charge us all to see a few matches live. Vs a tournament layout where we actually get to see many matches for a similar, or at no cost to you price. So on a business front, the super matches are the way to go for promoters. And until some tournaments start handing out bigger purses, super matches are handing out more money for the guys (usually only the elite pullers are actually getting decent money on super matches) who pull them as well.

but the biggest note I’m taking with regards to super matches is that format pretty much caters to only 2 types of pullers. The guy with more endurance. Or the guy with the most irritating under the table kings move. Period️

case in point, IMO, super matches for top supers in North America are the Devon and MMT show exclusively. Both of those guys rarely just muscle through anyone. Have they both done that in the past? Yep. They sure have. Only when their opponents had no business on the table with them to begin with….but let’s not lie to ourselves. Devon and MMT both have had many victories simply by bleeding their opponents dry, with tactics that many of us aren’t truly fans of. Kings moves, setup controversy before the ready-go, and strategic fouling so to gas the opponent and force a restart. All done simply to bleed the opponent, rather than face them head up, fair, and strength for strength. But hey… you like them for their personalities, not for their tactics. so it’s okay, right?

do many other lower level guys do super matches? Of course they do. But why?.. the majority of super matches I see on the journeyman level don’t pay Jack shit unless the pullers or the pullers’ homies front their own cash as a stake. Leaving only the top 5-10 or so supers, light heavyweight, and middle weights mostly to get paid.

further, IMO, marathon matches where all the shenanigans take place don’t tell us who the strongest is. It simply tells us who has more endurance, and or who plays a better “game” at the table. …and god forbid it actually be about who the strongest is. But it’s okay. we want a “show”, right?

it’s garbage. Argue with me all you want, but arm wrestling was always intended to be a STRENGTH sport. Not an endurance sport.

and I’ll forewarn you… if anyone here specifically (as in the grip community) wants to get live about it, then I’ll do my usual assigning you right back to your own logic. and force you to adhere to your own logic across the board. or don’t spit it. I will even go so far as to suggest you advocate your logic into grip sport as well. basically what I’m saying is if you want to get in here and defend “endurance” as being paramount in arm wrestling over strength, then I will suggest you get vocal about grip comp events with that exact same logic. …since it’s okay to turn a strength sport into an endurance sport, do the same in grip.
And ditch the idea of who lifts the most on a said implement. And instead advocate for a lighter weight on that implement and make it only a timed hold event with the same exact weight for everyone……. ….. no?… why?…. Because that would be boring as shit, right? And it wouldn’t tell us who the strongest is, would it?…. Yeah. thats what I thought.

or wait, let’s turn powerlifting into an endurance sport while we are at it. Yay!…. And we can just STOP with the “Who lifts more?” question all together. And go straight to who can do the longest pause with 135lbs mid way, then finish the rep. On squat bench AND deadlift. Oh goodie! It’ll be swell!……… not!

just like me, you DO want to know who the STRONGEST puller is. Not the guy who has the greatest “endurance”.

super matches and kings move are doing to arm wrestling the exact same thing that BJJ and grappling did to MMA. Made it boring as F*************** to watch.

 

in a double elimination tournament, where there is also a 2 foul and you lose the match rule, where the rules are actually enforced, and where all the top guys show up, Devon and MMT finish almost dead last.

I say that because Devon rarely wins the first match in a 6 round super match. and with strict rule enforcement, MMT will foul out his first two matches completely in that setting.

I’ll even be so bold as to say that if someone with some deep pockets setup a tournament like I describe above, and offered $100k to first place, $75k to 2nd place, and $50k to 3rd place, Devon and MMT are going home with empty pockets. Because that kind of money is going to draw in ALL the freaks.

here’s a short list of some names right off the top of my head that could get some money in that style tournament:

Levan, Chaffe, Kurdecha, Trubin, Brzenk, Bagent, Cadorette, Vitaly, etc.

Each and every one of those guys finishes ahead of guys like MMT or Devon in a double elimination tournament where strict rule enforcement is in place. …lol… well, maybe not Bagent if rules are enforced. But you get what I’m saying.

 

and this isn’t me hating on either of them. I actually am a fan of both of them. They are entertaining to watch. And seem like unique individuals. But!… I believe both of them more than likely view themselves as 2 of the “strongest” pullers on the planet.

 

but are they really?..

 

the super match shenanigans are what raised the question for me. All I’m saying is in a double elimination tournament like I describe above, Devon and MMT all of a sudden won’t be receiving much screen time or clout. And I really do want to know who pins who fresh for fresh, head up, no bullshit, and no endurance crap outside of 1, or possibly 2 matches with a said guy.

So to pick on Devon a bit more, Oleg was walking all over Devon in a double elimination tournament some years back. And Devon was subsequently saved by Bill on that one after taking back a fair and square pin that Oleg dished out on Devon. Let’s also not forget no name Brandon Boudine steam rolling Devon in Vegas some years back in a WAL tournament.

take matches like those into consideration before replying. Devon has pulled few tournaments compared to his super match count. And when he does, little guys like Oleg, and no name guys like Brandon tend to push Devon around. How do you think he’d fare against the names I listed above in a similar setting?

 

I do look forward to someone changing my mind. But if your logic attempts to defend endurance over horse power in a strength sport, get ready for some debate.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Tommy J.

[Tommy J.]

 

 

I went long above elaborating on why super matches are a bit of a boring monopoly on the sport. And pointed out how a double elimination style tournament would more accurately point out who the strongest pullers are. That is all.

I’ve heard many say that as the truest and most pure test of who is strongest, you have all competitors in question show up same day, same equipment, and let the strongest point themselves out. And I agree.

no spending months practicing to bleed one guy. Just show up and let’s see how elite and well rounded you really are amongst 15-20 other super elites on the same day. Hell, you may get to test that “endurance” after all! You just won’t get a chance to bleed any one guy without also screwing yourself for your next opponent.

I see no downside to all pulling being tournament style. Other than it would completely shit all over staking and make for some long live feeds.

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Tommy J.

[Florian Kellersmann]

You are not alone with your thoughts. I miss the days of tournaments where the best pullers attend. Even Zloty Tur is not the same tournament anymore (at least in 95kg and open), because they took the best (top) 8 out of the tournament. 

Another thing in armwrestling that should be considered as maybe the wrong direction of the sport is the permanent strap. The strap takes away a lot of what original armwrestling is about and allows kingsmoves/open arm toproll. 

 

[Florian Kellersmann]

 

[Tommy J.]

Just now, Florian Kellersmann said:

You are not alone with your thoughts. I miss the days of tournaments where the best pullers attend. Even Zloty Tur is not the same tournament anymore (at least in 95kg and open), because they took the best (top) 8 out of the tournament. 

Another thing in armwrestling that should be considered as maybe the wrong direction of the sport is the permanent strap. The strap takes away a lot of what original armwrestling is about and allows kingsmoves/open arm toproll. 

 

Agreed. The strap in arm wrestling should be looked at no different than how straps are viewed by us on a deadlift.

[Florian Kellersmann]

It gets even worse if a supermatch has more than 5 rounds...

 

[Climber028]

Before even opening the thread I read the title and was convinced I knew exactly what you're gonna say, nice to see were on the same page. It's just getting so saturated, then we have silly things like Larry being in super matches with essentially zero tournament experience, it just doesn't make any sense. 

I don't think there should be zero super matches, but definitely far less than today and only for the very elite not just any random puller. 

[Fist of Fury]

2 hours ago, Florian Kellersmann said:

You are not alone with your thoughts. I miss the days of tournaments where the best pullers attend. Even Zloty Tur is not the same tournament anymore (at least in 95kg and open), because they took the best (top) 8 out of the tournament. 

Another thing in armwrestling that should be considered as maybe the wrong direction of the sport is the permanent strap. The strap takes away a lot of what original armwrestling is about and allows kingsmoves/open arm toproll. 

 

True. The over-use of strap is probably the main reason I can't really take the sport seriously. I think it's really bad if that is going to be the standard, it does seem to head in that direction. Also bad referee's is another joke in AW. Like when Todd beat Larratt, that was a joke. It's really bad, not as bad as Formula One though, not yet at least

[David_wigren]

I agree with basically everything you said Tommy. That last supermatch between Devon and Brzenk left a particularly sour taste in my mouth. I think the first round took over 5 minutes to start. Had it been in WAF or PAL he would’ve been fouled out in the first round because of not following the commands if the ref. But that’s Devon’s strategy, he wanted to fatigue Brzenk as much as possible before the first go, just as he did in 2008. When the go was finally given Brzenk was already burnt. The fact that he still managed to take the first pin is incredibly impressive. Personally, I think if this match had been in PAL rules, Brzenk would’ve taken the first two rounds. But after that Devon’s endurance would’ve been too much for Brzenk.

 

[Alawadhi]

4 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

Lots of personal opinion I’m about to talk. So skip it if this sort of content cuts you deep, or if my opinions tend to occupy acreage of real estate in that head.

basically, I’m bored af with all the super matches these days. Don’t know how you guys feel about them, or if you’ve even thought about it at all. But I do.

In the super match format, yes, it’s excellent for gambling purposes. And yes, promoters do get more bang for their buck when they charge us all to see a few matches live. Vs a tournament layout where we actually get to see many matches for a similar, or at no cost to you price. So on a business front, the super matches are the way to go for promoters. And until some tournaments start handing out bigger purses, super matches are handing out more money for the guys (usually only the elite pullers are actually getting decent money on super matches) who pull them as well.

but the biggest note I’m taking with regards to super matches is that format pretty much caters to only 2 types of pullers. The guy with more endurance. Or the guy with the most irritating under the table kings move. Period️

case in point, IMO, super matches for top supers in North America are the Devon and MMT show exclusively. Both of those guys rarely just muscle through anyone. Have they both done that in the past? Yep. They sure have. Only when their opponents had no business on the table with them to begin with….but let’s not lie to ourselves. Devon and MMT both have had many victories simply by bleeding their opponents dry, with tactics that many of us aren’t truly fans of. Kings moves, setup controversy before the ready-go, and strategic fouling so to gas the opponent and force a restart. All done simply to bleed the opponent, rather than face them head up, fair, and strength for strength. But hey… you like them for their personalities, not for their tactics. so it’s okay, right?

do many other lower level guys do super matches? Of course they do. But why?.. the majority of super matches I see on the journeyman level don’t pay Jack shit unless the pullers or the pullers’ homies front their own cash as a stake. Leaving only the top 5-10 or so supers, light heavyweight, and middle weights mostly to get paid.

further, IMO, marathon matches where all the shenanigans take place don’t tell us who the strongest is. It simply tells us who has more endurance, and or who plays a better “game” at the table. …and god forbid it actually be about who the strongest is. But it’s okay. we want a “show”, right?

it’s garbage. Argue with me all you want, but arm wrestling was always intended to be a STRENGTH sport. Not an endurance sport.

and I’ll forewarn you… if anyone here specifically (as in the grip community) wants to get live about it, then I’ll do my usual assigning you right back to your own logic. and force you to adhere to your own logic across the board. or don’t spit it. I will even go so far as to suggest you advocate your logic into grip sport as well. basically what I’m saying is if you want to get in here and defend “endurance” as being paramount in arm wrestling over strength, then I will suggest you get vocal about grip comp events with that exact same logic. …since it’s okay to turn a strength sport into an endurance sport, do the same in grip.
And ditch the idea of who lifts the most on a said implement. And instead advocate for a lighter weight on that implement and make it only a timed hold event with the same exact weight for everyone……. ….. no?… why?…. Because that would be boring as shit, right? And it wouldn’t tell us who the strongest is, would it?…. Yeah. thats what I thought.

or wait, let’s turn powerlifting into an endurance sport while we are at it. Yay!…. And we can just STOP with the “Who lifts more?” question all together. And go straight to who can do the longest pause with 135lbs mid way, then finish the rep. On squat bench AND deadlift. Oh goodie! It’ll be swell!……… not!

just like me, you DO want to know who the STRONGEST puller is. Not the guy who has the greatest “endurance”.

super matches and kings move are doing to arm wrestling the exact same thing that BJJ and grappling did to MMA. Made it boring as F*************** to watch.

 

in a double elimination tournament, where there is also a 2 foul and you lose the match rule, where the rules are actually enforced, and where all the top guys show up, Devon and MMT finish almost dead last.

I say that because Devon rarely wins the first match in a 6 round super match. and with strict rule enforcement, MMT will foul out his first two matches completely in that setting.

I’ll even be so bold as to say that if someone with some deep pockets setup a tournament like I describe above, and offered $100k to first place, $75k to 2nd place, and $50k to 3rd place, Devon and MMT are going home with empty pockets. Because that kind of money is going to draw in ALL the freaks.

here’s a short list of some names right off the top of my head that could get some money in that style tournament:

Levan, Chaffe, Kurdecha, Trubin, Brzenk, Bagent, Cadorette, Vitaly, etc.

Each and every one of those guys finishes ahead of guys like MMT or Devon in a double elimination tournament where strict rule enforcement is in place. …lol… well, maybe not Bagent if rules are enforced. But you get what I’m saying.

 

and this isn’t me hating on either of them. I actually am a fan of both of them. They are entertaining to watch. And seem like unique individuals. But!… I believe both of them more than likely view themselves as 2 of the “strongest” pullers on the planet.

 

but are they really?..

 

the super match shenanigans are what raised the question for me. All I’m saying is in a double elimination tournament like I describe above, Devon and MMT all of a sudden won’t be receiving much screen time or clout. And I really do want to know who pins who fresh for fresh, head up, no bullshit, and no endurance crap outside of 1, or possibly 2 matches with a said guy.

So to pick on Devon a bit more, Oleg was walking all over Devon in a double elimination tournament some years back. And Devon was subsequently saved by Bill on that one after taking back a fair and square pin that Oleg dished out on Devon. Let’s also not forget no name Brandon Boudine steam rolling Devon in Vegas some years back in a WAL tournament.

take matches like those into consideration before replying. Devon has pulled few tournaments compared to his super match count. And when he does, little guys like Oleg, and no name guys like Brandon tend to push Devon around. How do you think he’d fare against the names I listed above in a similar setting?

 

I do look forward to someone changing my mind. But if your logic attempts to defend endurance over horse power in a strength sport, get ready for some debate.

I am gonna address few points.

I loves seeing the super matches. After the scamdemic these tournaments were way less and these are here to entertain us. As for the cost, yes it does cost a lot to fly athletes, book a room, feed them and have prize money. Some other organization (famous one's) don't even do that. They just pick the famous athletes from the airport and if they lose, they pay for their bus ticket back to airport. It is such a shame. And no I won't mention names. So yeah to make the athletes happy the organizer need to cover all cost and make money in order to keep this going. But guess what, the bigger it gets the more they will be paid. I am talking about KOTT here. I believe they are the second highest athlete paid super matches tournament. I believe the highest was a local tournament here where the prize money was AED 5 Million (USD 1.37 Million).

As for the endurance, I am with and against. I certainly don't want to watch under the table kings move in a real match. That is boring. But if they are on same level then yeah why not may the man with more endurance wins like combat sports. Devon says AW is kinda a combat sport (not that I agree with but yeah you need to fight for position). As for not following the rules to tire your opponent, I also don't like to watch it. Hold fairly and go is the best way to go. PAL have these more strict. 

As for both of them view themselves as the strongest pullers, no I assure you they don't. Devon I am 100% certain of. But he is not scared to train for a fight against Levan or Vitaly.

So yeah, I want to see a more strict rule, no under the table and pull like Levan and Brzenk. Strength over endurance. 

On a side note and a different subject. I remember some people used to say John Brzenk have gigantic hands over 8.5" and 17 inch forearms, which is a lie. I remember Joe Musselwhite measured them but still somewhere on Reddit they said no that is wrong. I can confirm Johns forearms are somewhere around 15. something inches and his hands are around my hands yet thicker with longer thumbs.

3 hours ago, Florian Kellersmann said:

You are not alone with your thoughts. I miss the days of tournaments where the best pullers attend. Even Zloty Tur is not the same tournament anymore (at least in 95kg and open), because they took the best (top) 8 out of the tournament. 

Another thing in armwrestling that should be considered as maybe the wrong direction of the sport is the permanent strap. The strap takes away a lot of what original armwrestling is about and allows kingsmoves/open arm toproll. 

 

Yes, yes and yes!

[Tommy J.]

7 hours ago, David_wigren said:

I agree with basically everything you said Tommy. That last supermatch between Devon and Brzenk left a particularly sour taste in my mouth. I think the first round took over 5 minutes to start. Had it been in WAF or PAL he would’ve been fouled out in the first round because of not following the commands if the ref. But that’s Devon’s strategy, he wanted to fatigue Brzenk as much as possible before the first go, just as he did in 2008. When the go was finally given Brzenk was already burnt. The fact that he still managed to take the first pin is incredibly impressive. Personally, I think if this match had been in PAL rules, Brzenk would’ve taken the first two rounds. But after that Devon’s endurance would’ve been too much for Brzenk.

 

Not sure if any of you guys on the board here are into auto racing.. but this sort of thing happens at the light before it turns green on a drag strip. Due to the stripped down nature of most racecars, a lot of parts are thrown to the wayside for weight reduction purposes. Often times those parts are things like bulky trans coolers, or radiator fans completely, for example. What this means is when a car pulls up to the line running, the clock is ticking on trans and engine temperatures. And for anyone that knows anything about cars, excessive heat is an engine and transmissions worst enemy above all else.

what you’ll see from a cheater that pulls up to the line when he knows his car isn't fast enough to beat the other guys car, the sleazy bastard will play games before pulling up to the light. so to make the other guys car get hot. It’s referred to as “burning him down” on a drag strip. As it only takes a few seconds for a high performance setup to go up 50-100 degrees. And if a cheater wants a slight edge, forcing their opponents car up a few degrees (25-100 or more degrees higher than it was when you pulled up to the line) it can and does literally mean the difference between winning and losing the race. Where, often times, BIG money, or even the car itself is on the line as purse.

you’ll see this done in clever ways as well. First and foremost is guy A will burn out and clean his tires off, then pull up to the light ready to race. Then guy B will take extra time doing his burnout, or having his buddy’s “check the tires” real quick, or shut the car down for a few moments claiming he thinks he has a problem, or flat out backing up off the line over and over claiming to not be center of the lane. All of these things happening while the other guy is idling at the line and the temperature on his rig is rising by the second.

and burning another guy down on a track, does, and has gotten people banned from, prize money forfeited, and or shot dead at racetracks. It’s a game that a lot of folks are not gonna play when you have a $100k race car on the line as a bet, or tens of thousands of dollars tied up as purse in 1 race.

obviously there is like 100 other ways to cheat a race. But burning your opponent down is considered one of the most frowned upon cheats in drag racing. At least it is here anyways. It’s like a final last ditch act of desperation. You might as well just get out of your car and take a sledge hammer to your opponents engine and trans just before the race when you do that.

And for dramatic effect, I’m gonna put it right on par with playing games in the setup before the ready-go in arm wrestling.

[Tommy J.]

6 hours ago, Alawadhi said:

I am gonna address few points.

I loves seeing the super matches. After the scamdemic these tournaments were way less and these are here to entertain us. As for the cost, yes it does cost a lot to fly athletes, book a room, feed them and have prize money. Some other organization (famous one's) don't even do that. They just pick the famous athletes from the airport and if they lose, they pay for their bus ticket back to airport. It is such a shame. And no I won't mention names. So yeah to make the athletes happy the organizer need to cover all cost and make money in order to keep this going. But guess what, the bigger it gets the more they will be paid. I am talking about KOTT here. I believe they are the second highest athlete paid super matches tournament. I believe the highest was a local tournament here where the prize money was AED 5 Million (USD 1.37 Million).

As for the endurance, I am with and against. I certainly don't want to watch under the table kings move in a real match. That is boring. But if they are on same level then yeah why not may the man with more endurance wins like combat sports. Devon says AW is kinda a combat sport (not that I agree with but yeah you need to fight for position). As for not following the rules to tire your opponent, I also don't like to watch it. Hold fairly and go is the best way to go. PAL have these more strict. 

As for both of them view themselves as the strongest pullers, no I assure you they don't. Devon I am 100% certain of. But he is not scared to train for a fight against Levan or Vitaly.

So yeah, I want to see a more strict rule, no under the table and pull like Levan and Brzenk. Strength over endurance. 

On a side note and a different subject. I remember some people used to say John Brzenk have gigantic hands over 8.5" and 17 inch forearms, which is a lie. I remember Joe Musselwhite measured them but still somewhere on Reddit they said no that is wrong. I can confirm Johns forearms are somewhere around 15. something inches and his hands are around my hands yet thicker with longer thumbs.

Yes, yes and yes!

I dig that you guys in Dubai treat the athletes with high respect, and top notch accommodations. For lack of a better word/phrase, I think I can speak for all of us not directly involved in the matches when I say that Dubai is highly respected and recognized world wide for that. One of these days when I get my shit together, I look forward to attending and competing in a Dubai arm wrestling and or grip event myself.

That said, the tactics of some of the pullers that many of us disagree with is not Dubai’s fault. In any way shape or form.

I also dig Larry’s involvement in the sport this last year. And hope to see him winning more of his matches in the future. I genuinely believe he possesses way more strength on the table than what he’s shown in his matches. In fact, I’ve said right here on this board that I already consider him to have bonafide, fairly high level arm wrestling strength. I spotted a thing or two before Larry even pulled Chance that made me realize that. And I stand behind that opinion still. At this point, he only needs a bit more time learning the lanes of the table and some moderate to high level supers are going to be in trouble! Lol

that said, without Dubai, and without Larry, I don’t believe any of the highly anticipated matches we’ve seen over the last year would have even happened. And the super matches are better than nothing!

I believe if anyone can draw all the top guys into 1 place for a single high purse tournament, it’s Dubai and Dubai only that could accomplish that. That said, I also see how a large tournament of a bus load of top pullers could be near impossible to put together with Covid restrictions at this time. Which, undoubtedly, is also not Dubai’s fault.

I hope not to offend with my sentiments thus far. I did and do feel obligated to at least say out loud what I believe the majority wants to see happen in arm wrestling at this point. So many of us are eager to find out who the strongest most well rounded actual puller is.

just a no bs, strict reffing, double elimination tournament of all the top guys. With only 1 winner. Who could then, if he chose, accept super match challenges after that tournament win.

[Alawadhi]

36 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

I dig that you guys in Dubai treat the athletes with high respect, and top notch accommodations. For lack of a better word/phrase, I think I can speak for all of us not directly involved in the matches when I say that Dubai is highly respected and recognized world wide for that. One of these days when I get my shit together, I look forward to attending and competing in a Dubai arm wrestling and or grip event myself.

That said, the tactics of some of the pullers that many of us disagree with is not Dubai’s fault. In any way shape or form.

I also dig Larry’s involvement in the sport this last year. And hope to see him winning more of his matches in the future. I genuinely believe he possesses way more strength on the table than what he’s shown in his matches. In fact, I’ve said right here on this board that I already consider him to have bonafide, fairly high level arm wrestling strength. I spotted a thing or two before Larry even pulled Chance that made me realize that. And I stand behind that opinion still. At this point, he only needs a bit more time learning the lanes of the table and some moderate to high level supers are going to be in trouble! Lol

that said, without Dubai, and without Larry, I don’t believe any of the highly anticipated matches we’ve seen over the last year would have even happened. And the super matches are better than nothing!

I believe if anyone can draw all the top guys into 1 place for a single high purse tournament, it’s Dubai and Dubai only that could accomplish that. That said, I also see how a large tournament of a bus load of top pullers could be near impossible to put together with Covid restrictions at this time. Which, undoubtedly, is also not Dubai’s fault.

I hope not to offend with my sentiments thus far. I did and do feel obligated to at least say out loud what I believe the majority wants to see happen in arm wrestling at this point. So many of us are eager to find out who the strongest most well rounded actual puller is.

just a no bs, strict reffing, double elimination tournament of all the top guys. With only 1 winner. Who could then, if he chose, accept super match challenges after that tournament win.

No offense at all brother. You said out loud what you think of and I cannot agree more. And of course I said it before and will say it again; Dubai's door is always open to you! And we will all be glad.

As for the last paragraph, I want that too. It would be so cool to set it up. But may I ask why the double, not the single elimination tournament? 

[Tommy J.]

27 minutes ago, Alawadhi said:

No offense at all brother. You said out loud what you think of and I cannot agree more. And of course I said it before and will say it again; Dubai's door is always open to you! And we will all be glad.

As for the last paragraph, I want that too. It would be so cool to set it up. But may I ask why the double, not the single elimination tournament? 

Thank you for the kind words brother!

double elimination to buffer possible losses to unintentional fouling, and for an opportunity to maybe skip an opponent to save horse power for the final. Also allows for more matches, with a possible mini super match at the end if the last 2 guys step to the table with no losses

[Alawadhi]

1 hour ago, Tommy J. said:

Thank you for the kind words brother!

double elimination to buffer possible losses to unintentional fouling, and for an opportunity to maybe skip an opponent to save horse power for the final. Also allows for more matches, with a possible mini super match at the end if the last 2 guys step to the table with no losses

Got it

[Dylan]

haha. The reason people don't want to see endurance stuff is because they don't like doing it themself. If you have poor endurance then that's on you man. Arm wrestling is wrestling after all.  Some people like seeing someone get 'bled' and be slowly crushed rather than have their arm simply snapped.

If you want something more visually appealing then check out the Japanese version where you get the whole table and can literally pull the person to your side of the table. More "wrestling" involved and more interesting. Endurance will always have a part though and bleeding people is in the game. If you don't want to bleed in the match then bleed in training.

This forum seems to be full of people that reach a good level of lift by avoiding endurance training but that's at least a bit small minded. Have a "grappler" mindset to train with and you get farther.

It's not like life is conquered by 1 shots hahaha! It's about work capacity being in accord with strength. Get proportional.

Avoiding endurance work and volume and work capacity; avoiding work is just avoiding pain. Easy to ignore or handle pain when you go for singles, sets of 3 and 5 and 8. Most of those people make some complaints about injury and pain and deloading to deal with it as well, they find many ways to avoid pain and work. You're not training right if you don't experience pain and go for large amounts of total volume and each day.

If you want a focus point it should be on muscle not the nervous system. Muscles wind up growing from pretty much anything as long as you do enough work. Even wrists grow more if you focus on total work and reaching failure.

I'm not expert so I won't say you should do heavy singles or 3s or 5s for 20 sets each day. You should be going to failure the first set and do high volume work at 40 - 60% though. Going to failure each set with 40 - 60% with slow slow reps, 10 seconds both ways is just not something people are willing to do due to the very appropriate training pain.

I find heavy singles and triples easy and have done them in various movements since I was a kid. It's less painful even though the pain and strain is there, it doesn't compare to enduring hard work. When I train for endurance with to-failure sets at decent % I can appreciate the grind.

It's not like they're going for hours anyway, it's minutes.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Dylan
adding something I forgot

[Tommy J.]

On 12/18/2021 at 4:40 AM, Dylan said:

haha. The reason people don't want to see endurance stuff is because they don't like doing it themself. If you have poor endurance then that's on you man. Arm wrestling is wrestling after all.  Some people like seeing someone get 'bled' and be slowly crushed rather than have their arm simply snapped.

If you want something more visually appealing then check out the Japanese version where you get the whole table and can literally pull the person to your side of the table. More "wrestling" involved and more interesting. Endurance will always have a part though and bleeding people is in the game. If you don't want to bleed in the match then bleed in training.

This forum seems to be full of people that reach a good level of lift by avoiding endurance training but that's at least a bit small minded. Have a "grappler" mindset to train with and you get farther.

It's not like life is conquered by 1 shots hahaha! It's about work capacity being in accord with strength. Get proportional.

Avoiding endurance work and volume and work capacity; avoiding work is just avoiding pain. Easy to ignore or handle pain when you go for singles, sets of 3 and 5 and 8. Most of those people make some complaints about injury and pain and deloading to deal with it as well, they find many ways to avoid pain and work. You're not training right if you don't experience pain and go for large amounts of total volume and each day.

If you want a focus point it should be on muscle not the nervous system. Muscles wind up growing from pretty much anything as long as you do enough work. Even wrists grow more if you focus on total work and reaching failure.

I'm not expert so I won't say you should do heavy singles or 3s or 5s for 20 sets each day. You should be going to failure the first set and do high volume work at 40 - 60% though. Going to failure each set with 40 - 60% with slow slow reps, 10 seconds both ways is just not something people are willing to do due to the very appropriate training pain.

I find heavy singles and triples easy and have done them in various movements since I was a kid. It's less painful even though the pain and strain is there, it doesn't compare to enduring hard work. When I train for endurance with to-failure sets at decent % I can appreciate the grind.

It's not like they're going for hours anyway, it's minutes.

Okay I see what your saying. Your angle in a nutshell is- “guys who don’t like endurance events just don’t have endurance.”

since you chose that logic, I’ll match it with this equal and opposite rebuttal- endurance guys don’t like strength events because they don’t have strength.

If one has merit, then so does the other.

but no. Nobody I know wants to classify arm wrestling as an endurance event. And no one to my knowledge classifies full contact wrestling as an endurance event either. Fast power movements with heavy and violent maneuvers that are followed up by sudden stops do not, and will not ever classify as an endurance event. Personally, I’d love to see a less strong guy trying to convince his stronger opponent that they are going to instead play the endurance game in a bonafide wrestling match. While the only thing on the stronger opponents mind is slam dunking the weaker opponent onto the top of his own head as fast and as violently as he can. In that case, which opponent is more formidable? Which one would you rather face? The one who aims to run you out of wind? Or the one that aims to break your neck? And oddly enough, I know which opponent the onlookers of that match want to see do his thing as well. Weather they admit it or not.

And please do not assume I’m scoffing at endurance. Because I’m not. I simply went out of my way to point out how absolutely boring certain disciplines become when they are turned into endurance events. Endurance has its place in many sports as a main focal point. Just not sports like arm wrestling, powerlifting, etc. etc.

I’m not telling you what to do or what to like. The thread title literally has the words “my thoughts” in it. But you are certainly welcome to do your best to change my mind on what I do and don’t like.

[Dylan]

On 12/23/2021 at 2:55 PM, Tommy J. said:

Okay I see what your saying. Your angle in a nutshell is- “guys who don’t like endurance events just don’t have endurance.”

since you chose that logic, I’ll match it with this equal and opposite rebuttal- endurance guys don’t like strength events because they don’t have strength.

If one has merit, then so does the other.

but no. Nobody I know wants to classify arm wrestling as an endurance event. And no one to my knowledge classifies full contact wrestling as an endurance event either. Fast power movements with heavy and violent maneuvers that are followed up by sudden stops do not, and will not ever classify as an endurance event. Personally, I’d love to see a less strong guy trying to convince his stronger opponent that they are going to instead play the endurance game in a bonafide wrestling match. While the only thing on the stronger opponents mind is slam dunking the weaker opponent onto the top of his own head as fast and as violently as he can. In that case, which opponent is more formidable? Which one would you rather face? The one who aims to run you out of wind? Or the one that aims to break your neck? And oddly enough, I know which opponent the onlookers of that match want to see do his thing as well. Weather they admit it or not.

And please do not assume I’m scoffing at endurance. Because I’m not. I simply went out of my way to point out how absolutely boring certain disciplines become when they are turned into endurance events. Endurance has its place in many sports as a main focal point. Just not sports like arm wrestling, powerlifting, etc. etc.

I’m not telling you what to do or what to like. The thread title literally has the words “my thoughts” in it. But you are certainly welcome to do your best to change my mind on what I do and don’t like.

Yeah a lot of endurance guys aren't into power or strength sports. You don't have to classify armwrestling as an endurance event since the ratio of strength to endurance is a scale. No one is armwrestling for a consistent 5 minutes 999/1000 times. It's already a power and strength sport. So when there's even a moderate amount of endurance involved people are reeling.
Full contact wrestling is considered a balance of power, strength and endurance. It's often used to signify the overlap of several different attributes. Wrestling or grappling with a problem for instance is about a mix of endurance, strength and power. You're really reaching here and you're plain wrong. Throws are power based yes, but grappling is about throwing, grappling/ wrestling, holding, and catching wind while controlling the opponent. You're 1 tracked here.
Your example of the power and strength based grappler being much more dominant is moot as f . People are complaining that the endurance guys are winning! Ridiculous. You're reaching way too much here. If power and strength are dominant then they have nothing to complain about. You can be strong though and have endurance as well. That's why this thread exists.

[Tommy J.]

12 hours ago, Dylan said:

Yeah a lot of endurance guys aren't into power or strength sports. You don't have to classify armwrestling as an endurance event since the ratio of strength to endurance is a scale. No one is armwrestling for a consistent 5 minutes 999/1000 times. It's already a power and strength sport. So when there's even a moderate amount of endurance involved people are reeling.
Full contact wrestling is considered a balance of power, strength and endurance. It's often used to signify the overlap of several different attributes. Wrestling or grappling with a problem for instance is about a mix of endurance, strength and power. You're really reaching here and you're plain wrong. Throws are power based yes, but grappling is about throwing, grappling/ wrestling, holding, and catching wind while controlling the opponent. You're 1 tracked here.
Your example of the power and strength based grappler being much more dominant is moot as f . People are complaining that the endurance guys are winning! Ridiculous. You're reaching way too much here. If power and strength are dominant then they have nothing to complain about. You can be strong though and have endurance as well. That's why this thread exists.

My opening line in this thread addressed you. I literally said-

• Lots of personal opinion I’m about to talk. So skip it if this sort of content cuts you deep, or if my opinions tend to occupy acreage of real estate in that head.

[Tommy J.]

by your logic, apparently “endurance” is a factor in every single physical exploit. And since your gonna get in here and attempt to paint anything physical that even remotely raises the heart rate as “endurance”, I’ll go ahead and let you know that you’re not as slick as you think you are. And your also oversimplifying my message to the point that it’s childish. You and everyone reading along know exactly what I'm referring to in this thread. Nice try at sounding witty tho.

[Tommy J.]

Actually, I’m not done. Lol!

I want to hear more about your grappling and wrestling exploits, since you’ve been so adamant about including them. How many years have you been grappling? Out of what city and gym do you grapple? Who is your coach? Who have you fought? Have you fought? If so, What’s your record?

[Tommy J.]

Or did you just feel like arguing because you’re a Devon super fan?

[Tommy J.]

Since you completely missed wtf my entire message even was, I’ll just force feed it to you in a short sweet question.

What better way is there to figure out who the strongest puller is than a double elimination tournament with all the top guys??

[Tommy J.]

You like my endurance yet?

[Dylan]

On 12/25/2021 at 9:07 PM, Tommy J. said:

You like my endurance yet?

I have spent many 8+ hour days arguing on the internet, having to squeeze for hours to get an ounce out of people and have it go nowhere so you do not impress me in the least.

 

On 12/25/2021 at 9:06 PM, Tommy J. said:

Since you completely missed wtf my entire message even was, I’ll just force feed it to you in a short sweet question.

What better way is there to figure out who the strongest puller is than a double elimination tournament with all the top guys??

This is fine. Double elimination 2 fouls and out is good.

 

On 12/25/2021 at 8:56 PM, Tommy J. said:

Actually, I’m not done. Lol!

I want to hear more about your grappling and wrestling exploits, since you’ve been so adamant about including them. How many years have you been grappling? Out of what city and gym do you grapple? Who is your coach? Who have you fought? Have you fought? If so, What’s your record?

I don't wrestle but the training style and resulting physicality that is most "grappler" involves extreme endurance, strength, durability, flexibility, work capacity; in every possible way the body can move.

Speed and explosivity is another side of it but the reason the main training components are "time under tension", "full moveset/ all ways the body can bend" and "overcoming isometric/ pushing the wall" is that it is suppose to build an incredibly thick foundation of muscle, strength, endurance, work capacity, recovery, durability, flexibility. This way there is no fragility, all injuries are easily recovered from, there is enough work capacity to train often and with sustained intensity each day, and to bring sustained intensity within and between bouts, while overpowering opponents by being generally immovable and stronger. The grappler is suppose to have such a great foundation that he can move onto training for power and speed without a break, such as in a striking art/ sport. That's why I think it's the best. Speed and power isn't necessarily most characteristic of a grappler or his training but it comes easily to one that trains like a grappler.

 

On 12/25/2021 at 8:50 PM, Tommy J. said:

by your logic, apparently “endurance” is a factor in every single physical exploit. And since your gonna get in here and attempt to paint anything physical that even remotely raises the heart rate as “endurance”, I’ll go ahead and let you know that you’re not as slick as you think you are. And your also oversimplifying my message to the point that it’s childish. You and everyone reading along know exactly what I'm referring to in this thread. Nice try at sounding witty tho.

I am pretty sure it takes strength to stop someone from pinning you. There's nothing wrong with double elimination. If someone wins though that's that, whether it's by being unpinnable and bleeding their enemy or snapping them. People like watching a struggle, and looking like your arm is going to snap off while holding them there is part of the appeal of Devon Larratt and arm wrestling in general. It is what it is.

If you want a sport where things are more interesting I suggest the full table arm wrestling. I'm not too invested in watching arm wrestling. I like seeing what level they can reach though so if they improve or show their training I check it out.

 

Endurance is indeed a component to all physical exploits. If your work capacity and endurance is low you cannot workout with heavy weights often because you will be too tired. Work capacity is a good training goal for anyone. You can't get through a long difficult set, nor a workout with poor endurance and work capacity either.

You should try wearing ankle and wrist weights with a weighted vest for endurance/ work capacity gains. You may find it more appealing than working out for an hour every day.

I am wearing 2 x 10 lb ankle weights, 2 x 5 lb wrist weights and a 32 lb weight vest 24/7. The 80 lb weight vest can be tiring to wear just sitting in my chair. Steve Justa noticed that after wearing 100 lbs of chains one summer working on a farm that his body felt more dense, he moved better playing basketball and when he knocked into someone they went flying. Wrist and ankle weights should produce similar "denseness". A lot of articles call it unsafe because they're websites that appeal to soccer moms and dad bods, making shit up while regurgitating the bare minimum of what fitness is or sell products to people --- hence why they come up with yoga workouts to use these for too. Yoga means Yoga matts and those = $$.

The stretch is real and good from wearing weights though, and I notice people's shoulders are wider while wearing heavy weight vests, and I think this may be long term if they wore it often. This also suggests to me that wide shoulders is a function of muscles that raise the shoulders -- hence without weight one must have strong antagonist muscles like the lats in order to provide postural tension.

Anyway, my point is that endurance work is fundamental and beneficial in many ways you are neglecting to consider. The person doing hard hard work for whatever sport 4 hours a day in 1 hour sessions, 6 days a week, is going to beat the guy doing 1.5 hours of work 4 days a week and with long rest times. Assuming they've been training the same amount of years. I would guess that the former would do more in a year than others do in 5.