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Short steel estimated ratings/calibrations


devinhoo

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I've spent a lot of time digging through the archives and talking to fellow benders and vendors trying to compile a list of ratings for types of steel and bolts at various diameters and lengths. This is by no means all inclusive, but it's something I've been slowly working on over the past year of bending. My goal is not to replace any of the hard work put in by Eric Milfeld and the like, rather just put it all in one place. 

 

http://eatchalkgetbig.weeblysite.com/estimations

 

Here's a screenshot of the top of the page, but it goes down pretty far. I've tried to organize it by type to make it easier for people.

 

Screen Shot 2021-07-18 at 5.50.26 PM.png

Edited by devinhoo
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  • 2 months later...

This is a great collection of work, awesome job! 

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  • 4 months later...

I completely re-vamped the rating data for CRS, SS, and drill rod on my website. This new update highlights some math and conversions i've been working on in the background for months but haven't had the time to re-format in such a way that it would be useful to anyone else. These ratings numbers are based off of known ratings from 7" bars and categorized by material and then shape. 

IMG_4928.thumb.jpeg.d3701bf1e1d1d2e90228d8b6c8afc40e.jpeg

I also worked out some math about how the rating of a bar would change at a shorter or longer length. Hopefully this makes it easier for folks to get the info they need.

Rating to length conversion.jpg

Edited by devinhoo
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Hey @devinhoo I'm I doing something wrong. On the drill rod chart i cant get it to scroll over to see the ratings.

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1 hour ago, jculpepper said:

Hey @devinhoo I'm I doing something wrong. On the drill rod chart i cant get it to scroll over to see the ratings.

It is slightly trickier on mobile, my apologies. You may have to check on the desktop site. I can see what I can do to fix that though.

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3 minutes ago, devinhoo said:

It is slightly trickier on mobile, my apologies. You may have to check on the desktop site. I can see what I can do to fix that though.

Oh that makes since. I haven't tried it on a desktop yet. I'll give that try. 

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  • 8 months later...

I updated this page on my website to include data from the steel I've rated. If anyone else has any interest in rating steel it's not a difficult or expensive rig to set up. I'd love to see more folks rate steel around the globe so there isn't as much of a choke point when it comes too knowing the numbers for a bar.

So far I've included the numbers from Aaron Corcoran's site and David Horne's shop, as well as some bars that Gil Goodman rated. With my work schedule I might only have time to rate a few bars a month, but it'll add up over time.

 

Here are the numbers

 

image.thumb.jpeg.bf581aee66d80b51efd6aba56cd1c32a.jpeg

Edited by devinhoo
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I’ve got a rig for rating steel. Copied exactly to how Milfeld and Krahling does it. I’ve just not got enough calibrated weights to be able to rate anything.

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  • 2 months later...

Going to try and rate this thing. No promises it’ll budge. Had to buy new supplies for my rating rig to accommodate the diameter. Might have to rate it at 9” (or 12”) and go from there.

60B6CCCA-2CEF-4DB6-AC92-D89CD546B30B.jpeg

If anyone has steel that they want to know the numbers for, let me know! I’ve mostly been calibrating my own stock, but I’m always on the hunt for new steel to rate.

Edited by devinhoo
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On 11/8/2022 at 12:11 PM, devinhoo said:

Going to try and rate this thing. No promises it’ll budge. Had to buy new supplies for my rating rig to accommodate the diameter. Might have to rate it at 9” (or 12”) and go from there.

60B6CCCA-2CEF-4DB6-AC92-D89CD546B30B.jpeg

If anyone has steel that they want to know the numbers for, let me know! I’ve mostly been calibrating my own stock, but I’m always on the hunt for new steel to rate.

What have you found the grip-rites 60ds from HD to be rated at? I cant find a clear answer other than all over the place.  

And the HDs near me don't sell them anymore, they have brite 60ds that are way harder.. 

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On 11/11/2022 at 3:11 AM, Blacksmith513 said:

What have you found the grip-rites 60ds from HD to be rated at? I cant find a clear answer other than all over the place.  

And the HDs near me don't sell them anymore, they have brite 60ds that are way harder.. 

I've rated some Galvanized Grip-Rite 60d's from Lowe's that were about 240. For whatever reason the ones from Home Depot do seem to be different though, but I haven't found any recently to rate. The HD ones sharper point and definitely a little tougher than the ones from Lowe's but still easier than the bright 60d's. I'll let you know if I do come across any. 

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2 minutes ago, devinhoo said:

I've rated some Galvanized Grip-Rite 60d's from Lowe's that were about 240. For whatever reason the ones from Home Depot do seem to be different though, but I haven't found any recently to rate. The HD ones sharper point and definitely a little tougher than the ones from Lowe's but still easier than the bright 60d's. I'll let you know if I do come across any. 

have you tried any from your local hardware store. For me, I found mine are close to G5s

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9 hours ago, devinhoo said:

I've rated some Galvanized Grip-Rite 60d's from Lowe's that were about 240. For whatever reason the ones from Home Depot do seem to be different though, but I haven't found any recently to rate. The HD ones sharper point and definitely a little tougher than the ones from Lowe's but still easier than the bright 60d's. I'll let you know if I do come across any. 

If you would like some, I could mail some to you. I have 3 boxes.. I could send you some from each. I'll pm you.

My HD only sells the brites now.. I only tried them once when I was tired and all I got was a good kink.. But I think I could reverse bend one with suedes if i was fresh. Felt slightly less hard than my G5's that I can only slightly kink.  

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Btw, on the Bolts the head markings can make a significant difference on each grade of bolt too. Just something to keep in mind.

Additionally when I was still bending, there was something that was useful for me when comparing things of different diameters of similar types of steel and different shapes to get my relative progression numbers. There were not as many options out there of pre-supplied bars so alot of the progression work was with other sourced steel, etc. Anyway the thing was I got pretty good relative progressions and estimates of rating not only on percentages for change in length but also for difference in calculated cross-sectional area of the bar. So calculating area of the round, square, or hex. With that I could switch between round, hex, or square as well as doing machined bars for micro-progressions and have a fairly good idea of what ballpark rating I was working with. That without having to load up every damn type and length and diameter in the ratings rig to test. My own ratings rig had the same connection specifics on how the bar was attached and held as Eric's but I actually used a custom 3' tall loading pin I made and an engine hoist to lift it. I was able to cross test steel batches that I had, that Eric had also done back then. The numbers were the same. So don't be afraid to get creative.

Lastly, I recently took down my az-grip site and my gripratings.com site. Both had the steel ratings up there. If someone needs the data that was in it, I still have SQL backups of the database and can generate a formatted export of the data if needed. Like excel or a CSV file, etc.

- Aaron

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47 minutes ago, acorn said:

Btw, on the Bolts the head markings can make a significant difference on each grade of bolt too. Just something to keep in mind.

Additionally when I was still bending, there was something that was useful for me when comparing things of different diameters of similar types of steel and different shapes to get my relative progression numbers. There were not as many options out there of pre-supplied bars so alot of the progression work was with other sourced steel, etc. Anyway the thing was I got pretty good relative progressions and estimates of rating not only on percentages for change in length but also for difference in calculated cross-sectional area of the bar. So calculating area of the round, square, or hex. With that I could switch between round, hex, or square as well as doing machined bars for micro-progressions and have a fairly good idea of what ballpark rating I was working with. That without having to load up every damn type and length and diameter in the ratings rig to test. My own ratings rig had the same connection specifics on how the bar was attached and held as Eric's but I actually used a custom 3' tall loading pin I made and an engine hoist to lift it. I was able to cross test steel batches that I had, that Eric had also done back then. The numbers were the same. So don't be afraid to get creative.

Lastly, I recently took down my az-grip site and my gripratings.com site. Both had the steel ratings up there. If someone needs the data that was in it, I still have SQL backups of the database and can generate a formatted export of the data if needed. Like excel or a CSV file, etc.

- Aaron

This is awesome! Never thought to use the cross sectional area of the steel with the rating to get an estimate. Ill have to add that into my calculation when rating steel to see if there is any correlations. 

Have you guys ever experimented with the angle of attachment with the U bolt and how it affects the rating?

Wiggy and I have been doing some method development with steel rating and came to find that changing the angle from 50 degrees to 70 degrees increased the rating by 5-10% depending on the length of steel.

Also I am lucky that I saved the ratings data before the site went down, but its great that you also have copies.

Edited by bruce1337
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25 minutes ago, bruce1337 said:

This is awesome! Never thought to use the cross sectional area of the steel with the rating to get an estimate. Ill have to add that into my calculation when rating steel to see if there is any correlations. 

Have you guys ever experimented with the angle of attachment with the U bolt and how it affects the rating?

Wiggy and I have been doing some method development with steel rating and came to find that changing the angle from 50 degrees to 70 degrees increased the rating by 5-10% depending on the length of steel.

Also I am lucky that I saved the ratings data before the site went down, but its great that you also have copies.

No Problem. I'm not on here very much anymore and lucky I happened to catch this thread. Can't remember doing any work on attachment angle.

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7 hours ago, Blacksmith513 said:

If you would like some, I could mail some to you. I have 3 boxes.. I could send you some from each. I'll pm you.

My HD only sells the brites now.. I only tried them once when I was tired and all I got was a good kink.. But I think I could reverse bend one with suedes if i was fresh. Felt slightly less hard than my G5's that I can only slightly kink.  

I wonder if it's a regional thing. When I lived in New England all the 60d's were galvanized, but now that I live in the PNW it seems to be all bright nails. Not that I mind but it would be cool to get some numbers on other nails. 

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6 hours ago, bruce1337 said:

This is awesome! Never thought to use the cross sectional area of the steel with the rating to get an estimate. Ill have to add that into my calculation when rating steel to see if there is any correlations. 

Have you guys ever experimented with the angle of attachment with the U bolt and how it affects the rating?

Wiggy and I have been doing some method development with steel rating and came to find that changing the angle from 50 degrees to 70 degrees increased the rating by 5-10% depending on the length of steel.

Also I am lucky that I saved the ratings data before the site went down, but its great that you also have copies.

I've been using two 10" chains connected to a handle based on this old post. Works out that McMaster's 1/2" cable clamps are 1.5" across so you just have to make sure the end of the bar is flush and then the clamp will be centered at 3/4" from the end.

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9 hours ago, devinhoo said:

I've been using two 10" chains connected to a handle based on this old post. Works out that McMaster's 1/2" cable clamps are 1.5" across so you just have to make sure the end of the bar is flush and then the clamp will be centered at 3/4" from the end.

Thanks for this! Had no idea the chain length was fixed. 

In the case for Krahling/Milfeld rating system with a 7" bar and 10" chain attached 3/4" from the end equals about a 74° angle whereas myself and Wiggy were using an 8" chain to fix the angle to 70° (we decided on 70 just to have a nice round number as a starting point).

The main caveat with the old rating method is that if the chain length remains constant the angle will become larger (6" bar being almost 77°) and from what we have found, the larger angles increase the rating. 

Keeping the angle constant would be the best approach when rating steel so you prevent over inflating the rating when cutting bars shorter.

So as you rate shorter bars, the chain length would also become shorter to keep the angle constant. 

received_636669714825283~2.jpg

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21 hours ago, bruce1337 said:

Thanks for this! Had no idea the chain length was fixed. 

In the case for Krahling/Milfeld rating system with a 7" bar and 10" chain attached 3/4" from the end equals about a 74° angle whereas myself and Wiggy were using an 8" chain to fix the angle to 70° (we decided on 70 just to have a nice round number as a starting point).

The main caveat with the old rating method is that if the chain length remains constant the angle will become larger (6" bar being almost 77°) and from what we have found, the larger angles increase the rating. 

Keeping the angle constant would be the best approach when rating steel so you prevent over inflating the rating when cutting bars shorter.

So as you rate shorter bars, the chain length would also become shorter to keep the angle constant. 

received_636669714825283~2.jpg

That's a really good point. I've wondered that when I rate longer bars if the chain length changes the rating, and i'm sure that the opposite is true for shorter bars. Feels like another reason to try and standardize things one way or another. I've been trying to rate things at 7" as much as I can, even cut down bars like 10" spikes or Gold Nails.

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2 hours ago, devinhoo said:

That's a really good point. I've wondered that when I rate longer bars if the chain length changes the rating, and i'm sure that the opposite is true for shorter bars. Feels like another reason to try and standardize things one way or another. I've been trying to rate things at 7" as much as I can, even cut down bars like 10" spikes or Gold Nails.

I believe the gold standard method is to only compare ratings of steel at the same lengths. This way all parameters are the same.

The rated drill rod cert list from Benders Battlefield was probably the best cert list ever done in my opinion. Cause you keep the length the same and micro increment with increased thickness of the rods. And any notion of "hard" or "easy" batches was laid to rest with the ratings. So you could choose what rating you wanted to attempt instead of size specifically. 

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3 hours ago, bruce1337 said:

I believe the gold standard method is to only compare ratings of steel at the same lengths. This way all parameters are the same.

The rated drill rod cert list from Benders Battlefield was probably the best cert list ever done in my opinion. Cause you keep the length the same and micro increment with increased thickness of the rods. And any notion of "hard" or "easy" batches was laid to rest with the ratings. So you could choose what rating you wanted to attempt instead of size specifically. 

Sounds awesome!

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On 11/15/2022 at 12:21 AM, bruce1337 said:

I believe the gold standard method is to only compare ratings of steel at the same lengths. This way all parameters are the same.

The rated drill rod cert list from Benders Battlefield was probably the best cert list ever done in my opinion. Cause you keep the length the same and micro increment with increased thickness of the rods. And any notion of "hard" or "easy" batches was laid to rest with the ratings. So you could choose what rating you wanted to attempt instead of size specifically. 

I wish I had the means to batch rate bars, but I just don't have the time. I've been trying to rate each new kind of bolt with new head markings I come across so that people can cross reference what they have with the numbers available, but there's just enough variation in steel bars to make it tricky. I haven't assigned official ratings to my cert bars for that same reason, even though I have rated a few of them.

I've had a few people ask me if I would consider re-creating the Benders Battlefield cert, but I don't have any plans for that right now. Happy to help and support someone else if they want to though.

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