Is Closing Any #3 Gripper A Worldclass Feat?

[oldtimer]

This is in response to my defn. of "world class" (see above). To Suterp--please reread what I said--when I specified the all-time top 100 performers as world class I said "in events that are contested big time like track & field, weightlifting, powerlifting" I also mentioned that "grip feats have a smaller universe" and had to be calculated in a different way. "Universe" in this sense is a statistical term used in this sense as referring to the the number of people performing those events. In other words, not as many people are into doing grip feats as are those involved in track & field on a world wide basis. To Tom of Iowa #2--let me clarify. When I said 6 reps with a #3 I meant complete reps in succession with the handles opening all the way for each rep. Just as in my opionion 6 pullups means all the way down for each rep. To AP--The world record in the bench press is now 875 by Scot Mendelson. You can read about it in the next issue of "Powerlifting USA" --it was done under bona fide conditions, and it's part of my bench press with a suit category. The IPF record is 322.5 kilograms, about 710 lb. is held by James Henderson, set in 1997 in Philadelphia, and it was done without a bench suit, often referred to as "raw" even though the IPF doesn't require raw lifts. Since then, Mendelson has done 713 raw, but it won't count as an IPF record since it wasn't done under IPF conditions. Ed Coan doesn't have a world class bench, when bodyweight is not considered. Ed is a wonderful powerlifter, but would probably be the first to admit that his bench press is "relatively weak". His real forte is in the squat and dead lift. Again, every one is entitled to their opinion. Mine happens to be "world class" is someone who makes the 100 best all-time list in widely contested events, not flipping tiddlywinks on Thursdays between 2:30 p.m. and 3:30 p.m. while dressed in a polka dot bikini. Oh well!

[mobsterone]

Tom Black proposed that ~75% of any world record grip feat be considered world class. So, if lifting the Millenium dumbell (2.5" handle, 226#) is a world record, then 75% of 226# would be world class. By this logic a lift of an Inch replica (172#) would be a world class thick bar lift.

For Grippers, the toughest grippers closed have been #4 Coc's by two different people. If at least one of these was an average #4, than Tom's rule would set the World class bar at an average #3 gripper. If either Joe Kinney or Nathan Holle could close an above average #4, then "World class" would be a tough #3.

IMHO, a world class crushing grip should be a very tough #3 or BBE, but something less than a BBSE.

Robert

MDB 2 and 3/8ths and 228 lbs - Joe will thank me for my accuracy

[The Mac]

I find myself split on this question - I think the #3 closure CAN be called a World Class feat because only a limited number of people have done it, but it would not be so if more people were to do it in the future. I am sure if this question had been asked 5 years ago the answer would be a deafening "yes". So I agree with Roark that something should be classified as World Class based on the number of people in the world who have done it, but we are starting to reach the point (100+) where there are too many people who have done it for it to be a fantastic feat. Now, a "No-Set" close is a different matter......

For what it's worth, I believe that in 10 years time we could be having this discussion about the #4....

[Goatman]

I absolutely believe that closing the #3 is world class. Bseedot probably said it best. I don't know if my #3 is middle of the road, or is a weak one, but I have not met ANYONE that can come close. One of the main jobs out here in my neck of the woods is juggling pipe in the oilfield, and some of these guys have monster-like strength. Just because there are folks who can close the #3 without training (in terms of what we consider training) doesn't mean anything in my opinion. These guys probably have jobs or lifestyles that encourage a lot of grip strength. I don't find too many people who can actually close the #2, and usually if they can, they are heavy lifters, farmers, oilfield workers, etc.

Hopefully this wasn't too disjointed, and I made some kind of a point.

[Tom of Iowa2]

This is in response to my defn. of "world class" (see above). To Suterp--please reread what I said--when I specified the all-time top 100 performers as world class I said "in events that are contested big time like track & field, weightlifting, powerlifting" I also mentioned that "grip feats have a smaller universe" and had to be calculated in a different way. "Universe" in this sense is a statistical term used in this sense as referring to the the number of people performing those events. In other words, not as many people are into doing grip feats as are those involved in track & field on a world wide basis. To Tom of Iowa #2--let me clarify. When I said 6 reps with a #3 I meant complete reps in succession with the handles opening all the way for each rep. Just as in my opionion 6 pullups means all the way down for each rep. To AP--The world record in the bench press is now 875 by Scot Mendelson. You can read about it in the next issue of "Powerlifting USA" --it was done under bona fide conditions, and it's part of my bench press with a suit category. The IPF record is 322.5 kilograms, about 710 lb. is held by James Henderson, set in 1997 in Philadelphia, and it was done without a bench suit, often referred to as "raw" even though the IPF doesn't require raw lifts. Since then, Mendelson has done 713 raw, but it won't count as an IPF record since it wasn't done under IPF conditions. Ed Coan doesn't have a world class bench, when bodyweight is not considered. Ed is a wonderful powerlifter, but would probably be the first to admit that his bench press is "relatively weak". His real forte is in the squat and dead lift.

Again, every one is entitled to their opinion. Mine happens to be "world class" is someone who makes the 100 best all-time list in widely contested events, not flipping tiddlywinks on Thursdays between 2:30 p.m. and 3:30 p.m. while dressed in a polka dot bikini. Oh well!

Excellent post.

I'd also go along with 6 reps..as you described being world class.

[AP]

To AP--The world record in the bench press is now 875 by Scot Mendelson. You can read about it in the next issue of "Powerlifting USA" --it was done under bona fide conditions, and it's part of my bench press with a suit category. The IPF record is 322.5 kilograms, about 710 lb. is held by James Henderson, set in 1997 in Philadelphia, and it was done without a bench suit, often referred to as "raw" even though the IPF doesn't require raw lifts. Since then, Mendelson has done 713 raw, but it won't count as an IPF record since it wasn't done under IPF conditions.

Now we all know that Scot Mendelson's bench shirt adds about 200lbs to his lift, (in fact, I saw it do a touch and go all by itself with 225 once) so Scot is an excellent 675lb bencher. That Henderson did 710 raw doesn't disprove my point, since IPF allows shirts that record is BOTH the shirted and shirtless IPF world record since no one has beat it with a shirt under IPF conditions. That he did 713 is of little import because I myself have closed a #3 but am not yet a certified COC, - you've got to do it under appropriate conditions according to the rules! Of course I don't want to get into a war of federations here, so if Henderson did it under good standards I'd be willing to accept it. The key point is how can WR holders Mendelson and Henderson be benching only 675 and 710 while worldclass is only 45-75lbs lighter than this? Thats about 90% of the WR! (Scots bench shirt is currently ordering a sandwich in the deli across the street from me, pastrami on rye). Is Svend Kalson 90% of Marious Pudz? oops, no he was only 89% this year, sorry not worldclass... Now show me some raw records where tons of guys are doing over 630lbs in a good meet, and I'd jump to your side quick! In fact show me some guys under 250lbs that are doing 630 raw at all in good contests! few indeed! When we use a number like 630 or 525 we're trying to capture a wide variety of athletes with a single number (ie weightclasses, meet conditions, dif federations), and I think 630 eliminates all but the biggest of the big, favors guys in looser contests, and captures too small of the percentage of athletes - ie, Svend is not worldclass.

[Roark]

Obviously, AP, you prefer pastrami on wry.

[oldtimer]

AP,

You've decided that the bench suit adds on 200 to the lift, I'm not quite sure where that number came from, probably the same place where you saw the bench suit press over 200 all by itself. In fact, if I apply your rule and I could bench 135 raw, and then add a suit, so I could bench 335, I would be more than a bit amazed. I guess I would run out and buy one right now--guess I believe in percentages more than you do. Even percentages aren't always the best way to compare, but that's another story. Since Mendelson did 713 raw, IN COMPETITION, back when his suited best was only about 845, I can't agree with your call of him only being a 675 bencher--seeing as how he actually did 713. I'd think he's probably good for more since then. When you say that if tons of guys were doing over 630 raw you'd jump over to my side, well, I believe I've said the opposite of that--i.e. world class is making the all-time 100 list, in strongly contested events. So you wouldn't find a whole lot of guys doing that much raw. In fact, the number of guys benching raw these days, in contests, is probably well below 10% of all BPs reported in PL USA. So I do have to admit that some of my figures were calculated through making adjustments for the suits, not actual lifts. I agree that bench press judging is looser in some federations in others, and agree that if someone wanted to get a better PR he could find a looser meet to do it in. That's a given. However, I never really stated nor implied that I was setting a standard for specific weight classes. I was giving overall marks that I thought were even in ability--i.e. a 630 raw was about equal to a 700 aided bench press. Same as in weightlifting, for which I gave absolute marks, not for weight classes. I think you're tongue is perhaps sticking to your cheek a little with the analogy to WSM contests--I think you meant Svend Karlsen. For one thing how do you compare anything in those contests? They're constantly changing the events, weights used, rules, etc. If on the other hand if you're poking fun by my using specific marks to become world class, then I ask how would you do it? Just use everyone's opinion? Like, oh yeah, this guy's world class, but this guy's not. I believe you were bding sarcastic when with that bit ao89% wouldn't cut it, and 90% would qualify as "world class". Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd say that you have to have an arbitrary line somewhere, otherwise there'd be no qualifying standards for things like the Olympic team trials for track & field. I'm playing your straight man now, but how could you ever give Svend an 89% mark in the WSM? 89% of what?

[Fatboy250]

AND i don't think 525 bench is world class either...although probably closer than the aforementioned comparisons.

Lord if I tell a couple of guys I know that 525 is world class their heads will never fit through the door

A "gym lift" 500lb bench is rare. But a competition lift is even more rare, especially in drug-free unequipped competition. As for how many can, who knows? 75% of the best ever unequipped drug-tested bench of (711lbs) is 535lbs and that was by a SHW. But in order to have a true comparison, you really would have to compare the ratio of those that train bench to those that can do a competition 500 RAW, much less trying to figure drug-free status or not. Maybe 1:5000

Then compare the ratio of those that actually have grip training as part of their weekly program to those who have closed. You may have a better estimate than I do on this ratio. But I think a 1:5000 ratio would be gracious. If Strossen could give some indication of gripper sales, this may give some insight.

One thing is for sure, there are many out there that can pick up various grip objects and do various "grip feats" that don't even know they are feats in the "grip community". In fact, I know two guys that I train with occasionally that have both pinched (2) 45's on the first go. One deadlifted the Inch both right and left handed fairly easy. No grippers have been attempted. And I will say that both of these guys are in the 330-350lb range. Both would have a much harder time with a 500 RAW competiton bench and they both train for PL. So go figure????

Jason

[RSW]

Some people seem to think that RAW 500# benchers are a dime a dozen, yet #3 closers are rarer than hen's teeth. I don't see too many 500# benchers posting on PL boards, yet #3 closes are a very common occurance here.

IMHO an average #3 close is more on the level of a 350# RAW bench. Good, but far from worldclass.

Robert

[AP]

Good! Great! Perfect! (almost).

I agree will almost everything you've written, Robert, but I think the point is that gripping is still new. There was a time when 465lbs was the world record in the bench press (465 * .75 = 350) just as the #4 is the world record now. In the future, someone will shut a gripper harder than a 4 and perhaps world class will shift upwards to a 4 level. This board is very special with concerns to grip and I think you'd find about as many 525 raw benchers in the world as there are #3 closers.

Yeah, a #3 is like a 350 bench, in the future someone will grip the equivilent of a 700 Raw bench. But until then, a 3 is world class IMHO.

[RSW]

Good! Great! Perfect! (almost).

I agree will almost everything you've written, Robert, but I think the point is that gripping is still new. There was a time when 465lbs was the world record in the bench press (465 * .75 = 350) just as the #4 is the world record now. In the future, someone will shut a gripper harder than a 4 and perhaps world class will shift upwards to a 4 level. This board is very special with concerns to grip and I think you'd find about as many 525 raw benchers in the world as there are #3 closers.

Yeah, a #3 is like a 350 bench, in the future someone will grip the equivilent of a 700 Raw bench. But until then, a 3 is world class IMHO.

I agree with you that the worldclass # will constantly shift upward as more people train grip. As far as what is currently considered Worldclass I would look at it this way:

What would you have to do to get invited to a hypothetical Gripper World championship?

I am guessing the US team would probably be all BBSE closers now, and a few years from now would be #4 closers. I don't see all 100 Coc's making the cut, although if you were in a less competitive country closing a #3 might put you on that country's team.

[Bob Lipinski]

"Now we all know that Scot Mendelson's bench shirt adds about 200lbs to his lift, (in fact, I saw it do a touch and go all by itself with 225 once) so Scot is an excellent 675lb bencher. "

AP-

How do you know Mendelson gets 200# out of his bench shirt?

Mendelson has done 715 or so RAW in competition.

[AP]

Bob,

I know that you are a proponent of the bench shirt, and you must know that I am not. On this issue I think we can respectfully disagree. I respect Scot's incredible strength and the hard work that he has put in to achieve it (both RAW and with shirt). I stand corrected on Scot's 700+ raw performances:

http://www.irongame.com/videos/scot_mendel...01_rawbp_LQ.wmv

And although, in my mind, this video casts a little doubt on Scot's ability to pause on the chest with 700+, it eliminates all doubt of his pressing power and I will fully accept your account that Scot pressed 715 RAW in good style. As for him getting 200lbs out of his shirt or not I will point you to:

http://www.irongame.com/videos/ScotMendels...ull-875lbBP.mpg

Which is clearly 174-160lbs more than he has gotten in a competition RAW. I was ready to offer a full apology to all and admit that bench shirts do not help very much until I saw this near miss with 900:

http://www.irongame.com/videos/ScotMendels...00lbBP.miss.mpg

Clearly Scot's shirt was 'on' for this press as you can see how the bar rockets up from the bottom position (Scot's shirt has spent some time as an olympic lifter, you see) and it was the lockout that wasn't quite strong enough. Clearly, the shirt lifted 199-185lbs and this video shows that it was probably good for another 10 at least.

All kidding aside, Scot is an incredible bencher (and you're no slouch yourself) both with or without shirt. In fact, I think that Scot's raw bench is more than 150lbs greater than what I would consider merely worldclass (how's that for respect!). But I think allowing a workout buddy to help you lift more weight complicates things too much with respect to world records and world class distinction. Call me simple minded! I don't want to figure in whether a guy was wearing poly, denim, canvas, double/triple! thickness, backless, cut neck, shirt up to the elbows/not ect. Maybe once there is some kind of a formula for figuring out all of this we can argue over what calculated score is world class?

[amaury]

Bench suits SUCK !! They are slowly killing the bench press along with the ridiculous ROM and posture allowed today in some Powerlifting federations. I think it's sad.

[Tou]

Bench press always comes up as a point of comparison.

IMO, closing a 3 once was a world-class feat but it's not anymore. Elite and higher rated grippers are world-class IMO.

[Digdogz]

For those of us yet to get near that #3, raising the bar seems unfair. Mind you I suppose its just another mountain to climb.

Digz

[Tou]

For those of us yet to get near that #3, raising the bar seems unfair.

Digdogz,

I consider that closing the 3 is a great grip feat. Those who achieve it have all my respect. Keep working hard and be proud of what you achieve.

[RSW]

Bench press always comes up as a point of comparison.

IMO, closing a 3 once was a world-class feat but it's not anymore. Elite and higher rated grippers are world-class IMO.

Okay, how about a 450# C&J ? Is that the equal of a #3 closure ?

[AP]

Okay, how about a 450# C&J ? Is that the equal of a #3 closure ?

http://www.lifttilyadie.com/Results/64SrNats.htm (scroll down)

There was a time when 450 would have been a world record. Back then, a C&J in the low-mid 300's would have been considered worldclass. WorldClass must change with time, and maybe in 5 years time what is now considered worldclass will be considered unremarkable. But that is ok...

Edited October 10, 2003 by AP

[dyoder16]

Tom2,

anyone ever walked on in the NFL and been able to play without any football training?

Carlton Haselrig, Pittsburg Squealers

[OldGuy]

I only compare closing grippers to other feats of hand strength. Certainly not to power or Olympic lifting.

[ShelluvstheMostHigh]

On 10/6/2003 at 1:21 PM, Guest gripmaster316 said:

I believe it is world class, it is a world class feat of crush grip. I can't see why it couldn't be considered a world class feat. However, there is one loophole. Since the consistency of three's are sub-par, it would be somewhat unfair for one person to say that they have a world class crush grip because they mashed an easy 3, while someone else has closed a hard one. I am quasi on the fence for this one, however, I am leaning on the yes side more then the no because closing a number 3 (easy or hard) gripper isn't something everybody can do.

Agreed tho old post. I think if you close a number #3 thats recently been rated by a reputable co. Such as cpw 155-160lbs up. Then thats for sure a world class feat. Closing strong 2.5s and weaker 3s rgc 130-144 is still ultra elite  though but not quite as world class, unless your talking no set closes. So depends on the coc#3 s strength in my humble opinion. 🗡

Edited April 13, 2022 by ShelluvstheMostHigh
Update

[Blacksmith513]

I've got nothing to add, other than I was just a fat 10 year old who played video games when this thread was made.

 

[Fist of Fury]

Not world class by todays standards in my opinion. #3.5 (not the recent easier ones) are world class I think.

What is considered "world class" is mostly subjective. However if you look at competition results the data suggests that a gripper close above 180 lbs RGC using a 20 mm block should be considered "world class".