Is Closing Any #3 Gripper A Worldclass Feat?

[Tom of Iowa2]

Yes that 75% number is probably a little 'off'.........

But again I listed quite a few sports and activities and I could list quite a few more and nobody is going to be 'world class'in any of them the first time they try or within a few weeks of 'trying' these activities or sports..... but people have shut or nearly shut a number 3 and others have mastered it in weeks.

[Guest chips]

The 35# plate curl? How is that a great feat??

[Clay Edgin]

Dale Harder could probably provide some useful info on a better definition of what "world class" is. His points system for feats of athletic prowess could really come in handy here. There was a different discussion on the Power and Bulk board some time back where people were arguing that closing a #4 is the equivalent of a 500 pound raw bench press. After discussing it with Dale and him checking the records, he equated the #4 closure to that of a 700lb raw bench press, because only two guys have ever accomplished each feat. That, to me, is world class.

There are approximately 110 certified captains of crush. How many guys have benched 500 raw (no assistance gear of any kind) that we know of? I don't think it would be 110. It may be easier to find 110 guys that can bench 400-450 raw.

As for the other sports comparisons involving first efforts (9.9 100yd dash on first try, etc.) this is only applicable where the person closing the #3 has never tried it before. The list of people who have shut the #3 on their first try is extremely small, but it does have a few names on it. The list of athletes who have accomplished "world class" feats on their first attempt is likely nonexistent.

Edited October 6, 2003 by ClayEdgin

[Tom of Iowa2]

Oh Tom, as for the 525 bench, come on, don't pick two guys with extremely long arms and not known for their pressing power. How 'bout schoonie? or glen ross? or Huge-o Girard? Plus, make sure you acount for these guys doing some kind of chest work (dips perhaps?) not flat bench but close because I know that all of the grip work that these guys do is directly related to their closing the 3 first time or not!

As for 525 not being world class... its got to be close, how much has Ed Coan done? he's like in the 550 range I thought, and he's world class fer sure!

I just threw that out for fun...They are both horrible bench pressers(but both good overhead push pressers)

Lord if I tell a couple of guys I know that 525 is world class their heads will never fit through the door...now they have a world class grip and a world class bench..errr incline....That is if a 525 raw incline is world class?? ....not to worry not me.

[oldtimer]

I'm adding my opinion, because Clay Edgin asked me too. Here's a little of my background--I competed in my first highland games in 1962, and still compete, having won the world age-group highland games championship, at age65, in 2002, won some medals in both weightlifting and track & field over the years, dabble in grip stuff, and regard myself as a mediocre athlete. I've written a book called "Sports Comparions--You Can Compare Apples to Oranges" which is currently out of print, although Randy Strossen may still have some at Iron Mind. Anyhow, I've researched records for dozens of years and have applied some math and physics principles to rating different events. When you talk about "world class" basically it's how you define it. One man's world class is another man's ho-hum mark. I've set various bench marks in my book, one of them awarding 800 points (on a scale of 0 to 1000 points) to marks equivalent to the all-time 100th best mark

in events that are contested big time--i.e. track & field, weightlifting, powerlifting. etc. Grip feats have been calculated differently since some of you pointed out that there's a smaller universe of competitors, and rightly so. Just for the record here's a few samples of "world class" in my opinion--i.e. 100 all-time bests (rounded off a little bit). Why 100 AT bests for "world class"? Because if you are an Olympic finalist in track & field that's roughly the level you have to reach, and I consider Olympic finalists as "world class". BTW, Joe Roark's remarks are correct regarding the 435 Clean & jerk. Here are a few world class marks (100 AT bests as of 2001, rounded off): clean & jerk 513, snatch 416, squat (raw) 800, squat (with suit, etc.) 990, bench press (raw) 630, bp (suit,etc.) 700, dead lift (raw) 800, with suit 850, COC grip #3 for 6 reps with "average" #3 (this is iffy because of variations in grippers and because not all #3 closures have been made in contests as have the other events described above). Probably, not everyone will agree, but my idea are based on empirical results and a given definition. If you don't buy the defn. then you won't agree. All the best.

[Tom of Iowa2]

I think you are on the right track.A certain number of good reps on a #3 would -perhaps- be considered world class.

but then we get into real hair splitting 6 reps with a set? or 6 reps without a set?

I find the no set of a #3 more impressive(and I have witnessed several)but then hand size(apparently?)comes into play and some have indicated it might be too 'hard'to do a 'no set close'of a number 3......yet most 3 closer CAN close a #2 no set?

I agree with a lot of the other numbers you put up.i thought a 525 bench was a bit light.

Nobody without any practice or training will ever hit a-raw- 630 bench,800squat,513 clean and jerk,800 dead,800 squat- EVER...and the number 3 has been shut without any practice,no set i might add....

Edited October 7, 2003 by Tom of Iowa2

[suterp]

I'm no grip expert, but I'm a long time strength fanatic, and I strongly agree with Tom, rbrown, and RSW.

To me a good definition of world class is being in the top 0.1% of those who have "trained" on the event. So if 5,000 have trained with grippers, I would say top 5 is world class.

Regarding oldtimer's top 100 definition of world class, I can't agree. If you pick some wacky event that only 95 people have ever tried, are they all world class? I don't think so.

Tom - who inclines 525? That's unreal!

[Guest wells]

It's a world class feat because Ironmind says it is...

COCs are Ironmind's babies and Ironmind has made the decision, or rather has made the challenge and rewarded the feat. No matter how much we would like to change it or not, discuss or critique it, it will remain the same at least until Dr. S decides otherwise...

[Tom of Iowa2]

Tom - who inclines 525?  That's unreal!

I'll wait to get some pics or film before identifying.

Same guy did flat presses with the 210lb dumbells for 8 reps.THAT is a load.Picked up off the racks,no straps,walk back,sit down,lay back with them and press them.Long arms to boot....I personally think more of the strength involved in heavy dumbell lifts when it comes to the presses.If you are fairly strong...try it-as described- with a pair of 150's or 160's some time...an extra 60 lbs a side on this lift is mind numbing.

There are 3 guys locally that can incline 405 for more than 5 reps.Another guy has done shoulder presses with 155's and this older cat has smithmachine shoulder pressed 405 for 6.None are interested in powerlifting.None think much of their selves or their own lifts.All (but one) have very a good grips...and even the weakest 'one' in the grip dept can shut a#2......my perspective may be different.

Edited October 7, 2003 by Tom of Iowa2

[AP]

Now, I'm not an expert at powerlifting, Dale, but your 700 bench w/suit has to be way high for a world class (at 100) performance. Checking the IPF federation website I can see that the world record is 322.5 kgs or 709 lbs with a single ply shirt I believe. And this is at the superheavyweight weightclass. By your definition of worldclass, the world record holder at 125 kgs (heavyweight) with a single ply shirt would barely meet the criterea for a shirtless world class performance (approx 660 compared to 630). And the World Record at 110kgs (w/shirt) is below 600lbs (270kgs). How are all of these not world class? Partly because of weightclasses and partly because of the strict judging in the IPF. How can Ed Coan (world record holder/world champion) not have a world class bench? Do the other competitors laugh him off the bench platform? Do they bring out a tiny like bar with tiny weights for Ed to bench while the big boys toss up their 700's like nothing? I think worldclass is a performance that's enough to get you on the playing field, not neccessary enough to win, but it will get you there.

This has been a good discussion, I think we're arguing more over details than the big picture which means we're on the right track. I appreciate your points of view Dale and Tom, and for sharing them with the board.

(click on records)

http://www.powerlifting-ipf.com/

[Roark]

suterp,

The 95 who have trained on that event you mentioned

become world class by their very exclusivity. It could

be that if many trained on that same event those 95 would

be lowered to the bottom of the list, but as it stands, if

they are the only, they must be, by definition, the best.

[suterp]

It could be that if many trained on that same event those 95 would

be lowered to the bottom of the list, but as it stands, if

they are the only, they must be, by definition, the best.

Those 95 already are at the bottom of the list! They must be, by definition, the worst. Yet they are world class?!

The more I think about it, we're mainly arguing semantics. To me world class indicates a certain level of difficulty of achievement. To you it seems that world class means being one of the best in the world, regardless the difficulty of that achievement.

[John Beatty]

Joe R

In defense of strongman- There's plenty of guys who've put 400+ overhead on a regular bar, only 1 or 2 on a log. Give a 435 lb log to the average Oly lifter & I'd like to see who cleans it. Much more difficult because the speed & technique are out of it & it's all brute strength.

[Tom Black]

Glad you guys are having fun discussing this. I’ve only casually looked through the posts because I’m fairly busy these days. A couple of things I’d like to stress. First, my idea of “World Class” is not “World Record.” Think about the words here, both phrases use “World,” the difference between them is in the second word. “Class” implies a group of people, in this case, people who complete at the “World” level. “Record” implies the very best, the record. There can implicitly be only one. As I thought I said in the article, I looked at some world level weightlifting competitions and found that the last placed individual lifted 75% of the top, record breaking individual. Looking at Rick’s competition we have the exact same results, the last placed individual closed a #3, whereas the top placed individual (as is known) is very close to closing a #4. Tom of Iowa, the running figures I don’t think apply, the concept is that of weight lifted, not times, although with some analyses I think their may be a logrythmic relation between running times.

The second point of the article is that of motivation. That is, it gives people something to shoot for, to be “World class.” I think I’ve succeded in a way with this, after all, I wrote the article 3 years ago and people are still talking about it

[amaury]

That 75% thing is interesting indeed. Though we all know that the numbers given by Ironmind for the #3 and #4 "strength" don't mean s##t so i don't see how the 75% system could apply here. Add to this the famous gripper inconsistencies. Once again i think that the 75% system is interesting but not relevant for the Ironmind grippers due to the lack of significant numbers and the lack of consistency.

[bseedot]

As the question is stated, with its emphasis on 'ANY' #3, I answered 'no'. However, I think that the closure of an average #3 is worthy of being labeled World Class.

BC.

[amaury]

However, I think that the closure of an average #3 is worthy of being labeled World Class.

Cool then cuz i was a credit card width away from closing mine today !

Ok it's "off topic", sorry.

[OldGuy]

Tom's list of worldclass feats is just one man's opinion. Nothing more nothing less. I do not view closing a #3 as being worldclass. This is because they vary so much. Maybe when the Gripboards own certification program is up an running we can begin to talk about something as being worldclass, as the grippers being used will be a known quantity.

[bseedot]

Just a couple of stats...

2,562 registered members of the GripBoard

The GripBoard is a place where excelling in the sport of grip strength is paramount

50 of the registered members are Certified COC's

Right now, on October 7th, 2003, I believe that closing a #3 is world class. Whether it is still world class five years from now is unknown.

BC.

[2strong]

Here is my definition of "world class" :

The worlds total population is 6,302,486,693 individuals... Of that total 110 individuals have been able to fully closed a No.3 Captains of Crush gripper, with one hand under authenticated conditions.

If you ask me that is World class !

There are probably more people on this earth than the few we know of, who is able to close the #3 first try... But I think that list would be very...very small.

Lets say that 10 000 of 6,302,486,693 is able to close the #3 first try ( and I find that unlikely ) but it's still world class IMHO.

PS. Also remember that this place is "unusual"...

Here we think that closing a #3 is nothing special...

But when I got certified and Svend karlsen wasn't able to close my gripper I changed my mind about how "easy" it is to close the #3 .

I know that he has not trained with grippers before and he could probably close the #3 easy if he has, but when the "worlds strongest man" can't do it... it's not that easy to do... as many of us tend to belive !

And when even he can't do it... I have a theory that the rest of the worlds population ( - 110 coc's ) of 6,302,486,692 would also have a hard time to close it.

Edited October 7, 2003 by 2strong

[Tom of Iowa2]

Just a couple of stats...

2,562 registered members of the GripBoard

The GripBoard is a place where excelling in the sport of grip strength is paramount

50 of the registered members are Certified COC's

Had no idea there were so many rgistered users.

Interesting that only 63 people have responded to the poll.

[Sybersnott]

Look what happened to me in the Emerson Challenge. I took a #3 gripper that "thousands" had tried to close and couldn't, and I closed it.

HOWEVER!.... I would like to add that probably 80 - 90% of the people that tried that #3 gripper didn't know diddly about grip strength NOR do they know about the IM grippers; so I had a definite advantage.

So IMHO.... "any" #3?? No, because they vary way too much. A middle-of-the-road or "hard" #3 gripper - perhaps.

[Matt Van Weele]

I would love to be able to go all over the with ways of testing strength. You go into a town and post a challenge saying if you can do a certain thing they get paid. Take the #3 and 500 bucks to any who shuts it and then think about how many more really strong guys who could care less about grip training but who are motivated by money who would be on the list.

[The Gripster]

Tom I used to enjoy reading your log. Can you update us on if you are training grippers as much as bending and leveraging? Are you closing the #3 consistently enough to certify? How are you injuries healing? Thanks for any reply.

[Tom of Iowa2]

Take the #3 and 500 bucks to any who shuts it and then think about how many more really strong guys who could care less about grip training but who are motivated by money who would be on the list.

Yes if there was money on the line I know a few guys that would even go after the #4....just as money brought someone out of self imposed retirement to go after the RT nationals title.