Is Closing Any #3 Gripper A Worldclass Feat?

[RSW]

Tom Black proposed that ~75% of any world record grip feat be considered world class. So, if lifting the Millenium dumbell (2.5" handle, 226#) is a world record, then 75% of 226# would be world class. By this logic a lift of an Inch replica (172#) would be a world class thick bar lift.

For Grippers, the toughest grippers closed have been #4 Coc's by two different people. If at least one of these was an average #4, than Tom's rule would set the World class bar at an average #3 gripper. If either Joe Kinney or Nathan Holle could close an above average #4, then "World class" would be a tough #3.

IMHO, a world class crushing grip should be a very tough #3 or BBE, but something less than a BBSE.

Robert

[AP]

how come the calm period after (yes.) but the emphatic exclamation point after (NO!) ?

Trying to bias your polls 'eh, Do you by any chance work for Fox news or the LA Times? just wonderin'.

[Clay Edgin]

When I think of "world class," I think of someone doing something that very few other people can do. Closing the #4 and bending the red nail comes to mind. Closing a #3 isn't world class IMO. It's tough, but I think any average Joe with a strong will and a good training program can close it.

[Dan Cenidoza]

I say no, it's not world class. Just curious, out of the people who voted yes, how many can close a #3?

[Roark]

What other activity that only about 100 people on this planet

can perform could also be classified as not world class?

This is doublespeak.

[amaury]

It's tough, but I think any average Joe with a strong will and a good training program can close it.

I am that average guy Clay And i'll close that sucker, just a matter of time by now.

I voted no since i am no "world class strength" material.

[Guest gripmaster316]

I believe it is world class, it is a world class feat of crush grip. I can't see why it couldn't be considered a world class feat. However, there is one loophole. Since the consistency of three's are sub-par, it would be somewhat unfair for one person to say that they have a world class crush grip because they mashed an easy 3, while someone else has closed a hard one. I am quasi on the fence for this one, however, I am leaning on the yes side more then the no because closing a number 3 (easy or hard) gripper isn't something everybody can do.

Edited October 6, 2003 by gripmaster316

[RSW]

I am leaning on the yes side more the no because closing a number 3 gripper isn't something everybody can do.

I can military press 260#. Not everybody can do that. Is that a "worldclass" feat?

[terminator]

I'd say closing a hard #3 is probably World Class. That's where I think Mash Monster concept should be aimed......a gripper that is either a hard 3, or something of that difficulty.

[Guest gripmaster316]

You should be proud of yourself, that is a decent MP. What you said is very true, I said I was quasi on the fence it is very hard to determine. However, I personally think there are more people who can MP 260 then there are 3 closers.

Edited October 6, 2003 by gripmaster316

[RSW]

I have a question can you close a #3??

Not even close, but I think it is achievable for most people. My point about the MP is that most of us would consider a "world class" MP more like 400#, but very few people could ever approach that no matter how hard they trained.

If grip training catches on, the bar for "World class" is going to keep on rising, to the point where an average trainee will not be able to come close to it.

Robert

[rbrown]

no because I don't think enough people know about the grippers or train the gripper--we are so to speak in our own little world. For something to be world class, it means only a few would be capable of achieving it. It is a good achievement to close the #3, but I can guarantee you that if as many people focused on closing the Ironmind grippers as there were people that focused on bench pressing, you would see a lot more than 100 or so COCs. Additionally, many people do not know how to set the grippers. I think most big men would be capable of eventually closing the #3 with proper training and dedication. I do not think most big men could ever clean and jerk 435 lbs, which would be the equivalent using the 75% criteria. I've seen plenty of strongman competitors that can close the #3 because it is something that we know about and train. I know of only one that can clean and jerk 435--Marunde.

[Roark]

I'm not following that logic: A 435 pound clean and jerk is an easy

warmup for a heavyweight weightlifter, so the fact that only one strongman

has achieved it means little in the world perspective. Though 435 is an outstanding

C&J among strongmen, it is insignificant among weightlifters.

The parallel would be if he could C&J whatever it is currently that is considered

wonderful among lifters, just as, though closing a #2 may be significant among non grip guys, it is not the closure that is considered world level among those grip guys.

The potential of those who can accomplish something is an unknown. We

must judge by what is known, and there have been (guessing here) no

doubt hundreds of 435 pound C&J's in the past 40 years, even Naim S did about this much as I recall and he weighed what, 140 lbs?

So far only approx. 100 or so have closed a 3- the potential (guessing

again) is for many more to do it, but certification is not granted on

potential, but accomplishment.

[rbrown]

Roark:

I'm not trying to slam grip feats (because I love them), but the key part of my statement is that "we are in our own little world." Anytime I pull one out somewhere they are like "What is that?" As I mentioned on the board the other day, I let one of my friends who is a construction worker try the #3 and he got it within about a quarter inch with no set. He is probably not typical, but his also not one of the strongest guys I have ever met. I can guarantee you that he could close very soon with a little training; however, he will not train it. The are likely many, many like him who just don't give a crap about grip.

I am another example. Although I have lifted weights for years, ect., I did not train with the grippers and did not own any. A guy pulled them out of his bag at a powerlifting meet and I closed the #3. This was approximately the third time I had ever tried the #3. Because there is some significance to the feat, I decided to immediately buy a #3 and get certified.

You will never find someone who can just show up off the street and clean and jerk 435. That is simply not possible. That is my point.

[Tom of Iowa2]

No.

And here is why.2 people or more have slammed a #3 gripper shut first try-first touch.

Others have closed it(Dave)in a week or so....still others have closed it after a few weeks of work....now lets compare to other "world class"feats/events....

Has anyone ran a 9.9 second 100 yard dash first try?Has anyone thrown a 16lbshot put over 65ft.first try?Has anyone ever cleaned and jerked 500lbs first try?has anyone ever benched over 600lbs first try?anyone ran a 4 minute mile first try?anyone ever even thought of fighting any TOP professional fighter first try ?Wrestled with a world class wrestler-of their weight class- and had any success?Anyone squatted 800plus first try????anyone ever walked on in the NFL and been able to play without any football training? :laughDo you think any man of any size or strength could compete in WSM without any preperation and even be in the contest??? Some tough guy want to try the UFC champion without ANY training?Play tennis with a top-world class-tennis pro?Some of the above are skills other strength and power but none of them will happen and the list of world class feats is endless..................and they won't happen first try either...yet some have mastered the #3 VERY quickly or first try.

IT seems world class because statistically not many have tried or trained.

It's a hell of an accomplishment but not world class.

[rbrown]

No.

And here is why.2 people or more have slammed a #3 gripper shut first try-first touch.

Others have closed it(Dave)in a week or so....still others have closed it after a few weeks of work....now lets compare to other "world class"feats/events....

Has anyone ran a 9.9 second 100 yard dash first try?Has anyone thrown a 16lbshot put over 65ft.first try?Has anyone ever cleaned and jerked 500lbs first try?has anyone ever benched over 600lbs first try?anyone ran a 4 minute mile first try?anyone ever even thought of fighting any TOP professional fighter first try ?Wrestled with a world class wrestler-of their weight class- and had any success?Anyone squatted 800plus first try????anyone ever walked on in the NFL and been able to play without any football training? :laughDo you think any man of any size or strength could compete in WSM without any preperation and even be in the contest??? Some tough guy want to try the UFC champion without ANY training?Play tennis with a top-world class-tennis pro?Some of the above are skills other strength and power but none of them will happen and the list of world class feats is endless..................and they won't happen first try either...yet some have mastered the #3 VERY quickly or first try.

IT seems world class because statistically not many have tried or trained.

It's a hell of an accomplishment but not world class.

exactly

[Guest David Fralick]

I voted yes becouse i think its not about what the rest of the world could do if thay trained grip, its about what the rest of the world can do now(i.e. most cant even close a 2). To me saying closing a #3 in not world class becouse most people could do it if thay trained for it. Is like saying a 600 pound bench is not world class becouse anyone big enuff with enuff drugs can do it. We have to remember many board members are on the top of the grip food chain. To someone who can close a BBE a #4 maybe world class, but to someone who can only close a #1 a #3 is world class.

[AP]

if you've trained any kind of grip, then you've trained to close a #3. Strongmen who've done farmers walks, heavy deadlifts, or even construction workers who've used their hands alot have trained grip. Its not completely the same as using the grippers but don't try and play these guys off like they're setting up for a 600 bench and the've never touched a bar before. Could you imagine some of these strongmen after years of log pressing, pushups, and other uperbody (Tris, Delts, Chest, Back) benching 525? (700 * .75)? You've talked yourself Tom, about how some of these guys have huge numbers in lifts that they don't do often... how bout a week to train for 525 like Dave trained for a week for the 3? Also, a 500 C&J would be well over 75% of the World record.

Maybe this 75% estimate for WC needs to be changed, or maybe Nathan Holle has pushed the record up so WC should be closer to an elite in strength. But world class needs to be based on what has been done and not on what will be done in the future, or based on how many people in the world you THINK are super strong at grip. That construction worker friend has never closed a #3 and if he never trains grip will never be as strong as someone who has dispite his potential.

Edited October 6, 2003 by AP

[RSW]

David,

If there was a World Grip championship for grippers tomorrow, would all 100 Coc's be invited? Closing a #3 was good for 7th place (11.5 sec hold of #3 gripper) at Rick's contest. I can't imagine that more than half the competitors in a relatively local contest should qualify for the world championships. Maybe the top 3 (BBE closers at Rick's), from National level contests?

[amaury]

I'd say closing a hard #3 is probably World Class. That's where I think Mash Monster concept should be aimed......a gripper that is either a hard 3, or something of that difficulty.

I don't even think so ! Though, i think closing a #4 is probably world class.

[Roark]

It seems we are drifting: How many world record holders in track and field

made those records the first time they ran?

How many world record cleans and jerks happened during the debut workout?

If either of those conditions were met during their debuts, the feat is still world class. If the 100 meter time is (I have no idea) 9.0 seconds and one million men can run it that fast, it is still world class. If only one man can, it still is world class.

What I am trying to communicate, though apparently not well, is that the other

movements/feats we have been listing involve skill, speed, coordination etc.,

whereas, obviously if a newbie can grab a 3 and almost shut it first try, there is

a difference.

If some new guy, first time on the track, beats the world record in the 100 meters,

does that negate all those others within a tenth of a second to his time? The world

level is what the best in the world can do, regardless of experience or training or

technique, it is the feat that is world class, and whether newbie or veteran the feat is what is sought.

It is my guess that if all the NFL players trained to close the 3, many would do it within months, and a few within weeks. But it is the feat, not who might accomplish it, but who and how many have.

[Tom of Iowa2]

First of all let me say that its nothing personal....I will just continue to disagree for now.

I have read over and over again that the last 1/8inch of shutting a gripper is the "hard part"or the part that DOES need "specific training" and that lots of very strong men "have got it that close"...yet that two men- that we know of- have overcome this without any gripper training says a lot.That they live within 20 miles of each other leads me to believe that unless this area has been bathed in gamma radiation there are more out there that will do this.Yes Josh had been training grip(NOT gripper) for a few months but Ken wasn't at all(that I am aware of)...... AP< And it will take more than a week for Pfister or Jesse Marrunde(2 of the top 5 strongmen in USA) to hit a 525lb.bench anytime soon

Also this .75 equation???IF that was the standard to 'decide'what is world class...????? I just don't think a 12.37,100 yard dash(if a 9.9 is world class), or a 5 minute mile(if 4 minutes is world class)or a 48.75ft-last place at a mediocre JC meet- throw of the shotput(if 65 ft is world class) is going to hold up AND i don't think 525 bench is world class either...although probably closer than the aforementioned comparisons.

I am slow by athletic standards(football type speed and certainly track speed) but that 12.37 100 looks tasty.

Edited October 6, 2003 by Tom of Iowa2

[AP]

The 75% comes from Tom Black's definition of world class, because in a lot of ways we are arguing over what that means. Should world class be a lot of people or only a few? How few? top 5 in the world? top 10? top 100? does it matter how many compete in the event or not (ie what percentage of competitors are world class)? Obviously not everyone can be world class, there has to be some kind of exclusion process. And world class isn't just what seems hard to non-practitioners - it has to be hard to the competitors themselves.world-class

Here's a dictionary definition:

World Class

adjective

ranked among best in the world: ranked among the best or most prominent in the world

a world-class downhill racer

a world-class liar

"ranked among the best"

Isn't the certification process a way of ranking athletes for a fairly difficult feat? I think a certified #3 closer could meet this definition of World Class. But I understand how you can disagree...

[AP]

Oh Tom, as for the 525 bench, come on, don't pick two guys with extremely long arms and not known for their pressing power. How 'bout schoonie? or glen ross? or Huge-o Girard? Plus, make sure you acount for these guys doing some kind of chest work (dips perhaps?) not flat bench but close because I know that all of the grip work that these guys do is directly related to their closing the 3 first time or not!

As for 525 not being world class... its got to be close, how much has Ed Coan done? he's like in the 550 range I thought, and he's world class fer sure!

[RSW]

Also this .75 equation???IF that was the standard to 'decide'what is world class...?????  I just don't think a 12.37,100 yard dash(if a 9.9 is world class), or a 5 minute mile(if 4 minutes is world class)or a 48.75ft-last place at a mediocre JC meet- throw of the shotput(if 65 ft is world class) is going to hold up AND i don't think 525 bench is world class either...although probably closer than the aforementioned comparisons.

I am slow by athletic standards(football type speed and certainly track speed) but that 12.37 100 looks tasty. 

I think tom was looking at weightlifting. Here is the link to his article:Grip feats and records

You are right that in many sports the difference between "World class" and World record is only a few percent. However, a 525lb. RAW bench is pretty close to worldclass.