Axle lock out problem

[Roch Climber]

Recently getting back into axle DOH deadlift, just passed 2x bodyweight. I think i can do more but the lock out is giving me trouble.

I get to an almost locked position (it might pass as lock out in a comp i'm not quite sure but it doesn't feel right) but with my shoulders forward as i tend to pull with a rounded upped back. In a normal deadlift i would finish by tensing my glutes/going hips through but if i do that with an axle i think I tend to loose lat tension and as such a tiny bit of wrist flexion (maybe it's just the arm angle i loose or my legs pushing the bar i'm not sure but same result) which tend to open my thumb. I have to get to the dubious finish position and then i do some sort of ugly shrug/calve raise to get my shoulders fully back without having to go hips through all the way.  I can hold the bar when i get to the top no problem i feel, grip is not the issue outside of this particular angle. 

What do you think ? I'm not sure it's a technique issue or a strenght one (maybe if i just get better at shrugs, which i never trained, i can do that in one smooth motion? It's also pretty close to my max deadlift i would guess so that might be the issue). It seem it's the main factor limiting my pull right now and it feel really inconsistent doing it that way.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Roch Climber

[AdamTGlass]

You are able to doh on 2” / 50 mm bar double body but you don’t understand the lock out? Amazing

[AdamTGlass]

here are two lifters lifting over double body weight to lock out on the apollon bar- I would share more then 2 videos but it’s so rare to see that even 2 can be tricky to find. I would find it mind boogling you’re already so advanced lifting over 2X weight to not understand a deadlift. Jeepers indeed!  One is conventional and one is sumo so it’s hopefully helpful - shoot maybe these two knuckleheads need to hear what you’re doing to hit such crazy lifts homie 

[Roch Climber]

Damn you seem like an huge asshole, you think you are the only one training hard in this world ? I'm a climber not a powerlifter so yeah my deadlift not the best, maybe ask politely for proof instead of saying people are clowns next time if you don't want to look like a fool ? Anyway here is a link to the lift i did this afternoon which prompted me to post this question. Axle deadlift 165@80 . 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Roch Climber

[AdamTGlass]

9 minutes ago, Roch Climber said:

Damn you seem like an huge asshole, you think you are the only one training hard in this world ? I'm a climber not a powerlifter so yeah my deadlift not the best, maybe ask politely for proof instead of saying people are clowns next time if you don't want to look like a fool ? Anyway here is a link to the lift i did this afternoon which prompted me to post this question. Axle deadlift 165@80 . 

So what’s wrong with that lockout? 
 

and yes I assume you’re trolling or looking for attention because 2X body weight is super rare but this would be most likely case where you are very small - as a climber struggling to lift that particular weight the solution is it looks like your total pull strength is the limit so build your pull.

[Hubgeezer]

Roch Climber. It must not “feel” like it is a true lockout to you, because of the thick bar. To anyone looking at the video, it looks just fine. 

[AdamTGlass]

6 minutes ago, Hubgeezer said:

Roch Climber. It must not “feel” like it is a true lockout to you, because of the thick bar. To anyone looking at the video, it looks just fine. 

That’s text book in any league any meet right? It’s looking good to me 

[Roch Climber]

 

1 hour ago, Joe Sullivan said:

Just watched the video and it looked pretty darn good! Keep doing what you are doing, man!!! 

thx man but i'm really not satisfied with my technique, as you can see i get to whats look like lock out at 0:11 but it doesn't feel complete and i have to do that shitty shrug to finish the last few percent of the lift everytime (even on submaximal lifts, like from 80% up something like that). I don't ask this to pass a competition lockout but so my training feel smoother and more consistent and also so i can get to a more comfortable hold position when i want to do some without having to go down in weight from my near lockouts lift. 

57 minutes ago, AdamTGlass said:

and yes I assume you’re trolling or looking for attention because 2X body weight is super rare but this would be most likely case where you are very small

I posted it like that cause that's how we express fingers lift in climbing all the time and that's what is relevant to me and my goals. The relative weight of the lift felt relevant as it might be a body strenght issue. Judging by our respective online presence i don't think i'm the one asking for attention cause i post a question on a specialist forum sometime when i need technical help. I'm 185 80kg, i prefer to say somewhat lean .

 

57 minutes ago, AdamTGlass said:

So what’s wrong with that lockout? 

see below

40 minutes ago, Hubgeezer said:

It must not “feel” like it is a true lockout to you, because of the thick bar. To anyone looking at the video, it looks just fine. 

Yeah i guessed that's why i did a text explanation instead of posting the video which felt irrelevant at the time. Thing is it feel right after the shrug so i don't think it's the thickbar, and it's a recurrent issue with every lift i do, be it floor or rack pulls. Like try standing with shoulder rolled forward, if you go hips through they roll back nicely in a more anatomic position, but that make me miss my lift if i'm near true max everytime. I accomplish the same thing with the shrug but i avoid hyper extension of the hips i guess, which i also guess make me loose my arm angle or wrist flexion or push the bar, whatever it is make me miss my lift and seem to limit me. When i used to do classic deadlifts i had the same lockout pattern of shoulders forward except i could go past with this hips through motion i'm talking about which seem to fail me on the axle. Nobody else has this problem ? Maybe my deadlift is indeed just to weak, shame, i was hoping on an easier fix. (EDIT : but i start doing it at sub max weight so maybe it's just the lock out i need to work on independantly of the axle but that's pretty rare to have a sticking point there outside of grip issue no ?)

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Roch Climber

[climber511]

Maybe try doing rack pulls in front of a mirror so you can see what it looks like?  Personally it looked "more than good" - meaning if you could control it enough to shrug it - it's only a matter of technique and position.  It looked like you got pulled a little forward - like has been said - work the deadlift technique part - you have the grip.

Congrats - double BW on an Axle is rare air!

[Boulderbrew]

The shoulders back chest up cue may be helpful for you. It seems like you start with an arch in your thoracic spine. Keeping the shoulders pulled back will engage the lats more and help keep the bar close to your body. Good luck and congrats on the 2X bodyweight pull

[Mikael Siversson]

Pulling a doh axle to lockout without collars is quite different from doing it with quality spin collars tightened real hard. The difference is not small.

The number of people doing the latter on this board is very small. The vast majority prefer to do it the easier way.

You have to fight the bar more when the plates do not spin. The difference between the two examples above is easily 5% if not more. 

The collars only stay tight for one rep btw.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Mikael Siversson

[Mikael Siversson]

9 hours ago, Roch Climber said:

 

thx man but i'm really not satisfied with my technique, as you can see i get to whats look like lock out at 0:11 but it doesn't feel complete and i have to do that shitty shrug to finish the last few percent of the lift everytime (even on submaximal lifts, like from 80% up something like that). I don't ask this to pass a competition lockout but so my training feel smoother and more consistent and also so i can get to a more comfortable hold position when i want to do some without having to go down in weight from my near lockouts lift. 

 

 

I think your main problem with a 'perfect' lockout is that you have a lowish overall upper body strength relative to your grip strength.

[Climber028]

I'm not sure a double bodyweight axle lift is as rare as we think it is. I have it and I'm relatively weak in the grip community but just very light. I suspect a lot of climbers are capable of this but just have never tried it or even know what an axle is. In general it's a hard feat but not for the sub 150lb guys. 

[climber511]

22 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

I'm not sure a double bodyweight axle lift is as rare as we think it is. I have it and I'm relatively weak in the grip community but just very light. I suspect a lot of climbers are capable of this but just have never tried it or even know what an axle is. In general it's a hard feat but not for the sub 150lb guys. 

Grip hasn't really attracted the climbing community - all the  buzz is here is about the maximums lifted and that's not the sub 150# crowd.  That's not likely to change I think.  And the advantage of Grip to climbing has been underwhelming at best.  

[Climber028]

13 minutes ago, climber511 said:

Grip hasn't really attracted the climbing community - all the  buzz is here is about the maximums lifted and that's not the sub 150# crowd.  That's not likely to change I think.  And the advantage of Grip to climbing has been underwhelming at best.  

Agreed. I just think there's people walking around right now strong enough to do it, even tho they have never tried. Just like there's people out there who can lift a blob, but haven't actually done it. 

[Roch Climber]

Yeah agree it would be a somewhat common feat if more climbers were into it. My brother pulled about that when he tried if i remember correctly and never trained for it except a bit of rolling thunder with me (he is way stronger than me in climbing and overall, about 75kg right now). And I know at least 2 lighter guys that could probably rackpull it untrained judging by their RT number. There is a video of vadim timonov doing a rep with 158 (the guy must be like 70kg maximum), and you all saw how Yves and Tanner quickly progressed at thick bar. It seem to correlate and there is a much bigger pool in the lowers weight classes so it make sense. But there is no light climber doing Mark Felix or Tanner lifts anytime soon as Climber511 is saying, different kind of pursuit and I in no way intended to compare the 2 using this kind of metric.

 

22 hours ago, climber511 said:

Maybe try doing rack pulls in front of a mirror so you can see what it looks like

Ok i will try that, working on it on rack pull make sense, i video tape to correct my form but i guess it's not as good after the fact. Thx !

 

20 hours ago, Boulderbrew said:

The shoulders back chest up cue may be helpful for you

Yeah probably, i will try that, seem like a good advice for me. Not sure i can do it at the bottom of the lift (I think i pull with my hips high cause my quads are very weak ?) as i probably can't pull 160+ with a textbook retracted shoulder form. But going chest up/shoulder back to finish my lift seem like it might be working as a cue if i have the strenght, right now i don't think about my chest at all, else i go hips and it don't work or i think only about my shoulders and end up shrugging instead of retracting. I tested with an empty bar and the mechanic seem to be working for me, just no sure i will have the strenght to do it on a max lift. I will pull tomorrow to test that. 

14 hours ago, Joe Sullivan said:

it’s got more distance away from the body due to the thickness

Make sense, i see where the discomfort might come from, maybe I just try to overextend to compensate then and i overthink this, I will watch for that.

12 hours ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Pulling a doh axle to lockout without collars is quite different from doing it with quality spin collars tightened real hard.

Never thought about controlling for that in my workouts. Looking back at my video it seem some of the weights do spin a tiny bit. That's really helpfull thank you, it would be very inconsistent if i only did it sometime without paying attention and the gap is that big. Do you recommend tightening them or putting them loose if the only purpose is general grip strenght and not feat/competition ? Do you know if it change anything except the max weight (relatively more thumb/wrist/finger?) ? Seem like fighting the rotation would make it a bit more about the wrist.

 

12 hours ago, Mikael Siversson said:

I think your main problem with a 'perfect' lockout is that you have a lowish overall upper body strength relative to your grip strength.

Yeah you might be right. If the other advices don't work i guess i will just do shrugs and rack pulls or go to a thicker bar. I thought i would run into a known axle issue but it seem from  the answers my deadlift is likely the problem. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Roch Climber

[Boulderbrew]

3 hours ago, Roch Climber said:

you all saw how Yves and Tanner quickly progressed at thick bar.

I definitely had an advantage with my background in climbing. My one handed thickbar isn’t drastically better now than when I was about 83kg. On the other hand, I focus on my deadlift a lot more these days and my axle has gone up 100lbs. I would like to see more climbers who consistently Boulder V10 (7c+) try the axle DL. I bet we would see a fair amount of guys pull 2X bodyweight.

[Mikael Siversson]

12 hours ago, Roch Climber said:

 

Never thought about controlling for that in my workouts. Looking back at my video it seem some of the weights do spin a tiny bit. That's really helpfull thank you, it would be very inconsistent if i only did it sometime without paying attention and the gap is that big. Do you recommend tightening them or putting them loose if the only purpose is general grip strenght and not feat/competition ? Do you know if it change anything except the max weight (relatively more thumb/wrist/finger?) ? Seem like fighting the rotation would make it a bit more about the wrist.

 

The collars will loosen straight away when you put the first rep down so my suggestion would be to do singles with quality spin collars tightened literally as hard as you can (for every single) and do repping without collars.

The difficulty scale is gradational with the easiest set up being one where most plates are smaller diameter and no collars to a set up where you use full size high quality iron plates as much as possible (eg Eleiko or Ivanko PL competition plates) and competition spin collars tightened real hard.

[Paul Savage]

On 3/29/2021 at 12:32 AM, Roch Climber said:

Recently getting back into axle DOH deadlift, just passed 2x bodyweight. I think i can do more but the lock out is giving me trouble.

I get to an almost locked position (it might pass as lock out in a comp i'm not quite sure but it doesn't feel right) but with my shoulders forward as i tend to pull with a rounded upped back. In a normal deadlift i would finish by tensing my glutes/going hips through but if i do that with an axle i think I tend to loose lat tension and as such a tiny bit of wrist flexion (maybe it's just the arm angle i loose or my legs pushing the bar i'm not sure but same result) which tend to open my thumb. I have to get to the dubious finish position and then i do some sort of ugly shrug/calve raise to get my shoulders fully back without having to go hips through all the way.  I can hold the bar when i get to the top no problem i feel, grip is not the issue outside of this particular angle. 

What do you think ? I'm not sure it's a technique issue or a strenght one (maybe if i just get better at shrugs, which i never trained, i can do that in one smooth motion? It's also pretty close to my max deadlift i would guess so that might be the issue). It seem it's the main factor limiting my pull right now and it feel really inconsistent doing it that way.

This isnt a axle deadlift problem or a lockout problem, it's just a deadlift problem and the problem is your not able to hold a good position and are on your toes not your heels so the weights pulling you forward. Essentially what your in need of is leg strength, quads for sure, but lot of leg curls, glute ham raise will help, generally posterior chain work, an yes lats too. You also need to practice getting on your heels so your weight is behind the bar not infront or over it and your not pulling up or forward but diagonally backwards. A good way to check this is to lift your toes up just before you lift the bar and if its difficult you need to get more weight on your heels, if its easy, your good to go. It's also worth noting that sumo deadlift is perfectly legal for gripsport too so might be worth trying that technique also if its not something you have done before.

[Lennix]

24 minutes ago, Paul Savage said:

This isnt a axle deadlift problem or a lockout problem, it's just a deadlift problem and the problem is your not able to hold a good position and are on your toes not your heels so the weights pulling you forward. Essentially what your in need of is leg strength, quads for sure, but lot of leg curls, glute ham raise will help, generally posterior chain work, an yes lats too. You also need to practice getting on your heels so your weight is behind the bar not infront or over it and your not pulling up or forward but diagonally backwards. A good way to check this is to lift your toes up just before you lift the bar and if its difficult you need to get more weight on your heels, if its easy, your good to go. It's also worth noting that sumo deadlift is perfectly legal for gripsport too so might be worth trying that technique also if its not something you have done before.

I have always heard to lift a big axle you need to pull the bar straight up not diagonally backwards as you would with ordinary deadlifts? Because it will start the rotation slower to lift straight up?

Edited March 30, 2021 by Lennix

[Paul Savage]

38 minutes ago, Lennix said:

I have always heard to lift a big axle you need to pull the bar straight up not diagonally backwards as you would with ordinary deadlifts? Because it will start the rotation slower to lift straight up?

It may make the grip marginally harder to drag it up the body etc but it's just going to make the lift miles tougher not doing so. Especially when grip isn't the issue like in this case for sure you need to sit back more into the pull etc but i would always recommend doing that and using correct form. You don't want hundreds of pounds drifting out in front of you and putting you on your toes. Deadlift isn't the safest of exercises at the best of times.

[Roch Climber]

2 hours ago, Mikael Siversson said:

The collars will loosen straight away when you put the first rep down so my suggestion would be to do singles with quality spin collars tightened literally as hard as you can (for every single) and do repping without collars.

I don't have iron comp plates where i train (climbing gym, lifting equipment is limited) but i will still try to tighten more and using our best collars and see if it works, thx ! 

 

2 hours ago, Paul Savage said:

It's also worth noting that sumo deadlift is perfectly legal for gripsport too so might be worth trying that technique also if its not something you have done before.

Thx for the advices, I think I tend to set up a bit more in front cause I try to avoid the bar scratching my chins so I don't loose my grip but I will for sure try to adjust the best I can. It seem indeed I'm much more forward than in my standard pulls, i need to find a middle ground. For the sumo and quad strenght I figured it would help tremendously (the lock out wouldn't push my hands forward as much probably ? and less distance seem great) unfortunately the carryover to my sport is probably lower and I just do those for training (and cause lifting, relatively, big weights is fun). I can kinda justify getting bigger hams, it help a lot on some stuff even tho it hinder you in others, but for the stuff i do quads are pretty much irrelevant dead weight so even tho I like deadlifting I try to do the variation I use them the least. Stronger hamstrings would probably help but I have no machine so more axle will do I guess. Maybe some hip thrust ? 

[Climber028]

Sumo is great for opening the hips which is a pretty good ability to have for climbing, also don't forget you can do sumo and conventional at the same time, this isn't an all or nothing decision. I do both pretty regularly, and sumo allows for a better hand position an on axle for many people.