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Volume training and feeder workouts.


Bartosz Robert

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Bartosz Robert
Posted (edited)

@monstrosity

Besides grippers I do pronation exercises with rubber bands and cables. I'm a armwrestling newbie ;)  I do sparring once in a while. Radial deviation and wrist flexion  is very important for armwrestling. I do these things with dumbells and a plate and towel. Plate curls, plate pinchers and of course sparring. My last sparring was 3 weeks ago. After armwrestling I feel a good pump. 

I've done a few flexion exercises on a roller and on a wrist wrench this week.

 I don't know if wrist extension exercises will be profitable for me. Those aren't the exercises that have the same movement patterns with grippers. I've never done or seen any ulnar deviation exercise. Ulnar deviation isn't recommended for armwrestling. 

Maybe all those exercises could have a carry over to grippers, dunno.

I'm trying everything. 

Edited by Bartosz Robert
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Hopefully

@Bartosz Robert

2 times a week with only singles, 10x1 or something like that is what I would recommend. With overcrush each rep. There are many ways, read some workout logs and stuff to see what gripper entusiasts are doing and alter it to your tastes. 

And ditch the pump workouts, they serve no purpose and will most likely hinder your progress. If you absolutely must achieve a pump for some reason then finish your strength workouts with one high rep set to failure using occlusion training. 

And yeah you could easily achieve the 3 with a mms set at least before the years end. It requires you to spend time to learn that technique though. Watch some videos and analyze the details etc. 

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Paul Savage
1 hour ago, Hopefully said:

@Bartosz Robert

2 times a week with only singles, 10x1 or something like that is what I would recommend. With overcrush each rep. There are many ways, read some workout logs and stuff to see what gripper entusiasts are doing and alter it to your tastes. 

And ditch the pump workouts, they serve no purpose and will most likely hinder your progress. If you absolutely must achieve a pump for some reason then finish your strength workouts with one high rep set to failure using occlusion training. 

And yeah you could easily achieve the 3 with a mms set at least before the years end. It requires you to spend time to learn that technique though. Watch some videos and analyze the details etc. 

Honestly this just isn't the case, high rep gripper workouts can be really effective and they don't hinder your recovery, you will typically recover faster from these than cns dependant workouts. Bigger forearm and hand muscles = higher strength. Bodybuilders get much stronger as they build up the size of the muscles, and contrary to what's often believed, the vast majority of pro bodybuilders are very strong. The number one method of bodybuilding is indeed chasing the pump and remember this is time under tension dependant, not rep dependant, that's why rep ranges often alter for different exercises. To achieve the same kind of time under tension with a gripper it takes a high number of reps as of course it's a much shorter movement than typical excerises. 

By the way I'm not saying lower rep ranges or even singles are not useful as well, they absolutely are, just saying higher reps can be very effective, especially to build a base to strength build off of.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Paul Savage said:

Honestly this just isn't the case, high rep gripper workouts can be really effective and they don't hinder your recovery, you will typically recover faster from these than cns dependant workouts. Bigger forearm and hand muscles = higher strength. Bodybuilders get much stronger as they build up the size of the muscles, and contrary to what's often believed, the vast majority of pro bodybuilders are very strong. The number one method of bodybuilding is indeed chasing the pump and remember this is time under tension dependant, not rep dependant, that's why rep ranges often alter for different exercises. To achieve the same kind of time under tension with a gripper it takes a high number of reps as of course it's a much shorter movement than typical excerises. 

By the way I'm not saying lower rep ranges or even singles are not useful as well, they absolutely are, just saying higher reps can be very effective, especially to build a base to strength build off of.

I know the importance of hypertrophy. It is a simple concept. 

So to achieve this you agree that he should do sets up into the 100s for optimal hypertrophy development? 

Got any proof that chasing the pump itself while disgarding intensity completely is an effective method for hypertrophy? 

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Paul Savage
3 minutes ago, Hopefully said:

I know the importance of hypertrophy. It is a simple concept. 

So to achieve this you agree that he should do sets up into the 100s for optimal hypertrophy development? 

Got any proof that chasing the pump itself while disgarding intensity completely is an effective method for hypertrophy? 

Depends what you mean by intensity, but there's lots of proof that training to get a pump is an effective method for building muscle.

As for 100 reps, I wouldn't typically go that high as it tends to be too much time under tension, though I like to use full range of motion on this so if you did mms reps for example you could definitely go to that or higher. The most I'd typically recommend with full range is around the 80 rep range with a gripper that's very light for you then gradually increase the resistance over time, eventually getting to typical rep ranges people use for grippers, but most being significantly higher and it would be for multiple sets each workout. It's always been an effective method for everyone I've used it with, it was the programme I had Becca on before she did a hard #2.5 ccs and 10 no set reps on #2 (her best was 2 no set reps on #2 previously).

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Hopefully
14 minutes ago, Paul Savage said:

Depends what you mean by intensity, but there's lots of proof that training to get a pump is an effective method for building muscle.

As for 100 reps, I wouldn't typically go that high as it tends to be too much time under tension, though I like to use full range of motion on this so if you did mms reps for example you could definitely go to that or higher. The most I'd typically recommend with full range is around the 80 rep range with a gripper that's very light for you then gradually increase the resistance over time, eventually getting to typical rep ranges people use for grippers, but most being significantly higher and it would be for multiple sets each workout. It's always been an effective method for everyone I've used it with, it was the programme I had Becca on before she did a hard #2.5 ccs and 10 no set reps on #2 (her best was 2 no set reps on #2 previously).

I am not aware of any. Afaik it's bro science territory. The pump itself doesn't mean much. And although high reps with low load has proven to be able to promote hypertrophy, It has also been proven to not be the most effective way. 

But lets leave it, there is never any point in discussing these things, also I have little if any interest in doing so. People never come to an understanding or agree in the end. There are lots of effective ways. He can train singles, a hybrid, cycling, dup, whatever. We can write him a whole book on how to train and why, in several different ways. 

 

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Bartosz Robert

@Hopefully

I found a few articles that are an explanation for pump. I used Google: Pump and hypertrophy, muscle pump, hypertrophy, sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, myofibrillar hypertrophy. I've read it all and came to a conclusion: 

The way you are suggesting me to train is for strength. That's how myofibrillar hypertrophy works. 

Maybe on strength days I should do more technique and focus on doing things the correct way. 

I don't think the feeder workouts will hinder my recovery. I also know that that's not a way to build strength, but size helps with strength. 

On 5/14/2020 at 5:17 PM, Paul Savage said:

Depends what you mean by intensity, but there's lots of proof that training to get a pump is an effective method for building muscle.

As for 100 reps, I wouldn't typically go that high as it tends to be too much time under tension, though I like to use full range of motion on this so if you did mms reps for example you could definitely go to that or higher. The most I'd typically recommend with full range is around the 80 rep range with a gripper that's very light for you then gradually increase the resistance over time, eventually getting to typical rep ranges people use for grippers, but most being significantly higher and it would be for multiple sets each workout. It's always been an effective method for everyone I've used it with, it was the programme I had Becca on before she did a hard #2.5 ccs and 10 no set reps on #2 (her best was 2 no set reps on #2 previously).

@Paul Savage thank you for your understanding. 

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy  is what I name the pump. Training for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy involves high number of reps. That's why I find that my muscles can recover quickly and workouts aren’t too strenuous. Central nervous system wise I could not train for strength x 4 or x 5 times a week.  In relation to the muscle gained that way, the strength gain is low. In a long run it's not a problem.

So you programmed workouts with a rep range of 80 reps? 

How long does it took for Becca to get to the hard #2,5? 

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Hopefully
Posted (edited)

@Bartosz Robert

Good luck with your training. 

Edited by Hopefully
Don't want any discussion.
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Maiche 25
3 hours ago, Bartosz Robert said:

@Hopefully

I found a few articles that are an explanation for pump. I used Google: Pump and hypertrophy, muscle pump, hypertrophy, sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, myofibrillar hypertrophy. I've read it all and came to a conclusion: 

The way you are suggesting me to train is for strength. That's how myofibrillar hypertrophy works. 

Maybe on strength days I should do more technique and focus on doing things the correct way. 

I don't think the feeder workouts will hinder my recovery. I also know that that's not a way to build strength, but size helps with strength. 

@Paul Savage thank you for your understanding. 

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy  is what I name the pump. Training for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy involves high number of reps. That's why I find that my muscles can recover quickly and workouts aren’t too strenuous. Central nervous system wise I could not train for strength x 4 or x 5 times a week.  In relation to the muscle gained that way, the strength gain is low. In a long run it's not a problem.

So you programmed workouts with a rep range of 80 reps? 

How long does it took for Becca to get to the hard #2,5? 

The progression to grippers seems to be an extremely complex phenomenon in itself and very variable between individuals. I can only make assumptions, theories like you but nothing convinces me.

With no training at all   I tried a coc 2 and a coc 1 at a friend's house 10 years ago. At that time I closed them with two hands almost no set when I had absolutely no physical training whatsoever, total sedentary. It was extremely hard but by getting very angry it was definitely closed. I barely closed coc 1 more easily than coc 2 which is really strange but true.

10 years later I begin to train with grippers (I'm still not doing any physical activity, just grippers )and I could try again these old grippers at this friend's house, they are as hard as my own coc 2 and coc 1 and I get the same new results even stranger than 10 years ago that is to say that the coc 1 is now very easy, I do 25 CCS repetitions with a coc 1 and I rarely close the coc 2 with MMS ... I think that muscularly I am much stronger than 10 years ago thanks to training but now my CNS is completely flat, I was only 28 years old and it was maybe much better than now. In any case all these facts make me think like most of the members of the forum that the grippers training is above all nervous adaptations especially in a beginner like me, but basically I don't know, it's just fascinating in any case!

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Maiche 25

 

 


 

 

I also do 20 CCS repetitions with a 1.5 coc, logically a 2 coc should be possible with MMS, but this is not the case just sometimes when I am in good shape

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Hopefully

Yup all training logic goes out the Window with these things 

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BeccaRoberts
On 5/14/2020 at 4:41 PM, Hopefully said:

I am not aware of any. Afaik it's bro science territory. The pump itself doesn't mean much. And although high reps with low load has proven to be able to promote hypertrophy, It has also been proven to not be the most effective way. 

But lets leave it, there is never any point in discussing these things, also I have little if any interest in doing so. People never come to an understanding or agree in the end. There are lots of effective ways. He can train singles, a hybrid, cycling, dup, whatever. We can write him a whole book on how to train and why, in several different ways. 

 

Paul's coached me to two world titles in grip and to a very high level on grippers. He's also helped others to achieve your goal of the #3, he coaches people to do it. He's doing that for a reason, he has done it for 15 reps! You should be a lot more open minded imo, especially when it comes to those more advanced than you.

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BeccaRoberts
4 hours ago, Bartosz Robert said:

@Hopefully

I found a few articles that are an explanation for pump. I used Google: Pump and hypertrophy, muscle pump, hypertrophy, sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, myofibrillar hypertrophy. I've read it all and came to a conclusion: 

The way you are suggesting me to train is for strength. That's how myofibrillar hypertrophy works. 

Maybe on strength days I should do more technique and focus on doing things the correct way. 

I don't think the feeder workouts will hinder my recovery. I also know that that's not a way to build strength, but size helps with strength. 

@Paul Savage thank you for your understanding. 

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy  is what I name the pump. Training for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy involves high number of reps. That's why I find that my muscles can recover quickly and workouts aren’t too strenuous. Central nervous system wise I could not train for strength x 4 or x 5 times a week.  In relation to the muscle gained that way, the strength gain is low. In a long run it's not a problem.

So you programmed workouts with a rep range of 80 reps? 

How long does it took for Becca to get to the hard #2,5? 

It took around 3 years doing grip to get to doing that. That was done after my shoulder operation. It was around 2 months after that I did that #2.5 ccs I think. I started with the strength shop 1 if I remember right then went up every session or two. I didn't get to finish the programme unfortunately, coc #3 was the goal but it's difficult to get enough time as I compete in strongwoman also.

We used those feeder workouts a lot in prep for the British championships with other exercises too and I won against Elizabeth who's the best ever in grip so they were effective!

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, BeccaRoberts said:

Paul's coached me to two world titles in grip and to a very high level on grippers. He's also helped others to achieve your goal of the #3, he coaches people to do it. He's doing that for a reason, he has done it for 15 reps! You should be a lot more open minded imo, especially when it comes to those more advanced than you.

How strong someone is can largely be attributed to genetics and have very little to do with knowledge. Paul being stronger than me means absolutely nothing, I can never achieve his gripper strength even with the best coaching in the world.

Structurally he is a much bigger man than me. Compared our structure of the hands and forearms, his bones are bigger, the width of his wrist is double that of mine. He's got big muscular hands with good palm/finger proportions for closing grippers. He also outweighs me by probably 50-60kg. Besides the bodyweight, these things are what they are and nothing can change that, and certainly not by studying training. 

The fault of not being open minded falls on you, not me.

But like I said, I wanted to avoid this. It serves no purpose. Regardless of what I say you will respond with 'Paul this, Paul that'. I'm certain he is a competent coach who invests a lot of time and effort in his athletes and his own knowledge. 

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Paul Savage
6 minutes ago, Hopefully said:

How strong someone is can largely be attributed to genetics and have very little to do with knowledge. Paul being stronger than me means absolutely nothing, I can never achieve his gripper strength even with the best coaching in the world.

Structurally he is a much bigger man than me. Compared our structure of the hands and forearms, his bones are bigger, the width of his wrist is double that of mine. He's got big muscular hands with good palm/finger proportions for closing grippers. He also outweighs me by probably 50-60kg. Besides the bodyweight, these things are what they are and nothing can change that, and certainly not by studying training. 

The fault of not being open minded falls on you, not me.

But like I said, I wanted to avoid this. It serves no purpose. Regardless of what I say you will respond with 'Paul this, Paul that'. I'm certain he is a competent coach who invests a lot of time and effort in his athletes and his own knowledge. 

I'm not going to do the pointless arguing on the internet thing, those days are long behind me, but I will say that you shouldn't be so pessimistic. The bodyweight wasnt just given to me, i had to work very hard to increase it, but it means very little when it comes to grip in reality (I've been roughly the same gripper strength at 95kg). My wrist is only 7 and 3/4 inch around and my hands are muscular because of the training I've done, they weren't just like that. The size is also actually not the best for grippers, the length makes ccs easier in one way as I can wrap my fingers around the handles more than most but it makes the close harder as I struggle to get my hand that tight and if the position is even slightly off have no chance. The width also means that my force is spread out a good ways up the gripper where physics is a lot less on my side. Grippers arnt actually made for large hands, they are designed for average hands to suit the masses. I also don't have any natural strength, couldn't close the #1 when I first started even after years of weights training and using my hands a lot fishing most my life. My max bench press was 35kg, deadlift 60kg etc I also recover slowly and get injured very easily. Ive seen night and day better genetics than me in loads of cases and yes some people are just freaks but I'm honestly not one of them (not that it's an excuse!).

The truth is you can achieve whatever you set your mind to you just have to figure out how to do it and have the will to do it. I wish you well.

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Lennix
47 minutes ago, Paul Savage said:

The truth is you can achieve whatever you set your mind to you just have to figure out how to do it and have the will to do it. I wish you well.

This is the opposite of true. You can just do as much as your genetics allow you too. 

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Paul Savage
12 minutes ago, Lennix said:

This is the opposite of true. You can just do as much as your genetics allow you too. 

Yes of course, but in reality that's so far above what the vast majority of people realise that saying anything is the same thing. There's probably nobody that has ever reached a genetic limit, and through my experience the single biggest factor in people not achieving what they can is lacking the belief they can do it.

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Hopefully
1 hour ago, Paul Savage said:

I'm not going to do the pointless arguing on the internet thing, those days are long behind me, but I will say that you shouldn't be so pessimistic. The bodyweight wasnt just given to me, i had to work very hard to increase it, but it means very little when it comes to grip in reality (I've been roughly the same gripper strength at 95kg). My wrist is only 7 and 3/4 inch around and my hands are muscular because of the training I've done, they weren't just like that. The size is also actually not the best for grippers, the length makes ccs easier in one way as I can wrap my fingers around the handles more than most but it makes the close harder as I struggle to get my hand that tight and if the position is even slightly off have no chance. The width also means that my force is spread out a good ways up the gripper where physics is a lot less on my side. Grippers arnt actually made for large hands, they are designed for average hands to suit the masses. I also don't have any natural strength, couldn't close the #1 when I first started even after years of weights training and using my hands a lot fishing most my life. My max bench press was 35kg, deadlift 60kg etc I also recover slowly and get injured very easily. Ive seen night and day better genetics than me in loads of cases and yes some people are just freaks but I'm honestly not one of them (not that it's an excuse!).

The truth is you can achieve whatever you set your mind to you just have to figure out how to do it and have the will to do it. I wish you well.

Oh, I do believe I can cert the #3 and will do so. Thanks for your answer. 

Same to you. 

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Bartosz Robert
9 hours ago, Maiche 25 said:
 

I also do 20 CCS repetitions with a 1.5 coc, logically a 2 coc should be possible with MMS, but this is not the case just sometimes when I am in good shape

The range of grippers I can close  varies from day to day. 

On some days I can use the RB adjustable on the 5-5 settings , close a ghp 6 (a weak rated 122), RB 210 (rated by my friend as a 124 gripper), or even close a weak #2,5. 

On the other days after just 5 - 6 reps with COC #1,5 I don't have any gas in tank. Same with other exercises. 

Two days without sleep and I can forget about grippers. 😕

 

 

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Maiche 25

Very interesting! Whether I am in good shape or not there are very few variations for my part, however I do not work on endurance at all. I have the impression that when I close the coc 2 rather easily I can quickly do a lot of repetitions with it and not necessarily close a coc 2.5 even weak like yours😑

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Bartosz Robert

@Maiche 25 on good days when I close a #2  5 times in a row, I can close this #2,5 too.  To close this #2 I've trained the close of  a #1 to 30 reps and a #1,5 to 20 reps. So I think that when I will be able to close a #2 10 times or even 15 times I will be able close a #2,5 on daily basis. So that my disposition will vary just on another scale. 

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honk
On 5/11/2020 at 9:09 PM, Hopefully said:

I don't see the potential benefit. Like, what is the purpose? 100 reps wont lead to anything apart from endurance 

 

It could help with recovery.

 

And there is research that shows that very high reps (70-100) or long time under tension helps build passive structures, meaning tendons, ligaments and so on.

Louie Simmons had at least do his athletes high rep work for exactly that purpose. Not sure if they do that at Westside anymore.

 

Armwrestlers might have figured out the potential benefits of high reps work independently, as high reps work is fairly popular among AWers.

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Hopefully
29 minutes ago, honk said:

 

It could help with recovery.

 

And there is research that shows that very high reps (70-100) or long time under tension helps build passive structures, meaning tendons, ligaments and so on.

Louie Simmons had at least do his athletes high rep work for exactly that purpose. Not sure if they do that at Westside anymore.

 

Armwrestlers might have figured out the potential benefits of high reps work independently, as high reps work is fairly popular among AWers.

Yeah, I looked it up earlier. It seems it is mostly anecdotes that support it, and actual research is limited. Overall there seems to be some merit to it. 

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