NAGSC Qualifications - updating the Feats list?

[Tom Flesher]

Over the past few years some new events have come into fashion. Both Jedd’s US Grip Championship and the North American Championships are/were slated to use the Silver Bullet, Napalm’s Nightmare, and Little Big Horn 6” lift. The LBH has been part of King Kong the last two years (in addition to Flask at King Kong and NAGSC and Euro at the US Championship, both of which are qualifying lifts).

Silver Bullet in particular has been contested quite a bit with the advent of Armlifting USA as well.

The current list is of course adequate but I’d love to see what a qualifying feat on these three events might be.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Tom Flesher

[devinhoo]

I have no idea how the original qualifiers list came out, but with all the new events it would be cool to see some new markers. I've had a few people ask me "what's a good lift on X" and I don't always have answers for them.

[JHenze646]

16 hours ago, Tom Flesher said:

 

The current list is of course adequate but I’d love to see what a qualifying feat on these three events might be.

 

15 hours ago, devinhoo said:

 I've had a few people ask me "what's a good lift on X" and I don't always have answers for them.

Gentlemen, a lot of the regularly contested grip events are recorded at Gripsport.org.

All the work in calculating, clarifying, solidifying, and communicating qualifications is done on a volunteer basis.  It would be nice to have standards for all the lifts, for all the weight classes, for all the genders but the man power is just not there. 

While it’s would be nice to just request additional qualifications, there isn’t anybody to receive theses requests and address them.  I am not involved in this process, but perhaps a proposal may be more effective than a request. A person could gather and review all the available data, calculate a standard for all the classes of athletes, and then propose a new qualification standard.

[devinhoo]

29 minutes ago, JHenze646 said:

 

Gentlemen, a lot of the regularly contested grip events are recorded at Gripsport.org.

All the work in calculating, clarifying, solidifying, and communicating qualifications is done on a volunteer basis.  It would be nice to have standards for all the lifts, for all the weight classes, for all the genders but the man power is just not there. 

While it’s would be nice to just request additional qualifications, there isn’t anybody to receive theses requests and address them.  I am not involved in this process, but perhaps a proposal may be more effective than a request. A person could gather and review all the available data, calculate a standard for all the classes of athletes, and then propose a new qualification standard.

Very true, but that's only competitions. There are lots of strong folks that never make it to competitions, and likewise sometimes only strong people end up going to competitions. Skews the data a bit, and still only addresses the best of the best rather than a strength standard. Yeah maybe the world record for an event is 100 lbs, but if it's only contested once every few years and the same half dozen people are all lifting 90 lbs+, that doesn't really help establish a useful scale for someone who can only lift 50 lbs. 

I'm not saying that a detailed breakdown by weight class has to be done for every lift, but it would be pretty cool to have some guidelines for some of the newer lifts that have come into fashion. Even for something simple like "men's above 93 kg or below 93 kg" would be better than nothing (like GripSportIG's last #TheGripGames competition).

I agree with your idea of putting forth a proposal rather than a request. There are one or two lifts that I enjoy enough that it might be worth it for me to look through some data and figure out a reasonable standard.. but where would I draw the cutoffs? IronMind has their "average, accomplished, and world class" scales, but where are the cutoffs? Looking at the BlockBuster pinch, "world class" is about 70% of the WR, "Accomplished" is about 45%, and "average" is 30%. What percent of the world record for a given lift would count as a NAGS qualifier? Or would one standard deviation above the mean lift be a better cutoff?

Additionally, the GripSport records page has been down for a long time. I think it's been weeks if not months since I've been able to view the records page.

[Climber028]

All you do is take the record lifts and apply whatever percentage you want to figure out average, great, elite, or whatever. All of those are arbitaray so you can use anything, or take the percentages from powerlifting. There's no wrong way to do it. 

[JHenze646]

43 minutes ago, devinhoo said:

Very true, but that's only competitions. There are lots of strong folks that never make it to competitions, and likewise sometimes only strong people end up going to competitions. 

 

 There are one or two lifts that I enjoy enough that it might be worth it for me to look through some data and figure out a reasonable standard.. but where would I draw the cutoffs?

The data is always skewed and incomplete. Comps allow comparison across reasonably similar conditions.  Surveys and studies likewise only gather information from people who respond to them.

all the standards are arbitrary until proven/disproven by additional data.  It’s the scientific method or around here, personal bias. There are a multitude of factors that should be considered for setting standards but for most of us this an enjoyable hobby not a career.

The various companies also keep leader boards for their equipment which show some interesting information.

If I can help you with anything or contribute any anecdotal opinion to enstablishing lift standards, let me know.

[JHenze646]

1 hour ago, devinhoo said:

 

Additionally, the GripSport records page has been down for a long time. I think it's been weeks if not months since I've been able to view the records page.

@acorn I apologize for bothering you. Is there any info you can share on this?

[climber511]

My top 50 list link died a while back - I Googled it and went to that link - it's been fine since ???

[Eric Roussin]

On 4/11/2020 at 6:40 PM, Tom Flesher said:

Over the past few years some new events have come into fashion. Both Jedd’s US Grip Championship and the North American Championships are/were slated to use the Silver Bullet, Napalm’s Nightmare, and Little Big Horn 6” lift. The LBH has been part of King Kong the last two years (in addition to Flask at King Kong and NAGSC and Euro at the US Championship, both of which are qualifying lifts).

Silver Bullet in particular has been contested quite a bit with the advent of Armlifting USA as well.

The current list is of course adequate but I’d love to see what a qualifying feat on these three events might be.

It’s been about four years since this list has been updated and I agree it might be time to add some of the more popular and recently contested events. The ones you’ve identified would be a good start. As in the past, the figures will be heavily based on lifts recorded in the GSI database. I don’t mind putting some draft numbers together.

[Tom Flesher]

11 hours ago, Eric Roussin said:

It’s been about four years since this list has been updated and I agree it might be time to add some of the more popular and recently contested events. The ones you’ve identified would be a good start. As in the past, the figures will be heavily based on lifts recorded in the GSI database. I don’t mind putting some draft numbers together.

Eric, and to @JHenze646’s excellent point above, if you’re willing to share some of the rules used to set the qualifiers I’ll be happy to do the spreadsheet hacking. I’d been planning to do some regression analysis to back into the decision rules after Josh pointed that out. 

[acorn]

On 4/12/2020 at 10:14 AM, JHenze646 said:

@acorn I apologize for bothering you. Is there any info you can share on this?

Jedd let me know a week or 2 ago and finally got me the files that needed to be fixed yesterday. My hosting provider (I host the SQL db and the backend interface for the promoters to enter data) did something that caused old depreciated mysql connection code to stop working on the page frontend that Jedd has on his site. I fixed the code for him yesterday and it should be back up.

- Aaron

[Eric Roussin]

On 4/13/2020 at 10:52 AM, Tom Flesher said:

Eric, and to @JHenze646’s excellent point above, if you’re willing to share some of the rules used to set the qualifiers I’ll be happy to do the spreadsheet hacking. I’d been planning to do some regression analysis to back into the decision rules after Josh pointed that out. 

Sorry for the delay in response. When I was involved in the 2016 update, I just tried to use the database to guide the threshold selections. I stuck to round numbers to keep things simple. Each feat should be of comparable difficulty for someone who has very well-rounded hand strength.

Here are some draft numbers for the three events you listed in your original post. The NN figures match the Double Overhand Axle figures, because many feel the numbers are very comparable, and I agree. I'd be curious to hear anyone's thoughts on these thresholds - whether some may be too high or too low, or if I'm simply way off base. I think I'm in the ballpark with the LBH, but the Silver Bullet numbers might be too easy or too hard.

2 3/8” Napalm’s Nightmare:
59k: 230lbs, 66k: 250lbs, 74k: 270lbs, 83k: 300lbs, 93k: 330lbs, 105k: 350lbs, 120k: 370lbs, 120+: 380lbs

Little Big Horn (6” Lift):
59k: 120lbs, 66k: 140lbs, 74k: 150lbs, 83k: 160lbs, 93k: 170lbs, 105k: 180lbs, 120k: 190lbs, 120+: 200lbs

Silver Bullet:
59k: CoC #2 > 10 seconds, 66k: CoC #2.5 > 5 seconds, 74k: CoC #2.5 > 15 seconds, 83k: CoC #3 >5 seconds, 93k: CoC #3 >10 seconds, 105k: Coc #3 >15 seconds, 120k: CoC #3.5 > 5 seconds, 120+: CoC #3.5 > 10 seconds
 

I also encourage anyone who's interested to throw up figures for any other commonly contested events. I think some back and forth on this thread could lead to some pretty solid numbers, that we could then present to the GSI guys.

[Kluv#0]

Arm Assassin Wrist wrench replica and/or Original Wrist wrench should be tracked by NAGS.

[Lucasraymond]

9 minutes ago, Kluv#0 said:

Arm Assassin Wrist wrench replica and/or Original Wrist wrench should be tracked by NAGS.

Eric and I need to figure out the specific rules; I personally dont like the cupped under, flexed elbow style but also see the aspect of "wrist" that that movement involves.

[Kluv#0]

3 minutes ago, Lucasraymond said:

Eric and I need to figure out the specific rules; I personally dont like the cupped under, flexed elbow style but also see the aspect of "wrist" that that movement involves.

I agree I don't like the cupped under and flexed elbow. Below is my "textbook" form for what I prefer. 

 

[Lucasraymond]

14 hours ago, Kluv#0 said:

I agree I don't like the cupped under and flexed elbow. Below is my "textbook" form for what I prefer. 

 

We were trying to figure out an objective ruling. My thoughts were to keep the MCP joint of the hand from not starting past the vertical on the underside of the handle and the judges will have to be strict. 

[Kluv#0]

51 minutes ago, Lucasraymond said:

We were trying to figure out an objective ruling. My thoughts were to keep the MCP joint of the hand from not starting past the vertical on the underside of the handle and the judges will have to be strict. 

I don't think it would be much of an issue once the rule(s) are explained and shown visually- the wrapping of the strap, neutral grip, lift height. It is a tremendous implement but definitely hard.

[Jedd Johnson]

On 4/12/2020 at 12:08 PM, devinhoo said:

Very true, but that's only competitions. There are lots of strong folks that never make it to competitions, and likewise sometimes only strong people end up going to competitions. Skews the data a bit, and still only addresses the best of the best rather than a strength standard. Yeah maybe the world record for an event is 100 lbs, but if it's only contested once every few years and the same half dozen people are all lifting 90 lbs+, that doesn't really help establish a useful scale for someone who can only lift 50 lbs. 

I'm not saying that a detailed breakdown by weight class has to be done for every lift, but it would be pretty cool to have some guidelines for some of the newer lifts that have come into fashion. Even for something simple like "men's above 93 kg or below 93 kg" would be better than nothing (like GripSportIG's last #TheGripGames competition).

I agree with your idea of putting forth a proposal rather than a request. There are one or two lifts that I enjoy enough that it might be worth it for me to look through some data and figure out a reasonable standard.. but where would I draw the cutoffs? IronMind has their "average, accomplished, and world class" scales, but where are the cutoffs? Looking at the BlockBuster pinch, "world class" is about 70% of the WR, "Accomplished" is about 45%, and "average" is 30%. What percent of the world record for a given lift would count as a NAGS qualifier? Or would one standard deviation above the mean lift be a better cutoff?

Additionally, the GripSport records page has been down for a long time. I think it's been weeks if not months since I've been able to view the records page.

We got that fixed about 10 days ago...

[Jedd Johnson]

On 4/12/2020 at 12:08 PM, devinhoo said:

Very true, but that's only competitions. There are lots of strong folks that never make it to competitions, and likewise sometimes only strong people end up going to competitions. Skews the data a bit, and still only addresses the best of the best rather than a strength standard. Yeah maybe the world record for an event is 100 lbs, but if it's only contested once every few years and the same half dozen people are all lifting 90 lbs+, that doesn't really help establish a useful scale for someone who can only lift 50 lbs. 

I'm not saying that a detailed breakdown by weight class has to be done for every lift, but it would be pretty cool to have some guidelines for some of the newer lifts that have come into fashion. Even for something simple like "men's above 93 kg or below 93 kg" would be better than nothing (like GripSportIG's last #TheGripGames competition).

I agree with your idea of putting forth a proposal rather than a request. There are one or two lifts that I enjoy enough that it might be worth it for me to look through some data and figure out a reasonable standard.. but where would I draw the cutoffs? IronMind has their "average, accomplished, and world class" scales, but where are the cutoffs? Looking at the BlockBuster pinch, "world class" is about 70% of the WR, "Accomplished" is about 45%, and "average" is 30%. What percent of the world record for a given lift would count as a NAGS qualifier? Or would one standard deviation above the mean lift be a better cutoff?

Additionally, the GripSport records page has been down for a long time. I think it's been weeks if not months since I've been able to view the records page.

We got that fixed about 10 days ago...

I don't get on the board much, since owning a gym, so I had no idea this was being discussed.  I'm certainly open to expanding the qualifications.

[Jedd Johnson]

Just found this older post and wanted to mention that I updated the qualifications with a few more lifts last week and I pinned it at the top of the Contest section.

[Tom Flesher]

On 3/23/2021 at 11:25 AM, Jedd Johnson said:

Just found this older post and wanted to mention that I updated the qualifications with a few more lifts last week and I pinned it at the top of the Contest section.

I greatly appreciate this.