Can't close#2 coc, but close #1.5 for 20 reps

[Fist of Fury]

22 minutes ago, hareboll said:

Not grip specifically, but a strength story I think is relevant:

 

When I was younger (18ish) I could deadlift 405x11, one rep max was 500ish(do much more now).  There was some online challenge where you got a t shirt if you could 405x20 so I started training for it. Got up to the point I could do 17 reps.  You’d think my one rep would have gone up right? Nope. In fact it may have gone down a lb or two, but I could bust out reps like nobody’s business.

 

Point being there’s a reason you don’t see high level Olympic weightlifters doing twenty rep sets every day but you do see a ton of singles, doubles and triples.

train for what you want to be good at. Heavy low reps 

You don't do high reps to increase 1RM directly, You do high reps to increase muscle endurance so that you'll be able to do more sets with heavier weights and those sets will get you closer to you new 1RM.

It depends on what training methods you use as well. 

[Bill Piche]

6 hours ago, Hopefully said:

An exaggeration. But it is like that, fluctuates a lot. Which is frustrating. You could easily go from closing the #2 for 4-5 reps to another workout be shy of closing it at all. And the other way around of course 

Agree with this. It can fluctuate a lot at times.  I don't think you were overtrained.  Your body just hadn't adapted yet. There is a lag.  Soreness is not an accurate indicator either. I have had some of my best grip sessions when I started out the session stiff and sore.

[hareboll]

1 hour ago, Fist of Fury said:

You don't do high reps to increase 1RM directly, You do high reps to increase muscle endurance so that you'll be able to do more sets with heavier weights and those sets will get you closer to you new 1RM.

It depends on what training methods you use as well. 

You could train endurance to be able to do more sets by doing ...more sets.

 

background:  have a masters in exercise physiology and worked as college strength coach.  I know all about periodization and stuff. I stand by my comment that super high reps aren’t always useful for strength athletes.  You’ll find exceptions sure

[hareboll]

27 minutes ago, hareboll said:

You could train endurance to be able to do more sets by doing ...more sets.

 

background:  have a masters in exercise physiology and worked as college strength coach.  I know all about periodization and stuff. I stand by my comment that super high reps aren’t always useful for strength athletes.  You’ll find exceptions sure

https://renaissanceperiodization.com/expert-advice/high-rep-ranges-for-strength-athletes
 

 

does an eloquent job explaining why (even for hypertrophy) high reps should be avoided for weightlifters/powerlifters.  And again, look at most elite lifters programs and you’re not going to find many 20 rep sets. Even in their hypertrophy/ bulking phase

[Fist of Fury]

30 minutes ago, hareboll said:

You could train endurance to be able to do more sets by doing ...more sets.

 

background:  have a masters in exercise physiology and worked as college strength coach.  I know all about periodization and stuff. I stand by my comment that super high reps aren’t always useful for strength athletes.  You’ll find exceptions sure

And then you're doing more reps... You can achieve the same thing by just increasing reps per set or increasing reps by adding more sets.

However there's more benefits to doing higher reps per set than just increasing endurance. Changing things up, hypertrophy, better cardio, blood flow, lower risk for injuries etc.

Super heavy training isn't always useful for building strength either. It totally depends on what you're doing and what you want to achieve.

 

 

[Fist of Fury]

1 hour ago, Hopefully said:

Also hypertrophy for future strength increases

Yes people get caught up way to often in doing heavy training all the time. Most advanced lifters stand still for very long periods. Is it because they have reached their genetic max or is it because their training/recovery isn't optimal? I think the latter is more often true. There's plenty of examples of people getting stronger when they change goals and do other stuff. Suddenly a year or two later they deadlift more than they ever done before.

[Mikael Siversson]

On 4/6/2020 at 9:01 AM, Vinnie said:

Usually closing a COC (under 2) 10 or 15 times would mean you'd be able to get the next one up.  The 2 to 2.5 or the 2.5 to 3 (and up) are larger jumps.

Based on Matt Cannon's data that is not true. The average jump from a #1.5 to a #2 is 23%, whereas it is 20% from a #2 to a #2.5, 16% from a #2.5 to a #3 and 20% from a #3 to a #3.5. So in terms of doing high reps with a gripper one step below the next it is not harder to jump from an average #2.5 to an average #3 than it is to jump from an average #1.5 to an average #2. In fact Matt's data suggests it is the opposite.

It is only harder if you measure it in time required to achieve the jump. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Mikael Siversson

[Bill Piche]

Training grip is not like training say your legs.  If I had stuck with using the traditional methods for strength training, I would have never closed the #3, pinched 2 45s, or lifted the blob.

 

[Fist of Fury]

1 hour ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Based on Matt Cannon's data that is not true. The average jump from a #1.5 to a #2 is 23%, whereas it is 20% from a #2 to a #2.5, 16% from a #2.5 to a #3 and 20% from a #3 to a #3.5. So in terms of doing high reps with a gripper one step below the next it is not harder to jump from an average #2.5 to an average #3 than it is to jump from an average #1.5 to an average #2. In fact Matt's data suggests it is the opposite.

It is only harder if you measure it in time required to achieve the jump. 

As you get stronger you also get more experienced and you train better to achieve your 1RM potential. I can't recall I've seen anyone who can rep a #3.5 for 10 or more reps who haven't closed the #4.

You need to find the appropriate grippers though. 10 reps on a easy gripper will not mean you will go up a step if that gripper is a hard one. But it should mean that you can go up half a level. If you're able to do 10 solid reps or 5x5 it will mean you can go up half a step in most cases. Providing you're able to set the heavier gripper. For TNS i'm not sure if it's true though.

[Hubgeezer]

4 hours ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Based on Matt Cannon's data that is not true. The average jump from a #1.5 to a #2 is 23%, whereas it is 20% from a #2 to a #2.5, 16% from a #2.5 to a #3 and 20% from a #3 to a #3.5. So in terms of doing high reps with a gripper one step below the next it is not harder to jump from an average #2.5 to an average #3 than it is to jump from an average #1.5 to an average #2. In fact Matt's data suggests it is the opposite.

 

I think the 1.5 is wonderful. It is a level that “ordinary guys” can achieve without dedicating their life to a cult-like activity (I am as guilty as anyone at that).

That being said, a 1.5 is not really midway between a 1 and a 2. Cannon’s data confirms that. Those percentages might not seem like much, but to someone with moderate hand strength, they are significant.

[Vinnie]

7 hours ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Based on Matt Cannon's data that is not true. The average jump from a #1.5 to a #2 is 23%, whereas it is 20% from a #2 to a #2.5, 16% from a #2.5 to a #3 and 20% from a #3 to a #3.5. So in terms of doing high reps with a gripper one step below the next it is not harder to jump from an average #2.5 to an average #3 than it is to jump from an average #1.5 to an average #2. In fact Matt's data suggests it is the opposite.

It is only harder if you measure it in time required to achieve the jump. 

I am sorry, the 1.5 to the 2 is the first larger jump.  I had assumed the larger jumps started at the 2 because I was closing the 2 right away but took a long time to get to the 2.5.  My bad.  The jumps after that appear to be about 20 pounds RGC from 2 to 2.5 and 2.5 to 3.  Those were tough jumps for me.

[Vinnie]

1 minute ago, Vinnie said:

I am sorry, the 1.5 to the 2 is the first larger jump.  I had assumed the larger jumps started at the 2 because I was closing the 2 right away but took a long time to get to the 2.5.  My bad.  The jumps after that appear to be about 20 pounds RGC from 2 to 2.5 and 2.5 to 3.  Those were tough jumps for me.

As explanation for my misunderstanding, this is from Ironmind's page:

• No. 1251 Captains of Crush No. 1 - c. 140 lb. (Already gripping, start here)
• No. 1251.5 Captains of Crush No. 1.5 - c. 167.5 lb. (Bridge to the No. 2)
• No. 1252 Captains of Crush No. 2 - c. 195 lb. (Life-saving levels of grip strength)
• No. 1252.5 Captains of Crush No. 2.5 - c. 237.5 lb. (Bridge to the No. 3)
• No. 1253 Captains of Crush No. 3 - c. 280 lb. (World-class:  get certified)
• No. 1253.5 Captains of Crush No. 3.5 - c. 322.5 lb. (Bridge to the No. 4)
• No. 1272 Captains of Crush No. 4 - c. 365 lb. (Be like Magnus Samuelsson!)

I know they don't use RGC, but without cross-referencing to Matt, I assumed they were proportionally accurate within their own ratings, and they have the jumps increasing after 2.  But I'd agree Matt's are more accurate.

Of course, from wherever you start, each successive jump is harder per pound than the last because you are at the margins approaching your eventual limit.  So jumping 16 per cent to the 3 might be harder than jumping 20-something percent to the 2.5 because you are getting closer to your ultimate limit. 

But sorry for the previous misinformation, which was based on my feeling about my own training and on the Ironmind packaging.