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Cannon
4 hours ago, Hopefully said:

That I would agree with Goran. No excuse for that. 

But I dont think it is intentional. It's just unstrict quality control. 

See I thought he meant you could make a certain gripper with a certain spring size, wind diameter, number of coils, and mounting depth so that the end result is a 130 gripper.

I would argue the economics won't work out and the end result will vary anyway. It would be easier to file an existing gripper IMO. 

 

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This is awesome Matt. You always do such a great job with the store. Now you bring another high quality brand to fill much needed gaps. Thanks for all you and Kristy do for us gripper nuts. Your store

Here you go nerds.    

Info regarding both points, yes! Regarding the Mash Monster grippers, they were created by Warren at a time when rating grippers was not a thing.  A logical progression was guessed at using a con

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Climber028

Making the spread and the depth consistent would be easy, targeting an exact poundage would be really difficult because of the way springs are made. It also doesn't matter because even tho some people like specific numbers, you don't ever need single pound precision to get stronger. 

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Goran Paulinič
3 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

Making the spread and the depth consistent would be easy, targeting an exact poundage would be really difficult because of the way springs are made. It also doesn't matter because even tho some people like specific numbers, you don't ever need single pound precision to get stronger. 

And you also cannot be fully satisfied with 20 pounds precision to get stronger. The tougher it is the smaller are necessary steps.

Filling ruins gripper in my opinion. What is filled gripper? You cannot add material any more when it is filed off.

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Climber028
14 minutes ago, Goran Paulinič said:

And you also cannot be fully satisfied with 20 pounds precision to get stronger. The tougher it is the smaller are necessary steps.

Filling ruins gripper in my opinion. What is filled gripper? You cannot add material any more when it is filed off.

Yes, you can. Remember that people got strong when there weren't even half steps for COC grippers. Your second point has also already been solved but it's not regularly used, file a gripper a lot then drill and thread a hole in the filed section, install a bolt. Congratulations you now have an infinitely adjustable gripper. 

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Goran Paulinič
22 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

Yes, you can. Remember that people got strong when there weren't even half steps for COC grippers. Your second point has also already been solved but it's not regularly used, file a gripper a lot then drill and thread a hole in the filed section, install a bolt. Congratulations you now have an infinitely adjustable gripper. 

There are other option to get stronger at grippers. Adjustable grippers of all sorts and grip machines. And now we can begin again who can and who cannot progress from coc 3 to coc 4 without even coc 3.5. Obviosuly some men did it. But why be like them if you can be smarter? Nobody progress from 315 bench to 405 bench just by repping 315 ad infinitum. Oh, they do they do!!! I saw them! It is completely everyday bussiness! :)

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Cannon
1 hour ago, Climber028 said:

Making the spread and the depth consistent would be easy, targeting an exact poundage would be really difficult because of the way springs are made. It also doesn't matter because even tho some people like specific numbers, you don't ever need single pound precision to get stronger. 

Yes!  Thank you.

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Hopefully
2 hours ago, Cannon said:

See I thought he meant you could make a certain gripper with a certain spring size, wind diameter, number of coils, and mounting depth so that the end result is a 130 gripper.

I would argue the economics won't work out and the end result will vary anyway. It would be easier to file an existing gripper IMO. 

 

Yes exactly 

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Goran Paulinič

Look. There are ten mash monster grippers. They cover range roughly between coc 3 and coc 4. Obviously it can be done. Those are made intentionaly with care. Every coil's position is not coincidence nor diameter of wire nor spread between handles. I never said I want one pound accuracy. Mash monster accuracy is perfect if you ask me. You can or you cannot be satisfied with current accuracy. We can go on with that to exhaustion. It is my opinion that accuracy can be better and mms accuracy is perfect.

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Hopefully
1 hour ago, Goran Paulinič said:

Look. There are ten mash monster grippers. They cover range roughly between coc 3 and coc 4. Obviously it can be done. Those are made intentionaly with care. Every coil's position is not coincidence nor diameter of wire nor spread between handles. I never said I want one pound accuracy. Mash monster accuracy is perfect if you ask me. You can or you cannot be satisfied with current accuracy. We can go on with that to exhaustion. It is my opinion that accuracy can be better and mms accuracy is perfect.

All mm grippers are progressively harder, but aside from that they arent exactly accurate. For example I think the mm3 and 4 are basically the same gripper rgc wise. 

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Fist of Fury
1 hour ago, Hopefully said:

All mm grippers are progressively harder, but aside from that they arent exactly accurate. For example I think the mm3 and 4 are basically the same gripper rgc wise. 

MM grippers have horrible progression. MM2-3 is a huge gap that most people never close. MM3-4 basically no gap, then MM5 which is significantly harder.

Difference between MM1 and 2 is like 10 pounds, then you have a 15 lbs+ gap between 2 & 3 :D 

On 3/1/2020 at 11:18 AM, Fist of Fury said:

How is the spread on these grippers?

Any info regarding this @Cannon?

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Hopefully
2 minutes ago, Fist of Fury said:

MM grippers have horrible progression. MM2-3 is a huge gap that most people never close. MM3-4 basically no gap, then MM5 which is significantly harder.

Difference between MM1 and 2 is like 10 pounds, then you have a 15 lbs+ gap between 2 & 3 :D 

Any infor regarding this @Cannon?

Yeah, so I don't know about accurate.. But they are accurate in the sense that they are progressively harder 😛 whatever that means. 

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Fist of Fury
8 minutes ago, Hopefully said:

Yeah, so I don't know about accurate.. But they are accurate in the sense that they are progressively harder 😛 whatever that means. 

Haha yes it would be kinda pointless if they were not :laugh

If anyone wants custom exact RGC I think ordering custom grippers is the way to go, or just remove handles and make them adjustable. People are too paranoid about RGC anyways, it's not a perfect system and it's more to closing grippers than just RGC. Spread, mounting, handles, knurling, all will affect the difficulty of a gripper. You don't need 3 lbs steps to improve.

And for the record, the MM-replicas, which were mass produced are not consistent. They vary like any other gripper brand.

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Goran Paulinič
1 hour ago, Fist of Fury said:

Haha yes it would be kinda pointless if they were not

 

And for the record, the MM-replicas, which were mass produced are not consistent. They vary like any other gripper brand.

Kinda pointless if they vary so much that they overlap their RGC intervals. There would be no point to make 10 different grippers if variance of each covers the same interval. It can be done better than IM ladder is. But hey. Will I change something with my opinion? After all I myself can begin to produce grippers as I like it. :)

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devinhoo
1 hour ago, Ryroza said:

Are the new Genie grippers much better than the first batch?

The Grip Genie "V2" grippers are way better. Tighter spring coils, better knurling, 18 mm handles, and they're all right turn coils. 

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Hopefully
31 minutes ago, devinhoo said:

The Grip Genie "V2" grippers are way better. Tighter spring coils, better knurling, 18 mm handles, and they're all right turn coils. 

How is the spread? :)

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devinhoo
2 minutes ago, Hopefully said:

How is the spread? :)

Spread is slightly narrower than CoC/GHP, but it's much wider than HG. Overall the grippers are much closer to CoC than they are to HG grippers.

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Hopefully
1 minute ago, devinhoo said:

Spread is slightly narrower than CoC/GHP, but it's much wider than HG. Overall the grippers are much closer to CoC than they are to HG grippers.

Okey thanks! Sounds good. Hopefully the sweep isnt super easy. 

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Cannon
3 hours ago, Fist of Fury said:

MM grippers have horrible progression. MM2-3 is a huge gap that most people never close. MM3-4 basically no gap, then MM5 which is significantly harder.

Difference between MM1 and 2 is like 10 pounds, then you have a 15 lbs+ gap between 2 & 3 :D 

Any info regarding this @Cannon?

Info regarding both points, yes!

Regarding the Mash Monster grippers, they were created by Warren at a time when rating grippers was not a thing.  A logical progression was guessed at using a consistent mounting system.  Levels 1 and 2 are both Tetting Elites.  Level 1 is a 1/4" mount and Level 2 is a 3/16" mount.  Levels 3 and 4 are both Super Elites at 1/4" and 3/16" respectively.  But if you pay attention to the certifications, Level 3 has always been "the dividing line".  There is roughly a 20 pound jump from MM2 to MM3.  The list drops off heavily after MM2. 

Further, the gap between Level 2 and Level 3 represents the exact problem we're discussing... availability of spring stock.  Even though Warren did make them "with care" to "exacting specifications", they don't actually cover the range from 150 to 200 any better than a commercial gripper line such as Grip Genie.  Also, @Fist of Fury is correct that despite the difference in specifications, the MM3 and MM4 are widely agreed to be essentially the same difficulty.  Every single person at MM3 closed the MM4 except one.  (Technically Andrew Durniat stopped at MM3 but I think most would agree that was a matter of interest, not strength.  Rob Vigeant doesn't count because when he closed the MM3 it was the highest level.  This was 2004.  Levels 4 through 6 were not created until 2005.)   

When CPW started selling Mash Monster Replicas, we realized immediately that ordering based on specs missed the mark.  We put a disclaimer on the product that in terms of a "good replica" difficulty was favored over actual specs.  We have seen with every major gripper line that the "batch" of spring stock matters just as much as the specifications.  For example, in 2014 IronMind #3 grippers were hitting numbers like 138, 139 and 140.  We have not seen those numbers since.  In fact, the closest we've come is a 143 gripper rated in November of 2016.  GHP has done the opposite.  GHP 7 first came out as solidly 150+.  Our current stock is frequently low 140s.  Different batch.  My point is that Warren's spring stock got harder overall.  Toward the end especially it was not uncommon for Super Elites to go over 200 pounds!   

Back to the MM Replicas, most of those were created by giving Warren orders for the wrong specs.  CPW would use our estimation of the difficulty of his current stock and ask for a bunch of grippers with the same, wrong mount.  Like, "Give us 25 Elites with a 5/8" mount."  Warren would make them and only stamp "MM" on one handle leaving the other blank.  Finally, I would rate them all and stamp "1" or "2" on the other handle based on the actually difficulty.  This was the only way we could hope for "good" replicas and honestly it was a lot of damn work.  And there was absolutely overlap due to the variability of springs. 

People talk about gripper variability as if it were a bad thing; some kind of defect or oversight in manufacturing.  It's actually the mechanism by which it's possible to put together a good training set.  It was also mentioned above that rating is only one element.  I totally agree and have always stated as much.  Rating tells you one useful piece of information about the gripper... pounds at the close.  The variability of grippers allowed us to put together the NAGS set of Tetting grippers.  Not by ordering grippers to any certain specs, but just by sniping production grippers with a certain rating.  I have since made three sets of IronMind grippers the same way. 

As highlighted in this post about hard to fill gaps, there are only a few problem spots which can be achieved other ways, such as filing. (And I fundamentally disagree this "ruins" a gripper.  I would not file a rare/old/treasured gripper, but filing any regular gripper makes it a valuable training tool.  I believe beyond-the-range training is one of the single best approaches to getting strong on grippers.  If you rule that out as on option, then you are just arbitrarily restricting what is possible.)  Literally the only people who care about those couple problems spots are us grip nerds.  And we can own that!  It's fun to be a grip nerd.  

Regarding spread for Grip Genie, they are commonly 2.6 to 2.75" after rating.  I did notice that GG1 is slightly wider on average, closer to 2.8 to 3".  There is some variability at the GG5 level which contributed to some of the lower ratings.  For example, the GG5s that are down around 140 are closer to 2.5" spread.  I don't think anything is under 2.5" spread.

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Cannon
2 hours ago, devinhoo said:

The Grip Genie "V2" grippers are way better. Tighter spring coils, better knurling, 18 mm handles, and they're all right turn coils. 

I agree with this assessment too.  Handle mounts are now very consistent and meet nicely.  The knurling has a nice bite which, strictly as a matter of my own personal preference, I feel is "just right".  I think it is just slightly sharper than IronMind.  I will say there are still some springs with gaps in the coils.  Visually that is admittedly not as "attractive" as a nice tight coil however we could not find any actual problem.  It does not cause any weird skew and we put a zillion reps on one to see if it would "wear out" differently and it did not.  If anything, it makes it impossible for the spring to bind.  The springs are easier to clean and, honestly, it makes for a nice smooth close.  This was also mostly observed in GG Level 1.   

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On 3/1/2020 at 7:38 AM, Ryroza said:

Maybe  Xinyi wanjia grippers will qualify in Cannonpowerworks store ,since Silvis  is now gone?!  Morgan said quality is similar to RB.

This would be a cool addition since Morgan said the quality is good and the highest level he had felt like 205

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Goran Paulinič
36 minutes ago, Cannon said:

Info regarding both points, yes!

Regarding the Mash Monster grippers, they were created by Warren at a time when rating grippers was not a thing.  A logical progression was guessed at using a consistent mounting system.  Levels 1 and 2 are both Tetting Elites.  Level 1 is a 1/4" mount and Level 2 is a 3/16" mount.  Levels 3 and 4 are both Super Elites at 1/4" and 3/16" respectively. 

I am no expert ofcourse but why mount a Super Elite spring on level 3 if you can lower the Elite coil to lets say 2/16 of an inch? There is still room for smaller jump to Super Elite. But but, regarding MMS grippers the deal is done. They are what they are and it is ok. It is just that I don't buy the "spring" argument. Grippers with lets say 10 pounds variance can be manufactured at the same price as they are now (with 20 and more variance in some cases).

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Cannon
1 hour ago, Goran Paulinič said:

I am no expert ofcourse but why mount a Super Elite spring on level 3 if you can lower the Elite coil to lets say 2/16 of an inch?

Because there is still the issue of spring stock.  This was my point in bringing up the replicas.  Towards the end I think we were putting a crazy 5/8" mount on the Super Elites so they would go in the low 180s.  Where, when the original MM4 was made, a 3/16" mount put it in the same place.  Setting the actual Mash Monster grippers aside as a done deal, this issue is still relevant to the line of grippers you are proposing.  Even if you created a line with smaller jumps, you would still have unpredictable results including the possibility that two levels of grippers could entirely change place.  We actually see this in the Baraban line where he DOES use the same spring wire at certain levels just with a different coil diameter (one of the ways to achieve what you are talking about).  In general, RB 260s are easier than RB 240s.  RB 210, 240 and 260 all have the same spring wire. 

Never mind that you are proposing some manufacturer should come to their senses and produce an entire gripper line so that what...?  We get more 190 grippers?  I still maintain that even if you tried to get this right, you would likely miss the mark and the grippers would not be very affordable to boot.  By no means am I saying your idea is bad.  Especially as a grip nerd, it would be very desirable to target certain numbers.  I just feel you have a misconception about how "easy" this would be on the scale of a production line.  If you contact someone like @acorn he could make you a 190 gripper from scratch.  He can turn the handles, wind the spring, test the exact mount for that spring to be 190 and get it done.  If I were him, I would charge you through the nose for that build.  Then you would use the gripper for year and it would not be 190 any more.   

To bring this all the way back to Grip Genie, they set out to make a gripper line.  Not custom one-offs.  I think like any other brand, their line will sell or not based on its own merits.  For my part, I'm excited they are already filling gaps at THREE trouble spots.  140, 190 and 195.  That's a win at $23. 

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Goran Paulinič

Ok. I give up. :) It was a very informative debate. Now I see more in depth what's going on. Precision cost money. If I could see production it would be even more clear to me. These things must be seen in practice.

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nimar1994
1 hour ago, Goran Paulinič said:

Ok. I give up. :) It was a very informative debate. Now I see more in depth what's going on. Precision cost money. If I could see production it would be even more clear to me. These things must be seen in practice.

By the way; I think that the fact of working together with Cannon will give Juji and Tom access to a much more specialized feedback (both from Cannon and his clients). Trying to be positive, we could see Grip Genie as a brand that skyrockets in terms of quality in the near future, in case they pay attention to such a feedback.

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