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Ancient history debate...but?


Goran Paulinič

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Goran Paulinič

Low reps (1-2) once a week or high reps (5-8) several days in week? Is there really something called "individual preference" or can success be measured by some kind of rule. Some sound criteria maybe? Long term grip enthusiast should look in their ancient logs and contemplate how really was, not how they feel it is?

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Goran Paulinič

Yea. But (bro)science on the other hand says there is small percentage of fast twich fibers in forearm muscles, so trainning has to be low reps oriented. Until you snap something. ;) I am only interested in no roids experiences (long natty trainning only, despite wide claims that roids don't help in grip sport, which is hillarious ofcourse). 

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Hopefully
25 minutes ago, Goran Paulinič said:

Yea. But (bro)science on the other hand says there is small percentage of fast twich fibers in forearm muscles, so trainning has to be low reps oriented. Until you snap something. ;) I am only interested in no roids experiences (long natty trainning only, despite wide claims that roids don't help in grip sport, which is hillarious ofcourse). 

Although I struggle to find a credible source that supports it at the moment, I am certain that it isn't bro science. Someone else can probably provide a source for that. Regarding fiber type distribution that is. 

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Climber028
5 hours ago, Goran Paulinič said:

Yea. But (bro)science on the other hand says there is small percentage of fast twich fibers in forearm muscles, so trainning has to be low reps oriented. Until you snap something. ;) I am only interested in no roids experiences (long natty trainning only, despite wide claims that roids don't help in grip sport, which is hillarious ofcourse). 

You can train in a way that changes your muscles fibers from slow to fast, or from fast to slow. It's a result of what you do, tho it does have a genetic predisposition you have a huge ability to alter it through training. Every muscle contains slow and fast twitch fibers, the ratio of this is just what gets altered. 

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jchapman
14 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

You can train in a way that changes your muscles fibers from slow to fast, or from fast to slow. It's a result of what you do, tho it does have a genetic predisposition you have a huge ability to alter it through training. Every muscle contains slow and fast twitch fibers, the ratio of this is just what gets altered. 

Slow can not be changed into fast.  

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Hopefully
16 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Slow can not be changed into fast.  

Thought so too 

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Wannagrip

It was my belief that forearms/hands were not just lumped in with other muscle groups. The old time blacksmith being one example I had in my head. I would have never been close to COC level without thinking outside the box with daily training.  Radical high total volume training.  And, more.  So, I don't even think in the norms you mentioned. :)

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climber511

There is no "rule" that you cannot find a study to support it or refute it.   :)   Whether you think it's reps or weight you are probably right.

Seriously individual differences come into play so much here it's not a question with an either or answer but a highly personal methodology that works for you.  

Questions to answer

Will you do it?  Some highly valuable programs are no fun at all to do and you may not stick to it.  Think going to absolute negative failure 

It is safe or might it have a high risk of injury?  Think going to absolute negative failure again.

Is it a program designed to meet your goals?  Hypertrophy and absolute strength are not totally compatible in many cases. 

Have you done or are you doing the "skills or technique" work necessary to utilize the strength you already have?  Most people are not taking advantage of the strength they already have -especially in Grip Sport.

In my personal case I have found it's hard to beat the hard - medium - easy - brutally hard system.

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Climber028
1 hour ago, jchapman said:

Slow can not be changed into fast.  

Not literally, but that idea is also outdated. Dr Andy Galpin has done several studies confirming that slow to fast and fast to slow both happen with intelligent training. Obviously this is a simplification, there are 5 muscle fibers that are thought to be different stages in the transition phase tho this last part is just theory for now. 

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Goran Paulinič
46 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

Not literally, but that idea is also outdated. Dr Andy Galpin has done several studies confirming that slow to fast and fast to slow both happen with intelligent training. Obviously this is a simplification, there are 5 muscle fibers that are thought to be different stages in the transition phase tho this last part is just theory for now. 

Whenever someone says "you're born with X number of Y tissue and that's it!" it attacks my immune system and I got a testicular cancer. It was found out that neurons multiply and grow after decades of "scientific" truism that it is impossible to grow brain. Those myths... I think people are prone to think of themselves as special. Like scientists have huge brain therefore they must be born different and it is good to think that brain can't grow.  Differences are inherited and they are sure they will be superior. Same in strength sport. Same elitist truisms which eventually fall.

This is my truism regarding strength. :) I think we differ in strength because of leverages not because of muscle tissue. We have different attachment points for muscles. At same nutrition, age, weight and trainning ofcourse. With exceptions ofcourse who suffer from some conditions like low testosterone etc.

Edited by Goran Paulinič
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Climber028
Just now, Goran Paulinič said:

Whenever someone says "you're born with X number of Y tissue and that's it!" it attacks my immune system and I got a testicular cancer. It was found out that neurons multiply and grow after decades of "scientific" truism that it is impossible to grow brain. Those myths... I think people are prone to think of themselves as special. Like scientists have huge brain therefore they must be born different and it is good to think that brain can't grow.  Differences are inherited and they are sure they will be superior. Same in strength sport. Same elitist truisms which eventually fall.

Well the problem there is with the public. If you read the research papers scientists never say impossible, most papers end with "and we're pretty sure it might work this way". Journalists get ahold of a paper that's a little interesting and add stuff like definitely, causes, impossible, and now you get all these wild claims. A real scientist would never say anything is 100% certain, well almost never. 

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Goran Paulinič
1 hour ago, climber511 said:

In my personal case I have found it's hard to beat the hard - medium - easy - brutally hard system.

That's ok. Now details... :)

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jchapman
1 hour ago, Climber028 said:

Not literally, but that idea is also outdated. Dr Andy Galpin has done several studies confirming that slow to fast and fast to slow both happen with intelligent training. Obviously this is a simplification, there are 5 muscle fibers that are thought to be different stages in the transition phase tho this last part is just theory for now. 

You can train muscle fibers types to kind of meet in the middle, but you can't go from one extreme to the other.

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Climber028
16 minutes ago, jchapman said:

You can train muscle fibers types to kind of meet in the middle, but you can't go from one extreme to the other.

I guess that's a percentage argument which I don't have a problem with, we don't have that precise data yet. A world class marathon runner can never become a world class sprinter, I can get behind that. But an average person can either be a great marathoner or a great sprinter depending on how they train. 

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Hopefully
2 hours ago, Goran Paulinič said:

Whenever someone says "you're born with X number of Y tissue and that's it!" it attacks my immune system and I got a testicular cancer. It was found out that neurons multiply and grow after decades of "scientific" truism that it is impossible to grow brain. Those myths... I think people are prone to think of themselves as special. Like scientists have huge brain therefore they must be born different and it is good to think that brain can't grow.  Differences are inherited and they are sure they will be superior. Same in strength sport. Same elitist truisms which eventually fall.

This is my truism regarding strength. :) I think we differ in strength because of leverages not because of muscle tissue. We have different attachment points for muscles. At same nutrition, age, weight and trainning ofcourse. With exceptions ofcourse who suffer from some conditions like low testosterone etc.

Are you saying you think people are mostly born the same, and then develop individual qualities depending on the environment they grow up in and the interests they pursue? Such as high intelligence, linguistic intelligence, drawing skills, mathematical proficiency etc? 

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Blacksmith513

I cycle it.  For all my training.. I also, use sandbags instead of barbells.. So when I add weight, I keep the reps/time under tension low.. Then build up to high reps, maybe throw in a few low rep sessions for recovery, then rinse and repeat. Same for my sledge work, but I work with 3 different weights. 

I care as much about tendon strength as muscle strength, so I add weight slowly. 

 

 

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king crusher
5 hours ago, Climber028 said:

I guess that's a percentage argument which I don't have a problem with, we don't have that precise data yet. A world class marathon runner can never become a world class sprinter, I can get behind that. But an average person can either be a great marathoner or a great sprinter depending on how they train. 

I agree. Your avg guy who likes one or the other can train hard at that endeavor and probably enjoy some level of success.  He or she is probably genetically predisposed towards one or the other to some degree or somewhere sorta in between.  

Elite individuals have chose what they are already predisposed to succeed in,  and check all the bases to get there, diet, sleep, recovery,  desire etc. You have to have it all plus be genetically gifted at that endeavor to be elite, that's why it's so rare.

There is probably some computer nerd who could   crush everyone in grip but he loves playing computer games and the only thing he grips is a soda can lol

 

People are born with a mixed amount of fast vs slow twitch fibers, some a good middle of the road mix, some are more towards one end. 

Ever wonder why some people only have girls and some only boys? Some have more X sperm and some more Y, some right in the middle. Can't change that either.

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Goran Paulinič
13 hours ago, Hopefully said:

Are you saying you think people are mostly born the same, and then develop individual qualities depending on the environment they grow up in and the interests they pursue? Such as high intelligence, linguistic intelligence, drawing skills, mathematical proficiency etc? 

Yes. I think environment has bigger role than genetics as far as tissues goes. But, you can't change leverages inside your body (unless you go under knife to change tendon positions which I don't think is very wise). Leverages are 100 % genetics. Tissues on the other hand are plastic, they morph in accordance with use. Ofcourse there are extremes among us. Sprinters which sprint faster than average guy. Both without any trainning. But that average guy can beat gifted sprinter if last one don't train enough. So, it is very plastic all this.

Edited by Goran Paulinič
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Tommy J.

I’ll stick to the question in the original post.

With me, volume seems to be what gets me stronger the quickest.

but if you’re looking for a definitive answer to what gets you (or anyone) stronger, that I feel cannot be refuted.. then the answer is time under tension. Period.

And there is no amount of natural or unnatural phenomenons (PEDs) that will change that. The time under tension has to happen to get stronger. Obviously peds can help speed the wait times up between your time under tension sessions (aka you’re workouts). But the time under tension is still non negotiable, regardless.

more TUT= more strength

less TUT= less strength

Edited by Tommy J.
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13 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

I’ll stick to the question in the original post.

With me, volume seems to be what gets me stronger the quickest.

but if you’re looking for a definitive answer to what gets you (or anyone) stronger, that I feel cannot be refuted.. then the answer is time under tension. Period.

And there is no amount of natural or unnatural phenomenons (PEDs) that will change that. The time under tension has to happen to get stronger. Obviously peds can help speed the wait times up between your time under tension sessions (aka you’re workouts). But the time under tension is still non negotiable, regardless.

Yup! TUT is paramount.

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climber511

By far the fastest strength gains I ever made were the few months I used the early version Nautilus equipment.  I had been doing a fairly traditional weight program when a friend got a job there and asked me to try this out.  I had done quite a bit of reading about it (this was back in the day when Nautilus had 10 page mini book length ads in all the magazines).   I did one set on each machine to absolute negative failure with a partner helping and "encouraging" me.  Started out 3 days a week - had to go to 2 days a week or a session every 4 days and was going to have to spread it out even more when I quit.  It was brutal - absolutely not sustainable (at least for me doing it the way I did) - but I got stronger each workout - measurably stronger. 

 

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jchapman
14 hours ago, king crusher said:

Ever wonder why some people only have girls and some only boys? Some have more X sperm and some more Y, some right in the middle. Can't change that either.

That's not what happens. Meiosis in males produce half X chromosome sperm and half Y chromosome sperm.

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