MMS versus CCS versus TNS

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Tommy J. said:

I think you should still brother. For no other reason than this:

i watched an interesting YouTube video not long ago. The video was titled something along the lines of “life regrets” or something similar. In that video, was comprised of various different people from various walks of life of various ages. And a trend I noticed with the younger ones was stuff they regretted doing or saying. And ALL of the older folks ONLY regretted something they DIDN'T do earlier in life. It was super interesting, imo.

 

that said, I took a lesson from the older and wiser folks after watching the video. I don’t want to have regrets of stuff I maybe thought about doing in my life and didn’t do, that later turned into actual regrets for not doing.

Yes, this very well may be true.  

Edited January 26, 2020 by Guest

[Fist of Fury]

12 minutes ago, Joseph Sullivan said:

I agree with this statement on rules changing all the time. That goes for anything. Whether It be for a  changing rules for a cert  or mid comp or whatever else rules are changed for. It’s hard to have legitimacy as a sport, as I am unaware of other sports changing rules to suit something . Please correct me if I’m wrong.

If rules aren’t stuck to or at least a difference in the category for the cert with people listed under the conditions they certed for because when you change the set you totally change the feat, how can it be legitimate if one set of rules for one group was harder for another group that certs? I know everything these days is about “feel good” but come on!  I could care less about gripper certs as well, for that reason. I’m sure a few others feel the same. 

Rule changes are not at all uncommon in sports. Some of them stinks, some of them are good.

[Tommy J.]

7 minutes ago, Joseph Sullivan said:

I agree with this statement on rules changing all the time. That goes for anything. Whether It be for a  changing rules for a cert cert or mid comp or whatever else rules are changed for. It’s hard to have legitimacy as a sport, as I am unaware of other sports changing rules to suit something . Please correct me if I’m wrong.

If rules aren’t stuck to or at least a difference in the category for the cert with people listed under the conditions they certed for because when you change the set you totally change the feat, how can it be legitimate if one set of rules for one group was harder for another group that certs? I know everything these days is about “feel good” but come on!  I could care less about gripper certs as well, for that reason. I’m sure a few others feel the same. 

But think about it for a second... all asterisks would do for the #3 list is make everyone prior to rule changes look weak. And do them a disservice. Yes, everyone on the #3 list certified per the rules at that time. And yes, the rules got more strict later down the road. But, not everyone on the #3 list prior to the rule change only* closed within the rules and got by by the skin of their teeth. Guys like the Gillingham’s for example certed with nearly a no set. Which technically is harder than a CCS. So putting asterisks beside the names of everyone who certified after the CCS rule was implemented would 100% diss the Gillingham’s for example. There are likely others in the same boat that certified under old rules.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

But think about it for a second... all asterisks would do for the #3 list is make everyone prior to rule changes look weak. And do them a disservice. Yes, everyone on the #3 list certified per the rules at that time. And yes, the rules got more strict later down the road. But, not everyone on the #3 list prior to the rule change only* closed within the rules and got by by the skin of their teeth. Guys like the Gillingham’s for example certed with nearly a no set. Which technically is harder than a CCS. So putting asterisks beside the names of everyone who certified after the CCS rule was implemented would 100% diss the Gillingham’s for example. There are likely others in the same boat that certified under old rules.

I think the set you used should be put next to your name. Say, if you no setted on a CCS, it should be noted. They are all totally different feats. It’s like the difference between using a knurled  inch handle and chalk  to a smooth handle with no chalk IMO. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Guest

[Tommy J.]

I’m totally okay with residing on the same list as guys who did not have to CCS. For me it’s a non factor.

[Kluv#0]

Off subject but had to share another pic. This is me with statue of the first ever COC #4 closer:)

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

I’m totally okay with residing on the same list as guys who did not have to CCS. For me it’s a non factor.

And that’s ok. This is just my opinion. We all have them. 

[Tommy J.]

2 minutes ago, Joseph Sullivan said:

I think the set you used should be put next to your name. Say, if you no setted on a CCS, it should be noted. They are all totally different feats. 

Only problem with that is it would be impossible to go back and figure out who all used what set. A handful of those guys aren’t even alive any more. And can’t even weigh in with what they might think. I think it’s a debate that should forever be left alone. Out of respect.

 

ill give some more insight on opinions of others on the #3 list.. or any “list”. some people believe that if there are guys walking the planet who could* make a said feat official, then they would* have already. I disagree with that afterthought/opinion as well. 

Although i do admit, I agree that they should*. Mainly because I’m taking the old schools advice on the regret video.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

Only problem with that is it would be impossible to go back and figure out who all used what set. A handful of those guys aren’t even alive any more. And can’t even weigh in with what they might think. I think it’s a debate that should forever be left alone. Out of respect.

 

ill give some more insight on opinions of others on the #3 list.. or any “list”. some people believe that if there are guys walking the planet who could* make a said feat official, then they would* have already. I disagree with that afterthought/opinion as well. 

Although i do admit, I agree that they should*. Mainly because I’m taking the old schools advice on the regret video.

Some people, I am one of them, only care about being strong, and don’t care about a cert. I don’t need a cert to tell me I am strong. Some want it on record, that’s great. It’s cool if one wants to, no doubt, but everyone is different. I love to compete, it’s fun, but as far as certs, the rules changing in them bothers me. But, to each their own. I guess I have mixed feelings and may change me mind. Who knows.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Guest

[Tommy J.]

7 minutes ago, Kluv#0 said:

Off subject but had to share another pic. This is me with statue of the first ever COC #4 closer:)

That sweater is friggin AWESOME!

[king crusher]

14 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

That sweater is friggin AWESOME!

That is a nice sweater, now those shoes, that's another story lol

Edited January 26, 2020 by king crusher

[Tommy J.]

1 minute ago, Joseph Sullivan said:

Some people, I am one of them, only care about being strong, and don’t care about a cert. I don’t need a cert to tell me I am strong. Some want it on record, that’s great. It’s cool if one wants to, no doubt, but everyone is different. I love to compete, it’s fun, but as far as certs, the rules changing in them bothers me. But, to each their own.

But where do angles like this end? At some point, there are also gonna be people saying each gripper should be rated and the poundage listed beside each cert. along with what set, was chalk used, blah blah blah. And then there will be the question “well who rated that guys gripper? Was it done by the same guy?” “And if it was, was it before or after he got his new RGC device?”

and maybe rightfully so... but why?

see where it can do nothing but convolute the list? And all for nothing really. For those that want more credit than closing a #3 officially can either do the 3.5 or 4, or climb the MM ladder.

 

The MM list eliminates a lot of those debates. And many sit that out for some reason as well.

 

I can say this as well, Ben Edwards literally owned, or maybe still does own?, a #3 that came in at 190lbs on an rgc. So how many guys on the list maybe closed a #3 with a mms that was a 170lb #3? Compared to a guy that CCS a 143# #3 for his cert?

[Tommy J.]

2 minutes ago, king crusher said:

That is a nice sweater, now those shoes, that's another story lol

what are thoooooooooose!

[Kluv#0]

6 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

what are thoooooooooose!

These are Jordan "why not" zero.1 but I can see why people say why? LOL. I know they don't look great but Iam just a regular dude looking for supreme comfort.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

But where do angles like this end? At some point, there are also gonna be people saying each gripper should be rated and the poundage listed beside each cert. along with what set, was chalk used, blah blah blah. And then there will be the question “well who rated that guys gripper? Was it done by the same guy?” “And if it was, was it before or after he got his new RGC device?”

and maybe rightfully so... but why?

see where it can do nothing but convolute the list? And all for nothing really. For those that want more credit than closing a #3 officially can either do the 3.5 or 4, or climb the MM ladder.

 

The MM list eliminates a lot of those debates. And many sit that out for some reason as well.

 

I can say this as well, Ben Edwards literally owned, or maybe still does own?, a #3 that came in at 190lbs on an rgc. So how many guys on the list maybe closed a #3 with a mms that was a 170lb #3? Compared to a guy that CCS a 143# #3 for his cert?

Good points, the grippers poundage  range varies wildly... another good point. Like one gripper being like a 300 pound bench and another compared to a 500 pound bench??... Jedd Johnson’s single stamp  #3 is 139, and one measured at 190???  A 51 pound difference??? No comparison at all. Wow, that’s insanely different. No 2 peeps get the same one. Like I said, to each their own. If one wants to cert, go for it. If one wants to be strong and not care either way, go for it. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Guest

[devinhoo]

I was trying to figure out numbers more than start another debate about which set is "best"... I know nobody is every going to agree.

 

10 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

I remember a couple years ago pointing this out on the forum. And got so much hate over it it was amazing. If memory serves, I called it the 20# rule of thumb. You were the only one posting at the time who agreed. Everyone else (pretty much only non #3 cert folks) insisted there was no 20# rule, and instead focused on an area of debate that no big gripper closer had ever even bothered focusing on. Which was “you need a big thumb pad to close big grippers”. And blamed the reason they had not certed the #3 on having a thin thumb pad.

i am curious to see if anyone will come at you with the same non-point about the thumb pad now. If not, then it will prove that a handful were just eagerly needing to disagree with me for whatever reason.

 

for the record, Mike was not one of those people.

 

also Mike, I think you can still do the #3 cert. and I still think you should go for it! Let Chez help you get it done.

What is the "20# rule"? That your CCS is 20# less than your MMS? I've only been in the sport for a few years so I probably missed a lot of big discussions.

My best MMS was 146, my CCS is around 120-130 (I need another gripper in between), and my TNS is around 105. That more or less fits with a 20# jump between each set. Is that what you're talking about?

[Tommy J.]

2 hours ago, devinhoo said:

I was trying to figure out numbers more than start another debate about which set is "best"... I know nobody is every going to agree.

 

What is the "20# rule"? That your CCS is 20# less than your MMS? I've only been in the sport for a few years so I probably missed a lot of big discussions.

My best MMS was 146, my CCS is around 120-130 (I need another gripper in between), and my TNS is around 105. That more or less fits with a 20# jump between each set. Is that what you're talking about?

I call it a 20# rule of thumb. If you can MMS a 170# gripper, then typically you can CCS a 150# gripper. +/- a pound or two. 

I actually apply it mainly when I see a guy doing a suspect close. Which is rare. But say a guy can just barely CCS a 150# 3. It is highly unlikely we will see that same guy all of a sudden MMS close a #4 for example.

or further, when you see a guy MMS a 200# gripper, he is ready for a 180’ish# CCS. Or a 3.5 cert if he doesn’t get a monster one like Morgan did... I reffed Morgan’s cert attempt. He got screwed big time with about a 190# 3.5. No bs. It was THAT hard!  Right after his attempts, he MURDERED my 180# 3.5 with a CCS! Even PK never CCS that exact same gripper.

I’m not entirely sure on what poundage difference between CCS and no set. For me, if I can CCS it, I can also typically no set it.

 

the only time that 20# rule doesn’t apply is if a guy either has tiny hands and can’t CCS, or if the said guy can’t MMS worth a crap. Or just doesn’t MMS at all. Then in that case, we literally don’t even have data on what that guy can MMS. So the rule would then not apply.

 

so like with any rule of thumb, there isn’t a need to live by it, or consider it gospel. Just seems to be a consistent rule I’ve noticed over the years that’s worth noting.

[Tommy J.]

2 hours ago, Hopefully said:

A little smaller than yours. Almost exactly 7.5.

Thanks, I'll get it no matter what! Can Ccs easier 3s comfortably right now, just need a little more. 

Out of likes for the day. But I dig it!

[Cannon]

I feel preferences for set are 100% tied to hand size.  

 

[Cannon]

that was fun.

But seriously, I really dislike CCS and wider. I never really got better at it despite trying for years. I think it's a matter of my own hand geometry or something. 

My best MMS was 164. I think I MAY have CCS closed a 120 #2.5 at my peak. My best ever TNS close was probably a 105 #2.  So I was losing close to 60 lbs by widening the set. (I will say that my setting strength was never all that either, and most of my closes were a fair piece wider than "parallel").

I REALLY wanted to cert on the #3 and I can't say I ever got very close. I think my case is extreme though. 

 

[Vinnie]

My best ever MMS was 155, my best block set was my GHP 7 cert but I don't know the rating (felt like 148-150 when I MMS'd it), and my best TNS was 134, all around the same time.  I have not really tried to CCS except that I tried on my COC 3 rated 150 and could not get it (not terribly far off but not a near miss either).  My MMS closes are usually pretty wide because I can't set for crap (I have been trying, since I trust Chez's advice that it's worth the effort).  This may be why I thought the MM1 was so easy even though it is supposedly rated pretty close to my max ever MMS -- bc the set is like butter.

 

[Hannes]

In my case my MMS was strong even without training it. A gripper I could CCS for singles I would do 3-4 reps with a MMS.

[SeNoLD]

On 1/25/2020 at 2:25 AM, devinhoo said:

How much of a strength drop is there from MMS to CCS, and from CCS to TNS?

Best I could figure out it looks like pretty strong folks are going form about 180-190 MMS to 150-160 CCS and then down to around 120-130 TNS.

 

 

I closed 210 MMS, 190 CCS and 170 TNS

[Hubgeezer]

3 hours ago, SeNoLD said:

I closed 210 MMS, 190 CCS and 170 TNS

Best post on this thread.

it provides the facts concisely, no editorializing, no  BS, and English is not his native language.

On top of that, the numbers themselves are outstanding.

[devinhoo]

11 minutes ago, Hubgeezer said:

Best post on this thread.

it provides the facts concisely, no editorializing, no  BS, and English is not his native language.

On top of that, the numbers themselves are outstanding.

 

Honestly yeah. That's the info I needed. PLUS it fits @Tommy J.'s 20# rule. Win win.

Edited January 27, 2020 by devinhoo