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lder

Cash event in 2020

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lder

I am moving next year's Maryland's Strongest Hands to early October (2020) and am thinking of making it a cash payout event.  This is a similar format to events that I participated in during my time competing in Long Drive golf events.  Those entries were in the $750-900 range and had 40-50 competitors paying out $10,000 to the winner.  This is a dialed down version of that format, please give me your feedback.   

There are more details available, but this is a good overall look at the contest format. 

Events:
-IM Rolling Thunder
-IM axle double overhand deadlift
-Sorinex Saxon 3” deadlift


Weight classes:
<100kg Morning contest 8am-1pm estimated time
>100kg Afternoon contest 2-7pm estimated time 
Each weight class will be a separate contest and payout accordingly based on participation.  Basically there will be two contests.  


Format: 
-Rising Bar
-Full lockout deadlift
-Unlimited attempts, first miss and you’re out
-60 second time limit per attempt
-Contest will be scored on total points based on weight lifted not placement in each event


Cost:
$250


Payout:


Payout is based on participation 80% of entry fees are paid back out.  


Cash bonuses will be available for any new all-time world record on the Axle and or Rolling Thunder


25 competitors     $500 WR bonus
1st- $2,100         
2nd- $1,050 
3rd - $525 
4th-5th - $400 
6th-8th - $250


20 competitors     $400 WR bonus
1st- $2,000 
2nd- $950 
3rd - $400 
4th-5th - $300 
6th - $250


15 competitors    $300 WR bonus
1st- $1,500 
2nd- $750 
3rd - $350 
4th-5th - $275 
 

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Vinnie

I'd suggest adding silver bullet so you would have all four arm lifting elements for Russia qualification.

As for the cash aspects, it is a fun idea but with just two weight classes, you are only going to attract the people at the top of the 100kg and the really big guys.  I am 80 kg, 85kg at my heaviest, and even though I'd have a good shot at top five in my own weight class, I doubt I would have much of a shot at being top five out of 15 in a class 40 pounds up from me.  So I wouldn't drop the entry fee.  But if you had all the weight classes, you won't get enough people in each to pay the top five.  So it may be that the sport is not big enough to make this a worthwhile proposition.  I will say that if you could get 15 in the 80kg weight class, I'd be pretty interested!  I don't think that is likely though.  Another possibility is that you offer the $250 fee as an option to be in the cash game, but have a more typical $40 or so fee for entrants who waive the chance at the payout and just want to be there to compete with their own times and their usual rivals without the hard hit to the bank account.  That would increase the attendance but would not increase the payout.

Just my thoughts, for your consideration because I imagine it's what some others would think as well, but of course others may have other view

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lder
2 hours ago, Vinnie said:

I'd suggest adding silver bullet so you would have all four arm lifting elements for Russia qualification.

As for the cash aspects, it is a fun idea but with just two weight classes, you are only going to attract the people at the top of the 100kg and the really big guys.  I am 80 kg, 85kg at my heaviest, and even though I'd have a good shot at top five in my own weight class, I doubt I would have much of a shot at being top five out of 15 in a class 40 pounds up from me.  So I wouldn't drop the entry fee.  But if you had all the weight classes, you won't get enough people in each to pay the top five.  So it may be that the sport is not big enough to make this a worthwhile proposition.  I will say that if you could get 15 in the 80kg weight class, I'd be pretty interested!  I don't think that is likely though.  Another possibility is that you offer the $250 fee as an option to be in the cash game, but have a more typical $40 or so fee for entrants who waive the chance at the payout and just want to be there to compete with their own times and their usual rivals without the hard hit to the bank account.  That would increase the attendance but would not increase the payout.

Just my thoughts, for your consideration because I imagine it's what some others would think as well, but of course others may have other view

Thanks for your input and suggestions. 

I am not a top lifter in my weight class and would not be overly competitive in an event like this, however there are already other competitions that I can test my strength and compete.  From what I can tell there are a lot of elite level grip athletes who do not compete because it is not worth their time or energy.   As an example this weekends "living legends" contest has less than 20 competitors in the legend's class.  Because of this the sport is limited to small, semi-formal, late notice contests and there is no significant growth. This format is directed at nudging those other athletes to compete and would in turn push everyone else to setup up to meet them.   I had considered adding in a one hand flask crossbar event, but not a silver bullet event.  

Edited by lder
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Vinnie
3 hours ago, lder said:

Thanks for your input and suggestions. 

I am not a top lifter in my weight class and would not be overly competitive in an event like this, however there are already other competitions that I can test my strength and compete.  From what I can tell there are a lot of elite level grip athletes who do not compete because it is not worth their time or energy.   As an example this weekends "living legends" contest has less than 20 competitors in the legend's class.  Because of this the sport is limited to small, semi-formal, late notice contests and there is no significant growth. This format is directed at nudging those other athletes to compete and would in turn push everyone else to setup up to meet them.   I had considered adding in a one hand flask crossbar event, but not a silver bullet event.  

Yeah, it would be great if the sport were bigger.  Your idea is great and if you can get the elites that way, awesome.  Your challenge will be finding enough people who think they have a shot at placing in the top 5 to spend the 250 in hopes they will make back that much or more.  Personally, I just won't drop 250 for a guaranteed loss.  I'd drop 50 for a comp just for the fun of it, sure -- I do that all the time -- and once in a while I even win my weight class depending on who goes, but it's usually only 3 to 5 people in the 80K (arm lifting) and 83K (NAGS) classes.  Anyway,  I will watch out for it, if you end up doing a non-prize entrance option, or maybe even if there are more weight classes, I'd consider going for sure.  Good luck!

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Eric Roussin
6 hours ago, lder said:

I am moving next year's Maryland's Strongest Hands to early October (2020) and am thinking of making it a cash payout event.  This is a similar format to events that I participated in during my time competing in Long Drive golf events.  Those entries were in the $750-900 range and had 40-50 competitors paying out $10,000 to the winner.  This is a dialed down version of that format, please give me your feedback.   

There are more details available, but this is a good overall look at the contest format. 

Events:
-IM Rolling Thunder
-IM axle double overhand deadlift
-Sorinex Saxon 3” deadlift


Weight classes:
<100kg Morning contest 8am-1pm estimated time
>100kg Afternoon contest 2-7pm estimated time 
Each weight class will be a separate contest and payout accordingly based on participation.  Basically there will be two contests.  


Format: 
-Rising Bar
-Full lockout deadlift
-Unlimited attempts, first miss and you’re out
-60 second time limit per attempt
-Contest will be scored on total points based on weight lifted not placement in each event


Cost:
$250


Payout:


Payout is based on participation 80% of entry fees are paid back out.  


Cash bonuses will be available for any new all-time world record on the Axle and or Rolling Thunder


25 competitors     $500 WR bonus
1st- $2,100         
2nd- $1,050 
3rd - $525 
4th-5th - $400 
6th-8th - $250


20 competitors     $400 WR bonus
1st- $2,000 
2nd- $950 
3rd - $400 
4th-5th - $300 
6th - $250


15 competitors    $300 WR bonus
1st- $1,500 
2nd- $750 
3rd - $350 
4th-5th - $275 
 

I think entries would be limited due to the lack of a “luck” factor. What you’ve described may have worked for long drive contests, and certainly works for poker tournaments. Although pros have the best chances of doing well in these sports/games, entrants can always feel that they could possibly win the event with a little luck, even if they aren’t the most skilled participants. This isn’t the case in grip. Winning the 100 kg class in the contest you are proposing would require an RT lift of about 110 kg, an axle lift of 200 kg, and a Saxon lift upwards of 110 kg. There just aren’t very many people who can lift these numbers (yet), and the luck factor is virtually non-existent.

I have a hard time imagining even five people signing up in each class.

This is not intended to be discouraging. I’m just sharing my views of what I think is a realistic outcome.

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Vinnie
3 hours ago, lder said:

I had considered adding in a one hand flask crossbar event, but not a silver bullet event

I love the flask, as do a lot of folks I know.  I just mentioned silver bullet since you had the other three arm lifting  world comp Team USA qualifier events already (and I confess in the interest of full disclosure also because SB is probably my best of the four qualifier events).  Some might day that having flask and Saxon at the same comp are two peas in a pod, but I love both, so it certainly wouldn't turn me off to the comp (plus with one being two hands and one one, and one being lockout and one cross-bar, it has some variety).  Not sure how others feel about that.  My only concern in deciding to attend would be the entrance fee -- since I am not elite enough to hope to see any return on that, I would only enter if I felt it was worth the price with no return.

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Vinnie
5 minutes ago, Eric Roussin said:

I think entries would be limited due to the lack of a “luck” factor. What you’ve described may have worked for long drive contests, and certainly works for poker tournaments. Although pros have the best chances of doing well in these sports/games, entrants can always feel that they could possibly win the event with a little luck, even if they aren’t the most skilled participants. This isn’t the case in grip. Winning the 100 kg class in the contest you are proposing would require an RT lift of about 110 kg, an axle lift of 200 kg, and a Saxon lift upwards of 110 kg. There just aren’t very many people who can lift these numbers (yet), and the luck factor is virtually non-existent.

I have a hard time imagining even five people signing up in each class.

This is not intended to be discouraging. I’m just sharing my views of what I think is a realistic outcome.

Exactly.  That's the short answer.  People with no chance won't pay the entrance fee, and there aren't enough people with a chance to pay enough fees to fund the prizes.  

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lder
43 minutes ago, Eric Roussin said:

I think entries would be limited due to the lack of a “luck” factor. What you’ve described may have worked for long drive contests, and certainly works for poker tournaments. Although pros have the best chances of doing well in these sports/games, entrants can always feel that they could possibly win the event with a little luck, even if they aren’t the most skilled participants. This isn’t the case in grip. Winning the 100 kg class in the contest you are proposing would require an RT lift of about 110 kg, an axle lift of 200 kg, and a Saxon lift upwards of 110 kg. There just aren’t very many people who can lift these numbers (yet), and the luck factor is virtually non-existent.

I have a hard time imagining even five people signing up in each class.

This is not intended to be discouraging. I’m just sharing my views of what I think is a realistic outcome.

Thank you, I appreciate all feedback I can get.  Since grip contests, as far as I know, don't have financial sponsors/backers having a fee based contest with payouts is the first step into making it financially enticing for someone to compete.  I am in the greater Baltimore/Washington DC area and there a good number of strength athletes in the 100kg+ class that can probably without specific training pull 400lbs DO on the axle.  This is for the experienced grip veterans, newcomers and current and retired powerlifting/strongman competitors.  

Has there ever been a payout scheme like this even in the larger events?  

Edited by lder
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Vinnie
4 minutes ago, lder said:

Thank you, I appreciate all feedback I can get.  Since grip contests, as far as I know, don't have financial sponsors/backers having a fee based contest with payouts is the first step into making it financially enticing for someone to compete.  I am in the greater Baltimore/Washington DC area and there a good number of strength athletes in the 100kg+ class that can probably without specific training pull 400lbs DO on the axle.  This is for the experienced grip veterans, newcomers and those transitioning into the sport after powerlifting/strongman careers.  

Have there ever been a payout scheme like this even in the larger events?  

Not sure who knows who here.  I'm a newbie like you, and my response was just my gut -- that I wouldn't pay a lot for a chance at nothing.  I'm not your target demographic though.  Eric, however, is both an elite grip athlete AND experienced promoter and organizer.  His gut is probably right on the money.

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Eric Roussin
11 minutes ago, lder said:

 

Have there ever been a payout scheme like this even in the larger events?  

I don’t believe it has.

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KapMan

Im a big guy..i like the events. I like what you are trying to do. But like vinnie. Im not paying to get my ass whooped. Im extremely weak for my size, I’m an exception to the bigger is stronger rule 😂

 

Best of luck! 

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WestSlope

There was cash for the first two or three places at the LA Fit Expo Visegrip Viking this year. Roman flew in from Russia just to complete in the Rolling Thunder. It would be cool if you could draw a group like Sorin for his Mighty Mitts comps.

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Eric Roussin

There was cash for the top three finishers overall in LA. A few hundred bucks, but the entry fee was less than $100.

Mighty Mitts was an invitation only event. No entry fee, and competitors received a stipend to attend. It can’t really be compared to this proposal.

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WestSlope
41 minutes ago, Eric Roussin said:

There was cash for the top three finishers overall in LA. A few hundred bucks, but the entry fee was less than $100.

Mighty Mitts was an invitation only event. No entry fee, and competitors received a stipend to attend. It can’t really be compared to this proposal.

Do you think this proposal could be scaled to have a better chance of succeeding? As I understand the finances of comps, even with a $40 or $50 entry fee, the promoter is typically lucky to break even.

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Eric Roussin

Maybe, but I haven’t figured out a good way to do it yet.

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Mike Rinderle

Living Legends had pretty nice cash payouts for podium finishes and a cash payout for the winner of the team event.

There were several companies that sponsored the event.

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Andrew P

Not counting trophies the payput for this years Legends is.

Legends class:

1st 600$ and a 150# Inch dumbbell (430$ value)

2nd 200$

3rd 100$

 

The Team class had a 100$ payout. 

 

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Jedd Johnson

I think you'd get more participation by dropping the IM equipment and replacing it with equipment from almost any other manufacturer.

 

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KapMan
18 minutes ago, Jedd Johnson said:

I think you'd get more participation by dropping the IM equipment and replacing it with equipment from almost any other manufacturer.

 

Why? Armlifting participation seems to be alright. 

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Mike Rinderle
46 minutes ago, KapMan said:

Why? Armlifting participation seems to be alright. 

These events will only attract thick bar specialists and people with extremely large hands.  That's cool, but you are cutting out a large portion of very strong gripsters because they would have no chance to win.  So guys that might have a chance to win it with a more varied set of events, aren't even going to enter.  To your earlier point: why blow $200 when you know you don't have a shot?

 

 

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lder

IM products have readily available, standardized equipment that is used worldwide in large grip competitions and other strength sports.  Because of that I have and will continue to use those implements for future contests.  The reason for the post was to gauge interest and see if the sport is ready to grow or keep its current course.  From the numbers I ran the $250 entry fee would be the lowest amount that would work to entice higher level athletes to compete and make it worth it for the promoter and venue.  

Edited by lder

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WestSlope
53 minutes ago, lder said:

readily available, standardized equipment that is used worldwide in large grip competitions

This criteria applies to FBBC, BSS, and AASS as well. Having two thick bar support events makes the contest less interesting. Drop the Rolling Thunder and pick up the Little Big Horn or IM Hub if you are married to IM equipment.

 

54 minutes ago, lder said:

entice higher level athletes

Who would you like to entice, for example?

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Mike Rinderle
52 minutes ago, lder said:

IM products have readily available, standardized equipment that is used worldwide in large grip competitions and other strength sports.  Because of that I have and will continue to use those implements for future contests.  The reason for the post was to gauge interest and see if the sport is ready to grow or keep its current course.  From the numbers I ran the $250 entry fee would be the lowest amount that would work to entice higher level athletes to compete and make it worth it for the promoter and venue.  

I would agree on the axle for sure.  However, the Rolling Thunder (unless you use a new one, right out of the package for every contest) has the most variation of any handle on the market.  Within a couple sessions of use, the spin starts to decrease noticeably and within 6 months to a year can't even be compared to a new handle.  It's too bad they are the most well known and used rotating handle out there, because there are several manufacturers that make a better product out of quality materials. 

The other negative on the RT is the fact that every few years they come out with a different model that can't be compared to the old numbers people were getting because the difficulty is vastly different.  

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Joseph Sullivan
11 minutes ago, Mike Rinderle said:

I would agree on the axle for sure.  However, the Rolling Thunder (unless you use a new one, right out of the package for every contest) has the most variation of any handle on the market.  Within a couple sessions of use, the spin starts to decrease noticeably and within 6 months to a year can't even be compared to a new handle.  It's too bad they are the most well known and used rotating handle out there, because there are several manufacturers that make a better product out of quality materials. 

The other negative on the RT is the fact that every few years they come out with a different model that can't be compared to the old numbers people were getting because the difficulty is vastly different.  

Which forces the user to have to buy more of the same handle..... I don’t get it at all. Why keep changing it if it is supposed to be the “standard” in rolling handles?  It should be a “one and done” purchase and remain consistent. Definitely does not jibe well as a competition and records implement due to the wicked variability between them all, new or old.

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Mike Rinderle
5 minutes ago, WestSlope said:

This criteria applies to FBBC, BSS, and AASS as well. Having two thick bar support events makes the contest less interesting. Drop the Rolling Thunder and pick up the Little Big Horn or IM Hub if you are married to IM equipment.

This.  /\

I'm better at 3" pinch (relative to the competition) than 2" pinch, so the 3" would benefit me.  However, when you add it to 2 thick bar events, you are basically saying stay home to anyone without large hands.

End of the day, you should have whatever events you want. Your contest.  But I think you are limiting the potential field considerably with those 3 events.

Either way, I have no dog in this fight.  I play the odds.  I'm in no position to bet $250 to 6X my money, when my odds of even getting my money back in 3rd place are less than 1%.  Best of luck.

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