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Raymond

Why we don't use 5x5 or 5,3,1 for grippers

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Raymond

I'll just preface this by saying it's probably not even possible to take this approach as grippers don't come in 1# increments so it's simply not possible to obtain the grippers to scale your load to the appropriate percentages of a 1RM test like it you can with a barbell.

When I read some of the training programs like the one that comes in the mini booklet they throw in with the COC grippers they all seem to suggest a challenge gripper where you attempt to close something that's greater than your current 1RM on each training session. That's a bit hard for me to get my head around as all my previous weight training has been geared around very similar formats in almost everything I've done. Most training programs revolve around a 1RM test and then the training load is calculated as a percentage of that 1RM, typically 80-90% and you train with that for a few weeks or a month (sometimes longer) and then retest the 1RM. If it's increased, which it should if the training has been scheduled properly for the stage of development of the athlete then a new training load is calculated based on that 1RM test.

So as a total newb to grippers with limited knowledge I'm wondering why it's recommended to push to or past the 1RM on each session?

Is there something different about forearm muscles that's different to the rest of the body that needs to be pushed to such seemingly extreme levels to progress with these things or does a more conventional approach work even if takes longer to get to the same level?

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jchapman

There are relatively few motor units controlling the hand.  Therefore, in order to increase force, the impulse to contract needs to increase in frequency (often referred to as "rate coding").  This is different from a squat or bench press where there are multiple large muscle groups controlling the movement.  In those cases, an increase in force is primarily achieved by recruiting more motor units.  So, there is a difference in the way the nervous system controls force development in the hands, as compared to the larger muscle groups.  

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Ivan Pupchenko

The strength of the grip depends more on the state of the nervous system, its “tone,” the ability to give powerful impulses to the muscles, than the strength of other muscle groups. This will determine the difference in training. Work in style 5 to 5 or 5 to 3 requires a constant maximum level of brain activity. What is not always possible. The principles of variation and individualization should be central. You need to learn to hear the signals of your body and select the training style that suits you.

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Raymond
Posted (edited)

OK that was a learning experience. You guys both gave fairly similar explanations albeit packaged in a different way.

So just for clarification, the somewhat limited amount of motor units in the forearm/hands need to fire at a higher rate to increase their output force while larger muscle groups have more (somewhat latent) muscle tissue that can be recruited as training intensity increases?

So is it still effective to cycle that overload and not push the limits each time or is it pretty much a staple that's required for progression?

Edited by Raymond

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Hopefully

You'll get an endless amount of opinions on this topic. It seems to be very individual so it's almost impossible to suggest what's best. People seem to progress in very different ways. 

But goal gripper attempts and very high intensity overall is a tried and proven method that's used by or has been used by many of the strongest gripper guys in the world. 

For myself that seems to be just about the only thing that works for me, although I have to cycle the type of sets I use and sometimes the intensity a little bit or I'll plateau. I go relatively easy a few weeks when progress stops and then resume high intensity again and I'm good to go. So imo cycling is necessary as usual.

Also grippers (or grip in general?) seem to have a pre-determined point of which it is takes very hard work to progress from. In contrast to other training where it is relatively easy to get good gains for many years. Just pack on some more muscle and continue to get stronger. Grippers is not that easy imo. It's a real headache to get stronger after awhile. 

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Ivan Pupchenko
7 hours ago, Raymond said:

 

Time, during which the fibers of the muscles are under load close to the maximum is  matter. When we speak about 5 by 5 scheme, it means that: 1 - the fifth rep is really last (or maximum remains for one repetition), and 2 - the time during which the fibers are under maximum load for 25 total reps enough for hypertrophy (and possibly for hyperplasia). When it comes to most of the muscles of the body, implementation of these two points is usually enough for growth. When it comes to training the muscles of the forearm, you need to remember that these muscles, like the muscles of the shins, require more work for most people.
And the fact (which is more important in my opinion) that when the approach is performed by a representative of the choleric type of character, and transitional from choleric to sanguinistic, only then 5 completed reps mean that there was forces only for 5 reps . For other types of characters, 5 means that the forces were for 10. Accordingly, when working for 5 to 5, it will not be enough to load the muscles and progress will be little. Such a person (and I am an example) needs to do 10 sets of 5 reps or even more, so that the total load is enough to stimulate the muscles to growth. The option of high-speed work is also productive.
High-speed moving actually includes more fibers than slow. But it also requires a high tone of the nervous system. A person with “slow” types of character, or transition from phlegmatic to a sanguinic person, will not be able to perform high-speed movements at every training session with maximum effort - accordingly, the number of effective training sessions in the training cycle will far from 100%. Thus and so I wrote that individualization and variation should be on top. Until you dont learn to understand your body and base of training methods that are most effective for you personally, progress will be slow.

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Hopefully
26 minutes ago, Ivan Pupchenko said:

.

So Ivan, are you suggesting that submaximal reps/singles on a gripper focusing on explosiveness and speed can be productive for increasing strength/force output on grippers? In that case I find that very interesting. 

How would you structure one of these workouts? Im naturally pretty explosive so maybe that's suggesting I could benefit from such work. 

Thanks. 

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Ivan Pupchenko
1 hour ago, Hopefully said:

 

I have a very slow nervous system. Therefore, for me, negatives, singles or a large number of approaches with the number of reps not to failure of the muscles have always been the main methods of training for all muscle groups. In working with grippers, static holds has been added to this list. I tried to close on speed - from 3 to 5 reps, 3-5 approaches. With parallel or slightly wider. for a short time it gave the result - progress. But then exhaustion of the nervous system began, usually after 5-6 workouts and I entered into stagnation for a month or two. So now I do this kind of work only on light workouts using grippers with which I can perform more than 20 reps. If your nervous system allows this kind of work, you may want to workout in the style of 1-5 reps with a maximum speed in 3-5 base approaches. Something, that takes as a basis the method of training Olympic weightlifters or other athletes developing explosive power in one movement ..
But in any case, regardless of the scheme of approaches and repetitions, the positive part of the movement, that is, the  closing, must be performed at the maximum speed at which the control over the stile will be maintained. It actually allows you to turn on extra muscle fibers. It feels like that the gripper, which you could barely close slowly once, with a fast work style becomes easy enough for 2-3 repetitions.

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Chez

There was a member who no longer posts who experimented with power lifting programs for grippers and kept workout logs documenting his progress. 

Look up his content. Particularly his logs.

i think he had some success with other aspects of grip but I don’t think as much with grippers and I don’t believe they are good for grippers in My opinion as well

https://www.gripboard.com/index.php?/profile/23070-tom-scibelli/

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Chez
Posted (edited)

I will say I believe grippers are the most central nervous system dependent grip exercise so that may be the reason he saw more progress with other areas of grip. I made progress because I learned how to get my nervous system firing on demand for grippers. Took me a while to figure out how to do that 

Edited by Chez
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Raymond
Posted (edited)

Thanks guys!

@Ivan Pupchenko I've haven't heard people apply those personality types to weight training before, is that a common way for coaches to asses people where you're from?

I sort of get the high intensity thing in regards to gripper training, when I was focused on weighted pullups and one arm chinups the 5x5 format only got me so far and I needed to do at least one  set each session that was about 95%  of my 1RM when I got a bit more advanced. I'd ladder up to that weight to switch the cns on and get it firing and then do a single lift close to my 1RM and then get a bit of volume in at a lower weight. I was doing over 90kg added weight at a bodyweight of 80kg.

 

It got a bit intense in the end it was really hard on the elbows. I'm just looking to avoid injury if I ever do get good with the grippers and need to start pushing near max.

Edited by Raymond

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Ivan Pupchenko
3 hours ago, Chez said:

I will say I believe grippers are the most central nervous system dependent grip exercise ...... I made progress because I learned how to get my nervous system firing on demand for grippers. Took me a while to figure out how to do that 

I agree with every of this word!

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Shal9097
3 hours ago, Chez said:

I will say I believe grippers are the most central nervous system dependent grip exercise so that may be the reason he saw more progress with other areas of grip. I made progress because I learned how to get my nervous system firing on demand for grippers. Took me a while to figure out how to do that 

Most trainers will say that grip strength is mostly neurological. Most people can only recruit 30-35% of their muscle fibers at one time and with training you can increase this number. 30% of a larger muscle with more fibers will put out more force than 30% of a smaller muscle, but size isn’t as important as that percentage number. Look at the forearms of guys like Jedd who has set records or Chez who has closed a #4. Their forearms are good sized, but smaller than the forearms of guys who don’t have nearly that much grip

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Ivan Pupchenko
3 hours ago, Raymond said:

 

Determining the type of nervous system, assessing the initial abilities of a person training for certain types of training and the ability of his nervous system to recover after these workouts is one of the main points for building individual training plans! and including for the choice of a specialized sport. These factors are due to both genetic factors and social factors, for example, and some others. And they are very slow to adjust, if at all. Therefore, not to take them into account when selecting training methods is absolutely wrong. ...

Coaches in any country will evaluate his future student from this side as well. Because in some sports, with some initial data of the nervous system, the athlete’s training path to the top will last longer than the average age of performances in this sport allows. For example, in weightlifting, melancholic will not be able to work in training with an intensity that will allow him to reach the level of international competitions by the age of 20. And given that in this sport, a 30 year old athlete is now quite rare on internationals (by the age of 30, the baggage of injuries and the decline of the endocrine system will not allow competing with competitors younger for 5-10 years), such a candidate, with any initial data in anthropometry and genetics, is a waste of time and strength of a coach. Modern sport is cruel. it is a conveyor on which only the best can get ...

Fortunately, grip-sport is more democratic. Here you can be stronger at 40 than you were at 25 or 30. But without taking knowledge accumulated by modern science, you will not be able to fully realize yourself.

Pulling up on one hand - regardless of the number of approaches, this is a very traumatic exercise. No matter how useful it would be, early or late arthrosis of the shoulder or elbow joints will knock on your door .. and the harder you are, the sooner this happens. Many drugs used in sports can smooth out these negative loads, but even with them, over time you will realize that there are longer ways but there are no operations to replace the joints with a ceramic prosthesis on them...

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Ivan Pupchenko
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Shal9097 said:

 

Agree!

Edited by Ivan Pupchenko

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Raymond
Posted (edited)

I get that everyone needs be assessed on an individual basis, we used to do it with blood markers and heart rate monitors etc. I've just never heard those terms applied to assessing an athlete. Interesting perspective thanks for the in depth reply to my question.

The one arm chinup was just a goal I had about 5 years ago, once I hit it I crossed it off the list and never trained for it again.As you noted they are way too hard on the joints. I can still  almost do a really ugly one but since I don't train for it's gone. I'm 50 now so the young guys can have that one.

Edited by Raymond
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Hopefully
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Ivan Pupchenko said:

 

Very interesting. 

I have a history of burning out my cns quite frequently. Both in regards to normal training and grip. Therefore I have big fluctuations in strength on everything. I never really understood why and haven't quite figured it out yet either. 

I have a true phlegmatic personality, intj. Edit, no, phlegmatic - choleric it is. What would this suggest in training approach in your opinion? 

Edited by Hopefully

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Ivan Pupchenko
5 hours ago, Hopefully said:

 

For a choleric person, the most important thing is to save nervous energy between target workouts and throw it out at the RIGHT moment. You need to deal with your psychology, try to avoid annoying factors for several days before an important workout. It is very important to look for a serious motivation that will not disappear in a couple of months. There is such a field of knowledge as neuro-linguistic programming, psychologists used this  to correct pathological conditions, but it can also be used to focus activity of healthy people (and used by coaches and psychologists of sports teams) Learn this, and you can more effectively use what nature gave you!

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Hopefully
Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Ivan Pupchenko said:

For a choleric person, the most important thing is to save nervous energy between target workouts and throw it out at the RIGHT moment. You need to deal with your psychology, try to avoid annoying factors for several days before an important workout. It is very important to look for a serious motivation that will not disappear in a couple of months. There is such a field of knowledge as neuro-linguistic programming, psychologists used this  to correct pathological conditions, but it can also be used to focus activity of healthy people (and used by coaches and psychologists of sports teams) Learn this, and you can more effectively use what nature gave you!

Allright, thanks for the response Ivan 👍

Edited by Hopefully

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